ppar3566
New Member
Cookies = things on computer.
Bikkies = things you eat.
You have the cookies while we brainstorm and I will eat the bikkies
Christian Video Gaming -- the muse thread.
- Thread starter Neirai the Forgiven
- Start date
Cookies = things on computer.
Bikkies = things you eat.
You have the cookies while we brainstorm and I will eat the bikkies
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
I will (WILL) post on this later this afternoon I have to admit that I haven't posted in a bit because I have gotten a little beyond what I have had to say and am having to come up with where to go from here.
I have to admit that I haven't posted in a bit because I have gotten a little beyond what I have had to say and am having to come up with where to go from here.
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
Mmm. Good bikkies, ppar.
(Edit) Warning: due to the shoddy nature of my thoughts in this post, this post may seem very controversial and may have you wondering if I've just lost it. If this is the case, just keep reading and go on to the next post, which will make much more sense and (hopefully) reveal what I really meant to say here.
Today I'd like to talk about the goal of Christian media, the concept of sub-creation as a method of reaching the lost, and setting the stage for some concrete game brainstorming.
Ethics and Theology and Tribal Missions
Earlier in this thread I asked what the purpose of Christian video games and other forms of Christian media would be. ppar3566 responded with the purpose being largely the promotion of ethics and values, but with a careful eye to ensuring that the games don't come out campy.
I'd say that ppar3566 is partly right. I do not, however, think that the goal of Christians in culture ought to be ethical in nature. Jesus sent out his disciples to spread the good news, not to tell the people a bunch of "oughts" "ought nots."
Now, to be fair, I do think ethics is involved. But I also know that a large part of the New Testament consists of Paul telling the Gentile churches (that's us) that we do not have to follow Jewish ethics.
Christian ethics largely come out of the result of non-Christian worlds being impacted by the good news. They are a byproduct, a result. When Paul wrote to the Ephesians, wives were part of your property and could be treated however you like. Nowadays, we believe that hitting a woman is a crime. Ethics came from the beliefs instilled by the Apostles, by faith, by the Holy Spirit.
The other problem with Christian media being used for ethical change (as a focus and not as a byproduct) is that Christians do not have a monopoly on ethical behavior. Buddhists are highly ethical, as are most other religious groups, and you can have ethically sound Athiests, agnostics, et al. Moreover, most non-Christians see Christians as a bunch of moral elitists who spend all their time trying to force ethics on everyone around them. Which is what we're often trying to do.
I'd like to propose another idea, but this idea is a bit vague so hear me out for the next little while. It might also be controversial.
As I've mentioned before in this thread and in this post, ethics is an implication of theology. We believe, theologically, that God loves all people and considers them to be inherently valuable, and wham, 2000 years later, we have social justice that abolishes slavery, gives rights to women, and works aggressively to root out oppression and exploitation.
I see the goal of Christian media is not to spread the cultural dominance of Christian religious organizations (imperialism,) or to give Christians "an alternative to the world" (escapism,) or even to spread Christian ethics. I see the goal as the spread of theology -- the study or knowledge of God.
Now, you may have noticed that I began this section with the phrase "Tribal Missions." This year at college, I'm studying "Literature and Missions." It's a course about what writers have to say about missions, both for and against. In this class, I've read two books in favor of missions, written by missionaries. They are "Peace Child" by Don Richardson and "Bruchko," by Bruce 'Bruchko' Olsen. Both books are about missionaries who reach into tribal cultures and bring them the Gospel, transforming their culture.
In both cases the missionaries do something that is very different, and very interesting. They basically re-write the Gospel as coming from the culture that they are trying to reach. They almost toss out the entire Old Testament as irrelevant and replace it with the culture's own myths.
They don't try to prove God because the cultures already know about him.
They don't try to prove the fall because the cultures know they are fallen.
They don't try to explain the law or give it to the cultures because the cultures already have taboos.
The two missionaries basically only try to communicate two messages. One is the Incarnation, that Jesus came to earth, died, and rose again.
The other is the implication of the incarnation: that through Christ we can be saved.
But saved from what?
Well, saved from the fallen state that the cultures already know exists. The sense of fallen yearning is universal, and it stems from separation from God, which is also universal.
Our Christianity tends to be rooted in Jewish thought, with the Incarnation transforming that religion into something new, something effective: renewed relationship with God.
Bruce Olsen's Motilone tribal friends believe in Jesus, too, but their faith is rooted in Motilone religious history. It's different, but it's still Christian.
Don Richardson also brought Jesus to the Sawi people, but their comprehension of God is rooted in their culture. It's different, and it's still Christian.
Now, the great thing about the "Literature and Missions" class is that it allows me to study the methods used to spread the Gospel to people in drastically different cultures in the far regions of the world. But it would be a pity to not apply the things I've learned about other cultures to my own culture.
Bruce Olsen tossed out the Old Testament because the Motilone people had no frame of reference for the Jewish narrative. No deserts, no kings, no Babylon, no Egypt, no Baal or Moabites. Jungle dwellers don't care for that.
We live in the popular culture of the Europeans and their offspring, America, Australia, Canada. At one point this culture was intrinsically linked to the heritage of the Jewish and Hellenistic cultures. We all knew the Bible, the Scriptures. We knew the Greek myths and writers, too, but they weren't as prevalent because they lacked the sense of eternity that the stories of Jesus and the ones told by the Jewish writers had.
That's changed. What most people who don't grow up in the Church know about the Bible is perhaps Moses and Noah, maybe Baby Jesus in the manger. And rules.
Lots of rules.
They've forgotten about the Bible narratives. The Jewish stories are no longer relevant to large segments of our culture. Most people know more about World War II than about Moses, Abraham, and King David.
I'm not suggesting we throw away the Old Testament entirely. It's vitally important for the purposes of teaching us about the history of God's interacting with a culture. It's vitally important for gleaning knowledge about God's character. It's a vital part of all of our theology.
But Jesus didn't tell us to go out and make disciples, teaching them about the Old Testament.
Don Richardson puts it like this, roughly: When God sent his Son, he appropriated all of the Jewish Redemption Stories, fulfilling them. It was relevant to the Jewish people because they knew all the Stories, knew all of the Laws, knew about the Garden, knew about Mount Sinai, the Calf, the Babylonians and the longing for home. For a Temple.
Then Jesus shows up and becomes the Second Adam, the new Covenant-giver, shows a way home, and makes the people his Temple.
Now, here's where I run out of knowledge: I believe we can do likewise. We can make Redemption Stories. We can appropriate the ones that exist in our culture. We can show how Jesus fulfills those stories, and through that, how Jesus fulfills our culture.
But I don't know how.
I'm out of time, so I'll finish this later. I'd like to talk about Tolkien and sub-creation, and how fantasy is the best way to transmit theology.
Until then, think on this. Poke holes in it. Let me know if I'm a heretic yet.
God bless.
(Edit) Warning: due to the shoddy nature of my thoughts in this post, this post may seem very controversial and may have you wondering if I've just lost it. If this is the case, just keep reading and go on to the next post, which will make much more sense and (hopefully) reveal what I really meant to say here.
Today I'd like to talk about the goal of Christian media, the concept of sub-creation as a method of reaching the lost, and setting the stage for some concrete game brainstorming.
Ethics and Theology and Tribal Missions
Earlier in this thread I asked what the purpose of Christian video games and other forms of Christian media would be. ppar3566 responded with the purpose being largely the promotion of ethics and values, but with a careful eye to ensuring that the games don't come out campy.
I'd say that ppar3566 is partly right. I do not, however, think that the goal of Christians in culture ought to be ethical in nature. Jesus sent out his disciples to spread the good news, not to tell the people a bunch of "oughts" "ought nots."
Now, to be fair, I do think ethics is involved. But I also know that a large part of the New Testament consists of Paul telling the Gentile churches (that's us) that we do not have to follow Jewish ethics.
Christian ethics largely come out of the result of non-Christian worlds being impacted by the good news. They are a byproduct, a result. When Paul wrote to the Ephesians, wives were part of your property and could be treated however you like. Nowadays, we believe that hitting a woman is a crime. Ethics came from the beliefs instilled by the Apostles, by faith, by the Holy Spirit.
The other problem with Christian media being used for ethical change (as a focus and not as a byproduct) is that Christians do not have a monopoly on ethical behavior. Buddhists are highly ethical, as are most other religious groups, and you can have ethically sound Athiests, agnostics, et al. Moreover, most non-Christians see Christians as a bunch of moral elitists who spend all their time trying to force ethics on everyone around them. Which is what we're often trying to do.
I'd like to propose another idea, but this idea is a bit vague so hear me out for the next little while. It might also be controversial.
As I've mentioned before in this thread and in this post, ethics is an implication of theology. We believe, theologically, that God loves all people and considers them to be inherently valuable, and wham, 2000 years later, we have social justice that abolishes slavery, gives rights to women, and works aggressively to root out oppression and exploitation.
I see the goal of Christian media is not to spread the cultural dominance of Christian religious organizations (imperialism,) or to give Christians "an alternative to the world" (escapism,) or even to spread Christian ethics. I see the goal as the spread of theology -- the study or knowledge of God.
Now, you may have noticed that I began this section with the phrase "Tribal Missions." This year at college, I'm studying "Literature and Missions." It's a course about what writers have to say about missions, both for and against. In this class, I've read two books in favor of missions, written by missionaries. They are "Peace Child" by Don Richardson and "Bruchko," by Bruce 'Bruchko' Olsen. Both books are about missionaries who reach into tribal cultures and bring them the Gospel, transforming their culture.
In both cases the missionaries do something that is very different, and very interesting. They basically re-write the Gospel as coming from the culture that they are trying to reach. They almost toss out the entire Old Testament as irrelevant and replace it with the culture's own myths.
They don't try to prove God because the cultures already know about him.
They don't try to prove the fall because the cultures know they are fallen.
They don't try to explain the law or give it to the cultures because the cultures already have taboos.
The two missionaries basically only try to communicate two messages. One is the Incarnation, that Jesus came to earth, died, and rose again.
The other is the implication of the incarnation: that through Christ we can be saved.
But saved from what?
Well, saved from the fallen state that the cultures already know exists. The sense of fallen yearning is universal, and it stems from separation from God, which is also universal.
Our Christianity tends to be rooted in Jewish thought, with the Incarnation transforming that religion into something new, something effective: renewed relationship with God.
Bruce Olsen's Motilone tribal friends believe in Jesus, too, but their faith is rooted in Motilone religious history. It's different, but it's still Christian.
Don Richardson also brought Jesus to the Sawi people, but their comprehension of God is rooted in their culture. It's different, and it's still Christian.
Now, the great thing about the "Literature and Missions" class is that it allows me to study the methods used to spread the Gospel to people in drastically different cultures in the far regions of the world. But it would be a pity to not apply the things I've learned about other cultures to my own culture.
Bruce Olsen tossed out the Old Testament because the Motilone people had no frame of reference for the Jewish narrative. No deserts, no kings, no Babylon, no Egypt, no Baal or Moabites. Jungle dwellers don't care for that.
We live in the popular culture of the Europeans and their offspring, America, Australia, Canada. At one point this culture was intrinsically linked to the heritage of the Jewish and Hellenistic cultures. We all knew the Bible, the Scriptures. We knew the Greek myths and writers, too, but they weren't as prevalent because they lacked the sense of eternity that the stories of Jesus and the ones told by the Jewish writers had.
That's changed. What most people who don't grow up in the Church know about the Bible is perhaps Moses and Noah, maybe Baby Jesus in the manger. And rules.
Lots of rules.
They've forgotten about the Bible narratives. The Jewish stories are no longer relevant to large segments of our culture. Most people know more about World War II than about Moses, Abraham, and King David.
I'm not suggesting we throw away the Old Testament entirely. It's vitally important for the purposes of teaching us about the history of God's interacting with a culture. It's vitally important for gleaning knowledge about God's character. It's a vital part of all of our theology.
But Jesus didn't tell us to go out and make disciples, teaching them about the Old Testament.
Don Richardson puts it like this, roughly: When God sent his Son, he appropriated all of the Jewish Redemption Stories, fulfilling them. It was relevant to the Jewish people because they knew all the Stories, knew all of the Laws, knew about the Garden, knew about Mount Sinai, the Calf, the Babylonians and the longing for home. For a Temple.
Then Jesus shows up and becomes the Second Adam, the new Covenant-giver, shows a way home, and makes the people his Temple.
Now, here's where I run out of knowledge: I believe we can do likewise. We can make Redemption Stories. We can appropriate the ones that exist in our culture. We can show how Jesus fulfills those stories, and through that, how Jesus fulfills our culture.
But I don't know how.
I'm out of time, so I'll finish this later. I'd like to talk about Tolkien and sub-creation, and how fantasy is the best way to transmit theology.
Until then, think on this. Poke holes in it. Let me know if I'm a heretic yet.
God bless.
Last edited:
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
Woah, that post was really vague and could really use some real clarification. Let's see if I can do better with this one:
Tolkien and Fairy Stories: Learning Redemption through Sub-Creation
Everyone reading this probably has read or has seen The Lord of the Rings. J.R.R. Tolkien is probably the best-loved fantasy writers of all time. He was also a strong follower of Christ and was a good friend of C.S. Lewis, whom he eventually convinced to also follow Christ.
Apart from being the author we all admire, Tolkien was an academic who believed strongly in the power of language and of storytelling, especially fantasy stories. His essay "On Fairy Stories" is still considered the premier work on the subject of fantasy literature.
I'll summarize and simplify his argument, below:
Tolkien believed in what he called "sub-creation." Basically, God creates the world through his words and out of nothing. We, being made in the image of God, can also create worlds using words out of nothing (with our imaginations.) Of course, God being God and us being mortal, his worlds have substance and existence (I'm typing this out on a substantial computer that I can touch and feel and that doesn't disappear when I turn around) whereas ours do not (Middle-Earth disappears when you stop thinking about it.)
But we create worlds when we create stories. Eventually, we started writing down our stories, which give our worlds a sort of permanence in that they exist whenever somebody opens a book and uses their imagination to experience what is inside. We started making movies so our worlds have two-dimensional images, so that people can see into our worlds, as if they were real.
So, we're getting better at this sub-creation thing.
Now we have video games so that people can see and interact with the worlds we create. There are good worlds that are well crafted and bad worlds that are poorly crafted. But we have them.
To Tolkien, sub-creation is an inherently good thing because it is the human race flexing the imaginative muscles that are part of the image of God.
But the benefit of sub-creation goes further than just making worlds that we can enjoy. It also can teach us about what is truly real.
See, one of the things about these worlds is that they are all experienced by the individual living in this world. When I played Final Fantasy VII, I became Cloud Strife, the protagonist. When I play World of Warcraft, I become one of a number of characters. When I read The Lord of the Rings, I become someone from that world that is listening to a story being told of a great war.
Actually, I don't. But I can believe that I do. When I encounter a well-crafted sub-created world, I believe that it is real.
In a sub-created world that I believe is real, I can learn things. I was pulling your legs two paragraphs ago. I do not really "become" Cloud Strife.. but I can believe that I am Cloud Strife and I can certainly learn what Cloud learns.
And when I turn off the PlayStation, I can retain what I have learned.
Which is why Fantasy is the best way to transmit theology, to teach redemption.
Afterthoughts: the Old Testament, Dragons, and Bob Marley
I'm fairly aware that in my last post I make some shocking statements that are borderline heretical. Today, I'm a bit more focused, so let me clarify.
The point of the Old Testament in the Bible is to chronicle the interactions between God and the Jewish nation. They are Redemption and Revelation stories. They are also, sometimes, Damnation stories (I'm curious if the filter will let me say that.) They are, in a way, the kind of stories that Tolkien said that fantasy is so good at crafting.
The Old Testament stories give us a look at how God brought the children of Israel to himself. In fact, Israel means "one who contends against God" -- it is the story of God and Israel having a conflict and God winning, through love and through Jesus. Interesting.
To a large extent in our post-Christian culture, the stories of the Old Testament are irrelevant. Now, that's not to say, as may be misconstrued from my earlier post, that we throw the Old Testament out and just focus on the Gospels. It is, on the other hand, to say that we should not assume that people know the Old Testament redemption stories.
We could devote a lot of energy to making movies and books and games to the idea of making the Old Testament stories relevant to our culture.
But let me bring up something C.S. Lewis said about the people in our culture. Lewis said that at the entrance to people's minds lay "watchful dragons." He said that when you bring a new idea to someone, if you say certain things, you will wake these dragons and when they are awake, they prevent any idea from getting to the person. The dragons sleep until they are awoken by a phrase they recognize.
Like "Jesus."
It's unfortunate, but true. When you try tell someone about Jesus they usually turn their brains off at about the first mention. The doors slam shut, the mind is closed.
The problem with teaching people about the Old Testament per se is that the dragons will slam the doors as soon as people get past the song at the front with the dancing vegetables. So we spend all of our energy and money trying to get people to enjoy hearing what they don't want to hear.
Or, potentially, we could write new Redemption stories. Bob Marley said that all he had were Redemption songs.
The purpose, in my mind, for Christian media is to create Redemption songs. To make worlds in which people can experience and learn about Grace, or God's Love for them, about his majesty and our sin, about the Incarnation and about Communion with God.
Next time I post, I want to suggest a method for designing these games, complete with two models: A turn-based fantasy RPG and a horror shooter.
Tolkien and Fairy Stories: Learning Redemption through Sub-Creation
Everyone reading this probably has read or has seen The Lord of the Rings. J.R.R. Tolkien is probably the best-loved fantasy writers of all time. He was also a strong follower of Christ and was a good friend of C.S. Lewis, whom he eventually convinced to also follow Christ.
Apart from being the author we all admire, Tolkien was an academic who believed strongly in the power of language and of storytelling, especially fantasy stories. His essay "On Fairy Stories" is still considered the premier work on the subject of fantasy literature.
I'll summarize and simplify his argument, below:
Tolkien believed in what he called "sub-creation." Basically, God creates the world through his words and out of nothing. We, being made in the image of God, can also create worlds using words out of nothing (with our imaginations.) Of course, God being God and us being mortal, his worlds have substance and existence (I'm typing this out on a substantial computer that I can touch and feel and that doesn't disappear when I turn around) whereas ours do not (Middle-Earth disappears when you stop thinking about it.)
But we create worlds when we create stories. Eventually, we started writing down our stories, which give our worlds a sort of permanence in that they exist whenever somebody opens a book and uses their imagination to experience what is inside. We started making movies so our worlds have two-dimensional images, so that people can see into our worlds, as if they were real.
So, we're getting better at this sub-creation thing.
Now we have video games so that people can see and interact with the worlds we create. There are good worlds that are well crafted and bad worlds that are poorly crafted. But we have them.
To Tolkien, sub-creation is an inherently good thing because it is the human race flexing the imaginative muscles that are part of the image of God.
But the benefit of sub-creation goes further than just making worlds that we can enjoy. It also can teach us about what is truly real.
See, one of the things about these worlds is that they are all experienced by the individual living in this world. When I played Final Fantasy VII, I became Cloud Strife, the protagonist. When I play World of Warcraft, I become one of a number of characters. When I read The Lord of the Rings, I become someone from that world that is listening to a story being told of a great war.
Actually, I don't. But I can believe that I do. When I encounter a well-crafted sub-created world, I believe that it is real.
In a sub-created world that I believe is real, I can learn things. I was pulling your legs two paragraphs ago. I do not really "become" Cloud Strife.. but I can believe that I am Cloud Strife and I can certainly learn what Cloud learns.
And when I turn off the PlayStation, I can retain what I have learned.
Which is why Fantasy is the best way to transmit theology, to teach redemption.
Afterthoughts: the Old Testament, Dragons, and Bob Marley
I'm fairly aware that in my last post I make some shocking statements that are borderline heretical. Today, I'm a bit more focused, so let me clarify.
The point of the Old Testament in the Bible is to chronicle the interactions between God and the Jewish nation. They are Redemption and Revelation stories. They are also, sometimes, Damnation stories (I'm curious if the filter will let me say that.) They are, in a way, the kind of stories that Tolkien said that fantasy is so good at crafting.
The Old Testament stories give us a look at how God brought the children of Israel to himself. In fact, Israel means "one who contends against God" -- it is the story of God and Israel having a conflict and God winning, through love and through Jesus. Interesting.
To a large extent in our post-Christian culture, the stories of the Old Testament are irrelevant. Now, that's not to say, as may be misconstrued from my earlier post, that we throw the Old Testament out and just focus on the Gospels. It is, on the other hand, to say that we should not assume that people know the Old Testament redemption stories.
We could devote a lot of energy to making movies and books and games to the idea of making the Old Testament stories relevant to our culture.
But let me bring up something C.S. Lewis said about the people in our culture. Lewis said that at the entrance to people's minds lay "watchful dragons." He said that when you bring a new idea to someone, if you say certain things, you will wake these dragons and when they are awake, they prevent any idea from getting to the person. The dragons sleep until they are awoken by a phrase they recognize.
Like "Jesus."
It's unfortunate, but true. When you try tell someone about Jesus they usually turn their brains off at about the first mention. The doors slam shut, the mind is closed.
The problem with teaching people about the Old Testament per se is that the dragons will slam the doors as soon as people get past the song at the front with the dancing vegetables. So we spend all of our energy and money trying to get people to enjoy hearing what they don't want to hear.
Or, potentially, we could write new Redemption stories. Bob Marley said that all he had were Redemption songs.
The purpose, in my mind, for Christian media is to create Redemption songs. To make worlds in which people can experience and learn about Grace, or God's Love for them, about his majesty and our sin, about the Incarnation and about Communion with God.
Next time I post, I want to suggest a method for designing these games, complete with two models: A turn-based fantasy RPG and a horror shooter.
RiverTigress
Moderator
I think I can understand where you're coming from with this idea, although personally I think CS Lewis did a better job of this than Tolkien, but Tolkien's work did succeed in helping to bring fantasy to a mainstream level of acceptance which opens the door for future authors to reach more people with the platform.
One advantage I think the fantasy genre has going for it is a lot of its fanbase is there because they've already become disillusioned or dissatisfied with what's perceived as the "real world", so there's a good chance of starting out with more fertile ground to begin with.
Fantasy, and probably other gaming genres too, also give a place to restore to collective memory important realities that we've either forgotten or had educated out of us. Take paladins for example. I've seen more than one commentator remark on the strange persistence of the paladin class throughout games despite it being a class with no real-world basis, but this is not true. Not only did real paladins exist, they were foundational to the emergence of society as we know it. While we're taught in school that western civilization is a product of Greco-Roman intellectual sophistication, it really owes much more credit to the formation of the modern banking system and the resultant triumph of mercantilism over feudalism that came from the knightly orders that arose out of the Crusades. While I haven't seen any games yet that make such a tie between existence of a divine fighting class and monetary stabilty, I think it wouldn't be hard to make an illustrated case (especially in these times!) that even if a person doesn't believe in God themselves, it's to their benefit to make sure their banker and his security system all do.
Another way I can see a game's programming helping out is in the giving of things (images, concepts, lines of scripture, etc) that give the Holy Spirit more to work with within a person. I wouldn't expect games themselves to be the actual cause of many conversions since God has "chosen the foolishness of preaching" for that, but they can create a desire for and help direct people to where they need to go so they will get to that preaching. I remember in the time before I got saved being struck with the visual image of the church in Elder Scrolls: Arena. It was one of the few colorful things in town with its cheerful stained glass windows, and it was always open which was important in that gameworld because even in the cities there were bad things that would come out to try to eat you after dark. Years later I would still often have that image come to mind coupled with the feeling that church is a good place to go, and despite having many bad experiences with going to churches where I didn't get saved because they weren't of the preaching variety, I was able to stay persistent and end up getting saved after all because God had that to work with to keep encouraging me.
Lastly (at least in this post anyway), I think that games give not only the opportunity to bring biblical ideas to the gamer, but also to reinforce God-designed principles in world mechanics that can help confirm the validity of the Bible further. Lying in wait for blood, for instance, should carry the consequences stated in Proverbs rather than being an acceptable means of income. Honest work should be available and more rewarding than looting, charity and standing for right principles should bring about some sort of blessing, and the RNG should allow for some divine influence factors. This doesn't mean you have to shut out morally bad playstyles, but sin should carry it's real consequences and righteousness should have more reward than has been traditionally done.
~ Taigris
One advantage I think the fantasy genre has going for it is a lot of its fanbase is there because they've already become disillusioned or dissatisfied with what's perceived as the "real world", so there's a good chance of starting out with more fertile ground to begin with.
Fantasy, and probably other gaming genres too, also give a place to restore to collective memory important realities that we've either forgotten or had educated out of us. Take paladins for example. I've seen more than one commentator remark on the strange persistence of the paladin class throughout games despite it being a class with no real-world basis, but this is not true. Not only did real paladins exist, they were foundational to the emergence of society as we know it. While we're taught in school that western civilization is a product of Greco-Roman intellectual sophistication, it really owes much more credit to the formation of the modern banking system and the resultant triumph of mercantilism over feudalism that came from the knightly orders that arose out of the Crusades. While I haven't seen any games yet that make such a tie between existence of a divine fighting class and monetary stabilty, I think it wouldn't be hard to make an illustrated case (especially in these times!) that even if a person doesn't believe in God themselves, it's to their benefit to make sure their banker and his security system all do.
Another way I can see a game's programming helping out is in the giving of things (images, concepts, lines of scripture, etc) that give the Holy Spirit more to work with within a person. I wouldn't expect games themselves to be the actual cause of many conversions since God has "chosen the foolishness of preaching" for that, but they can create a desire for and help direct people to where they need to go so they will get to that preaching. I remember in the time before I got saved being struck with the visual image of the church in Elder Scrolls: Arena. It was one of the few colorful things in town with its cheerful stained glass windows, and it was always open which was important in that gameworld because even in the cities there were bad things that would come out to try to eat you after dark. Years later I would still often have that image come to mind coupled with the feeling that church is a good place to go, and despite having many bad experiences with going to churches where I didn't get saved because they weren't of the preaching variety, I was able to stay persistent and end up getting saved after all because God had that to work with to keep encouraging me.
Lastly (at least in this post anyway), I think that games give not only the opportunity to bring biblical ideas to the gamer, but also to reinforce God-designed principles in world mechanics that can help confirm the validity of the Bible further. Lying in wait for blood, for instance, should carry the consequences stated in Proverbs rather than being an acceptable means of income. Honest work should be available and more rewarding than looting, charity and standing for right principles should bring about some sort of blessing, and the RNG should allow for some divine influence factors. This doesn't mean you have to shut out morally bad playstyles, but sin should carry it's real consequences and righteousness should have more reward than has been traditionally done.
~ Taigris
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
QFT and Excellence
ppar3566
New Member
To be fair I am busily finishing off a thesis ATM so am reading this in bits and pieces. So if something speaks to my statement here I apologize. I noticed that you suggested I thought Christian gaming should be ethical in nature and that it should tell be shoulds and shouldn'ts :EEK!: nothing could be further from what I am suggesting and is one of my soapboxes that I rant on about often enough here (there is some irony in that somewhere I am sure). I find it hard enough thankyou very much deciding what i should do let alone creating more stress for mself by telling others what to do. Rather I was suggesting that Christian games, if they are to exist (see previous statements) should not directly deal with the subject matter of the Christian message but rather promote a system of symbols that are likely to lead other people to consider Christ or to think seriously about their life purpose. I was suggestinga values based game system for that very purpose. 1. It can work seamlessly with other symbol systems (e.g. your Tolkin stuff). 2. The focus would not be so much on what value are right and wrong (though i am unsure given the nature of who humans are that some moral comments will not be made). The focus would be rather on getting people to think about their lives and what their values are and where they come from. I think this could actually provides a service that non-christians might actually want rather than forcing a values system on them.
I dont have the time to discuss ATM but I am increasingly starting to see that Christs death did not just lead to salvation but also restoration (and possibly some level of restoration at a cosmic level). It is at this restoration level I think that Christian games should aim. Not because it is more worthy but salvation in my experience rarely occurs from movies, books, media, or sermons but through relationship. I think by focusing efforts on restoration(i.e. getting people to think about their lives, where they sit within the world, and what ways might best help them define and live out their values) provides a much needed support to ever person that has a non-Christian friend. If I see Christian gaming being anything at all i see it as a symbol system that aids Christians in self discovery and aids non-Christians by providing a symbol system that is both wanted by non-Christian and useful in spreading the gospel of Christ. This might sound controversial but i hope to get more time to outline what I mean in slow and excruciating detail a bit later on
I dont have the time to discuss ATM but I am increasingly starting to see that Christs death did not just lead to salvation but also restoration (and possibly some level of restoration at a cosmic level). It is at this restoration level I think that Christian games should aim. Not because it is more worthy but salvation in my experience rarely occurs from movies, books, media, or sermons but through relationship. I think by focusing efforts on restoration(i.e. getting people to think about their lives, where they sit within the world, and what ways might best help them define and live out their values) provides a much needed support to ever person that has a non-Christian friend. If I see Christian gaming being anything at all i see it as a symbol system that aids Christians in self discovery and aids non-Christians by providing a symbol system that is both wanted by non-Christian and useful in spreading the gospel of Christ. This might sound controversial but i hope to get more time to outline what I mean in slow and excruciating detail a bit later on
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Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
Misconception duly axed
Actually, this concept will be crucial when I discuss making an M-rated zombie shooter as an example of a Christian video game.
RiverTigress
Moderator
Apparently Christians aren't the only ones actively pursuing this venue either...
http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090215/ap_on_hi_te/ml_mideast_searching_for_heroes
I don't know if it's good or bad since the goal seems to be watering down Islam instead of promoting its deity and fundamentals, but as they are using the same means for different purpose I thought it might be of interest to at least mention here.
http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090215/ap_on_hi_te/ml_mideast_searching_for_heroes
I don't know if it's good or bad since the goal seems to be watering down Islam instead of promoting its deity and fundamentals, but as they are using the same means for different purpose I thought it might be of interest to at least mention here.
ppar3566
New Member
Interesting. I know you are not saying this but I worry that some people might see this as "if they are doing it then we better do it". It seems to me that Christians in recent years have become increasingly reactionary and often seek to do various things because other groups are doing it. Somewhere along the line we traded our idea that we are apart from the world because we use our reason, logic, emotions to do things to build the kingdom of God with a focus on whether we do something being on the merits of the action actually doing that, to we are apart from the world because we do what they do but without all those naught words and yucky things.
On a side note a wonder whether the secularization of Islam is actually a good thing or just another symbol of a society that is more interested in making money and following the crowd than actually thinking about anything deeply. I read in New scientist this week that individuals tend towards less logical thinking when times are tough and that we receive a dopamine boost when we follow the crowd. All this to say that at some point in the future I think Christians are going to have to think about revolution rather than appropriation of media, etc, etc. Again, i tihnk if history has told us anything it is that Christianity is most effective at building the kingdom of God when it lacks authority and is subversive.
On a side note a wonder whether the secularization of Islam is actually a good thing or just another symbol of a society that is more interested in making money and following the crowd than actually thinking about anything deeply. I read in New scientist this week that individuals tend towards less logical thinking when times are tough and that we receive a dopamine boost when we follow the crowd. All this to say that at some point in the future I think Christians are going to have to think about revolution rather than appropriation of media, etc, etc. Again, i tihnk if history has told us anything it is that Christianity is most effective at building the kingdom of God when it lacks authority and is subversive.
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
QFT and Excellence again!
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
Today I'd like to talk about methodology and give some concrete examples; as promised, I will talk about turn-based fantasy RPGs, M-rated Zombie shooters, and possibly Hack'n'slash RPGs like Diablo.
Methodology
According to the D.I.S.C. system of personality tests, I am a "Creative Pattern" individual. That means I have a habit of looking at existing systems and events, putting my finger on "what's wrong with them," and coming up with revolutionary ways of fixing them. I do that with video games as well as concepts, my WoW guild, etc.
So, when I come to a game idea, I usually start with existing examples of games in particular genres, pick out what I don't like, and try revolutionize those areas. As a Christian, I tend to critique both the game mechanics and the content of the games; mechanics defined as those parts of the game that define how you play, and content defined as the overall messages in the game.
Example: Most shoot-em-ups contain violence that is gratuitous. Violence is not the problem (see below for discussion,) but I do not believe that gratuitous anything, whether violence, sex, or moralizing, has its place in a video game made by Christians. This is a content issue.
Pre-FF11 Final Fantasy games employed a turn-based battle system that at its best got annoying and at its worst was downright tedious. In FF12, this system was replaced with the Gambit system, which was much more fluid. This was a mechanics issue.
When it comes to Christians revolutionizing media, I think that we often ask "what must we do different?" It's how we get violence-less shoot-em-ups, magic-less fantasy, and grace-less holy wars. I believe that we really need to ask "What and how can we do better?" If content is the problem because it is godless, we can do better.
John (that's me, by the way)'s Rule of Cool
A game's continuation is largely based on its ability to wow people and get them to buy, based on word-of-mouth or on sheer cool factor. In order for word-of-mouth to spread, you need to get your user so impressed that she or he must tell his or her friends.
Basically, the way I see it, each genre has its own cool. Fantasy has epic battles with archaic weapns and immensely flashy spells. Shoot-em-ups have blazing guns, splattering gore, and high amounts of adrenaline. World of Warcraft has intricate raid challenges, a sense of personal accomplishment, and a highly refined social environment. Final Fantasy has story, etc.
My Rule of Cool is: If you remove the cool from any game, you need to put more cool back in. Otherwise the game will suck.
Christians are notorious for taking out the cool from existing games (the violence from shoot-em-ups, for instance) and then wondering why their games don't catch on. If you feel led to, say, remove the magic from your medieval game, you need to put in something more cool that trumps the coolness you just culled.
Or, you could revolutionize the magic in a way that makes your Christian game's magic that much more cool than anyone else's.
Not that I'm planning on doing that with my fantasy games. I like magic and I agree with what C.S. Lewis said about magic... the Incarnation is magical. It defies all logic that God would send his Son to save us. But back on topic.
Methodology (again)
In each of the following examples, I am going to point out some things that I think "need work" and then propose a solution to the problem. The games will evolve as I flesh them out, and in fact the "turn-based fantasy RPG" is probably going to be less turn-based (perhaps not at all) when I am done with it than when I start.
Also, I'm being a bit facetious or perhaps a bit opportunistic. The two examples that I am going to explore here are both based on conversations and debates that keep coming up on a regular basis around here at the Christian Gamers Alliance.
Turn-based Fantasy RPG
Game that this idea is derived from: Final Fantasy Tactics, FF Tactics Advance
Target mechanical issues: Scope, Metric-driven gameplay, repetitive class structures.
Target content issues: Escapism + that being bad, Deism
Lessons I want to teach: God as loving even after I screw up, God as involved in humanity despite our lack of awareness of this fact, and finally explorations into the nature of grace and its role in salvation.
Okay, so backstory on this game idea. Several times in the past three years I've heard Tek7 talk about Final Fantasy as a Taoist (or Humanist) game. Usually about that time DarkVirtue will tell him that it's not. They are both right. Final Fantasy is not in any way shape or form a "missions tool" to convert you into a Taoist. It is, however, strongly rooted in the soil of Taoist or simply eastern thoughts. So, the last few times that Tek7 has brought it up, I've started thinking, "I wonder what a Final Fantasy would look like if it were rooted in Christian thought?"
Now, I'm not looking at doing a Final Fantasy as opposed to a Final Fantasy tactics. The reason is three-fold. First, Square Enix is doing a pretty good job of making Final Fantasy main-title games. They have a huge budget and I do not. I don't see toppling them any time soon, nor even competing. Second, I see more "issues," both mechanical and content-based, in Final Fantasy Tactics than in FFXII. These issues can be revolutionized in order to make a great, selling, game. They can also give us ample opportunity to alter genres, whereas FFXII and its predecessors have pretty much made their own genres. The Final Fantasy Tactics games aren't so groundbreaking. Finally, I like Tactics. Turn-based fantasy RPGs are very near and dear to my heart. And I think I can make them better.
So, back to the issues I have with the games. I'd like to start by declaring what the issue is and why it is an issue, and then get propose some solutions.
Issue #1: Scope. Most Fantasy turn-based RPGs claim that they involve battles as part of large wars. See FFTactics, Fire Emblem, and a number of other titles. The problem is that these battles are extremely small scale for a war. I control 3-8 characters up against 3-18 characters and that is it. It doesn't work for the war storyline. FFTactics Advance dealt with this issue by claiming that you're in a small "clan." Your "clan" skirmishes with other small clans in highly regulated "encounters." In other words, you're in a gang fighting other gangs for turf, and the cops let you do it if you don't get out of hand.
Not so good.
First of all, it removes the glory of battle from the game by making it really petty, pointless combat. Also, it really limits the scope of the game. I'm not fighting against an evil empire or defending against an army, I'm bloodying the nose of the kid next door. Needs a solution. A way to bring back the armies in conflict motif without begging the question of "why is the army composed of 20 people?"
Issue #2: Metric-driven gameplay. In Final Fantasy Tactics, you basically play by assigning each character the best abilities you possibly can in no particularly strategic order, simply grinding up the best abilities through repeated battle. Learn new ability, try it out, repetitively use the one you like best. In FFTactics Advance, it really means you need to spam "Air Render" any time you can.
This is Metric-based gameplay, otherwise known as min-maxing. The game hands me 200-some abilities and I only use one, or at most ten. Why? Because it is the only one that makes sense to use, it's the best. It has the best range, best damage, and none (NONE!) of those annoying laws prevent me from using it.
I have a bunch of abilities that slow, poison, reduce mana, drop attack power, drop defense, etc, but I never use those, because they simply aren't as good as a straight hit to the old HP.
What we need is an innovative battle system that emphasizes teamwork and where every ability is actually useful, where you can get more done with diversity and less with cookie-cutter min/maxing.
Issue #3: Classes. This is a soapbox that I get up on more times than I like to say: Classes are so 20th century. When FF1 came out 20some years ago, classes were big, awesome, and useful. It's the 21st century and they're getting tired. They need to be removed or at least changed. Why?
Every class is essentially a different set of skills on the same gameplay, rather than being different gameplay like they should be. Sure, white mages heal and so they sort of play different, and thieves can steal and that's a bit different, but at the core they are all the same. You get XP using magic or hitting things with weapons, then you level up and unlock new abilities and gain a few stats. It's the same if you are a ninja or a sage or a white mage or a bland old fighter.
Nowhere is this more true in Final Fantasy Tactics where you can swap player classes back and forth at a whim. Each time you forget old abilities and learn new ones, with a limited number of crossover spells and a small amount of limited multiclassing. Unfortunately, this lends itself well to issue #2, metric-based gameplay. I actually don't need to be any of the classes per se, as long as I've picked up White Monk (for air render) and then specialize in something like Dragon Warrior or Gladiator that has massive attack benefits.
The Class system needs to be replaced with a system where uniqueness is valued and each character has its own method of increasing in power and winning that is not simply an overlap of everyone else's, and where the number of paths that you have taken has a drastic impact on where you are now.
I have been writing this thread for over 6 hours now, and I need a break. I will post on the other issues and the solutions to these and those issues later.
Methodology
According to the D.I.S.C. system of personality tests, I am a "Creative Pattern" individual. That means I have a habit of looking at existing systems and events, putting my finger on "what's wrong with them," and coming up with revolutionary ways of fixing them. I do that with video games as well as concepts, my WoW guild, etc.
So, when I come to a game idea, I usually start with existing examples of games in particular genres, pick out what I don't like, and try revolutionize those areas. As a Christian, I tend to critique both the game mechanics and the content of the games; mechanics defined as those parts of the game that define how you play, and content defined as the overall messages in the game.
Example: Most shoot-em-ups contain violence that is gratuitous. Violence is not the problem (see below for discussion,) but I do not believe that gratuitous anything, whether violence, sex, or moralizing, has its place in a video game made by Christians. This is a content issue.
Pre-FF11 Final Fantasy games employed a turn-based battle system that at its best got annoying and at its worst was downright tedious. In FF12, this system was replaced with the Gambit system, which was much more fluid. This was a mechanics issue.
When it comes to Christians revolutionizing media, I think that we often ask "what must we do different?" It's how we get violence-less shoot-em-ups, magic-less fantasy, and grace-less holy wars. I believe that we really need to ask "What and how can we do better?" If content is the problem because it is godless, we can do better.
John (that's me, by the way)'s Rule of Cool
A game's continuation is largely based on its ability to wow people and get them to buy, based on word-of-mouth or on sheer cool factor. In order for word-of-mouth to spread, you need to get your user so impressed that she or he must tell his or her friends.
Basically, the way I see it, each genre has its own cool. Fantasy has epic battles with archaic weapns and immensely flashy spells. Shoot-em-ups have blazing guns, splattering gore, and high amounts of adrenaline. World of Warcraft has intricate raid challenges, a sense of personal accomplishment, and a highly refined social environment. Final Fantasy has story, etc.
My Rule of Cool is: If you remove the cool from any game, you need to put more cool back in. Otherwise the game will suck.
Christians are notorious for taking out the cool from existing games (the violence from shoot-em-ups, for instance) and then wondering why their games don't catch on. If you feel led to, say, remove the magic from your medieval game, you need to put in something more cool that trumps the coolness you just culled.
Or, you could revolutionize the magic in a way that makes your Christian game's magic that much more cool than anyone else's.
Not that I'm planning on doing that with my fantasy games. I like magic and I agree with what C.S. Lewis said about magic... the Incarnation is magical. It defies all logic that God would send his Son to save us. But back on topic.
Methodology (again)
In each of the following examples, I am going to point out some things that I think "need work" and then propose a solution to the problem. The games will evolve as I flesh them out, and in fact the "turn-based fantasy RPG" is probably going to be less turn-based (perhaps not at all) when I am done with it than when I start.
Also, I'm being a bit facetious or perhaps a bit opportunistic. The two examples that I am going to explore here are both based on conversations and debates that keep coming up on a regular basis around here at the Christian Gamers Alliance.
Turn-based Fantasy RPG
Game that this idea is derived from: Final Fantasy Tactics, FF Tactics Advance
Target mechanical issues: Scope, Metric-driven gameplay, repetitive class structures.
Target content issues: Escapism + that being bad, Deism
Lessons I want to teach: God as loving even after I screw up, God as involved in humanity despite our lack of awareness of this fact, and finally explorations into the nature of grace and its role in salvation.
Okay, so backstory on this game idea. Several times in the past three years I've heard Tek7 talk about Final Fantasy as a Taoist (or Humanist) game. Usually about that time DarkVirtue will tell him that it's not. They are both right. Final Fantasy is not in any way shape or form a "missions tool" to convert you into a Taoist. It is, however, strongly rooted in the soil of Taoist or simply eastern thoughts. So, the last few times that Tek7 has brought it up, I've started thinking, "I wonder what a Final Fantasy would look like if it were rooted in Christian thought?"
Now, I'm not looking at doing a Final Fantasy as opposed to a Final Fantasy tactics. The reason is three-fold. First, Square Enix is doing a pretty good job of making Final Fantasy main-title games. They have a huge budget and I do not. I don't see toppling them any time soon, nor even competing. Second, I see more "issues," both mechanical and content-based, in Final Fantasy Tactics than in FFXII. These issues can be revolutionized in order to make a great, selling, game. They can also give us ample opportunity to alter genres, whereas FFXII and its predecessors have pretty much made their own genres. The Final Fantasy Tactics games aren't so groundbreaking. Finally, I like Tactics. Turn-based fantasy RPGs are very near and dear to my heart. And I think I can make them better.
So, back to the issues I have with the games. I'd like to start by declaring what the issue is and why it is an issue, and then get propose some solutions.
Issue #1: Scope. Most Fantasy turn-based RPGs claim that they involve battles as part of large wars. See FFTactics, Fire Emblem, and a number of other titles. The problem is that these battles are extremely small scale for a war. I control 3-8 characters up against 3-18 characters and that is it. It doesn't work for the war storyline. FFTactics Advance dealt with this issue by claiming that you're in a small "clan." Your "clan" skirmishes with other small clans in highly regulated "encounters." In other words, you're in a gang fighting other gangs for turf, and the cops let you do it if you don't get out of hand.
Not so good.
First of all, it removes the glory of battle from the game by making it really petty, pointless combat. Also, it really limits the scope of the game. I'm not fighting against an evil empire or defending against an army, I'm bloodying the nose of the kid next door. Needs a solution. A way to bring back the armies in conflict motif without begging the question of "why is the army composed of 20 people?"
Issue #2: Metric-driven gameplay. In Final Fantasy Tactics, you basically play by assigning each character the best abilities you possibly can in no particularly strategic order, simply grinding up the best abilities through repeated battle. Learn new ability, try it out, repetitively use the one you like best. In FFTactics Advance, it really means you need to spam "Air Render" any time you can.
This is Metric-based gameplay, otherwise known as min-maxing. The game hands me 200-some abilities and I only use one, or at most ten. Why? Because it is the only one that makes sense to use, it's the best. It has the best range, best damage, and none (NONE!) of those annoying laws prevent me from using it.
I have a bunch of abilities that slow, poison, reduce mana, drop attack power, drop defense, etc, but I never use those, because they simply aren't as good as a straight hit to the old HP.
What we need is an innovative battle system that emphasizes teamwork and where every ability is actually useful, where you can get more done with diversity and less with cookie-cutter min/maxing.
Issue #3: Classes. This is a soapbox that I get up on more times than I like to say: Classes are so 20th century. When FF1 came out 20some years ago, classes were big, awesome, and useful. It's the 21st century and they're getting tired. They need to be removed or at least changed. Why?
Every class is essentially a different set of skills on the same gameplay, rather than being different gameplay like they should be. Sure, white mages heal and so they sort of play different, and thieves can steal and that's a bit different, but at the core they are all the same. You get XP using magic or hitting things with weapons, then you level up and unlock new abilities and gain a few stats. It's the same if you are a ninja or a sage or a white mage or a bland old fighter.
Nowhere is this more true in Final Fantasy Tactics where you can swap player classes back and forth at a whim. Each time you forget old abilities and learn new ones, with a limited number of crossover spells and a small amount of limited multiclassing. Unfortunately, this lends itself well to issue #2, metric-based gameplay. I actually don't need to be any of the classes per se, as long as I've picked up White Monk (for air render) and then specialize in something like Dragon Warrior or Gladiator that has massive attack benefits.
The Class system needs to be replaced with a system where uniqueness is valued and each character has its own method of increasing in power and winning that is not simply an overlap of everyone else's, and where the number of paths that you have taken has a drastic impact on where you are now.
I have been writing this thread for over 6 hours now, and I need a break. I will post on the other issues and the solutions to these and those issues later.
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
Turn-based Fantasy RPG (continued)
Issue #4: Escapism. In Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, the characters are ported to a world where things are supposedly better, which is supposedly a world like Final Fantasy, where their dreams come sort of true except for two characters, one who revels in controlling the world, and one (you) who tries to get back home. The overall message is "kids, using video games to escape is wrong." I agree wholeheartedly except for one point.
When C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien made their worlds, they wanted people to believe in them. They wanted people to escape into them, because then the people would get a glimpse of what life truly could be like.
I'm listening to a lot of Trans-Siberian Orchestra lately, especially their Christmas albums, which, by the way, are thoroughly Christian in content. One of the things that is very strong in TSO's Christmas songs is the role of dreaming and how through Christ's "imaginary" kingdom of God, we who believe in that "dream world" have shaped our own world.
And so I think telling children that dream worlds are bad and dangerous is wrong.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I think that children need to dream positive worlds that strengthen them. I also think that adults need to learn to dream worlds as well. It took a lot of dreaming for me to get the nerve to start this thread.
We need a fantasy video game that dreams of worlds and times and places where the kingdom of God is closer, so that we will have something to strive for.
I think of RiverTigress's post, where she talks about the image of a church that was a real church being imbedded in her mind from playing Elder Scrolls: Arena. That image of a church kept her striving to find a true church even when it appeared that such a church might be out of reach or simply a fantasy. It kept her going until she found one. (Assuming I'm paraphrasing her post at all correctly.)
Jesus gave us a dream of a world where things were more like they are in heaven and for many centuries we've been striving to get there.
Issue #5: Deism. In many Final Fantasy games religion does exist, and gods and powers have created worlds or parts of worlds but they never do show up or do anything besides set fate into motions. As Christians we reject this view. I believe strongly that Christian games need to project the notion of divinity being involved. That being said, we also need to make sure that such divinity is not so in-your-face as to be nauseous.
J.R.R. Tolkien said that one of the things that you need to accomplish in your fantasy is to create a sense of belief. Belief in the world you create, belief in the things that you say in your story.
What damages this belief is running into elements from the primary world (the one God made) that don't fit in your fantasy world. Imagine what you would feel if, in one of the bar scenes in The Lord of the Rings, Merry and Pippin had ordered up two Coca-cola Classics. Your belief in the intrinsic realness of Middle-Earth just took a blow, didn't it?
Tolkien absolutely hated that in C.S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia, people are just getting to the good part when they run headfirst into Jesus in a cat suit. He felt that people could not really believe in Narnia the way that they could in Middle-Earth. I tend to agree: I'm always reading Narnia with an eye and an ear for what Lewis is saying about my faith life, rather than immersing myself in the world.
So, when making a Christian fantasy video game, I believe that it is important to include the divine, Jesus, and God, but to do so in ways that do not break down the boundaries of that world and make it simply a subset of this one.
Three other things must be avoided: God's involvement should not come about as a result of plot-device "miracles," as my coding and story abilities are able to create "miracles" but not Miracles, that is the Holy Spirit's business. So God should not be the force that steps in to "bang" make things better. Rather, that kind of miracle should happen between the Holy Spirit and the player, Lord willing. Again I point to RiverTigress's post in this thread.
The second thing that must be avoided is limiting God to "Fate." Once again, this is Deism. I know it seems that Tolkien limits God to fate in The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, but look again: God is also responsible for hope and for several change, and he sends a servant to guide the hobbits (Gandalf.)
Yeah, Gandalf. Gandalf is explicitly a Christian figure, he even says so himself. During the Balrog scene in The Lord of the Rings, Gandalf says "I am a servant of the Flame of A'nor" (which is the Holy Spirit.)
Thirdly, we must avoid God as being strictly something that comes from within a character. That is humanism, and frankly speaking, Final Fantasy does it so well. God is not an extension of me, nor does he come from within me. God fills up what is missing within me, yes, but that's not because he comes from within. God must be a separate person from the characters. That is not to say that one can not have an Incarnational character, but that God can not be a transcendent facet of humanity.
Now, understand that the inclusion of God in a Christian game is not mandatory in any way. I chose to include God in this game because it is about God. You may notice that in my Zombie shooter, which I will unpack next, God is rather absent. That's because this is a game about God, whereas the Zombie game is about humans.
You can do that. It's not a sin.
And God will end up coming out anyhow, because I challenge you to find something he's not involved in
A brief note on methodology again
As you may have noticed, up until now I've only outlined the issues and not given any solutions. That's not because I don't have solutions, but because I need to define the lessons I want to teach before I can give those solutions, as each solution must be informed by the lessons. In fact, the solutions will be the medium for the lessons, as I don't want the lessons to be so utterly didactic as to make the game unpalatable. See ppar's post on things we need to avoid.
Next post I will talk about the lessons and hopefully the solutions.
Issue #4: Escapism. In Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, the characters are ported to a world where things are supposedly better, which is supposedly a world like Final Fantasy, where their dreams come sort of true except for two characters, one who revels in controlling the world, and one (you) who tries to get back home. The overall message is "kids, using video games to escape is wrong." I agree wholeheartedly except for one point.
When C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien made their worlds, they wanted people to believe in them. They wanted people to escape into them, because then the people would get a glimpse of what life truly could be like.
I'm listening to a lot of Trans-Siberian Orchestra lately, especially their Christmas albums, which, by the way, are thoroughly Christian in content. One of the things that is very strong in TSO's Christmas songs is the role of dreaming and how through Christ's "imaginary" kingdom of God, we who believe in that "dream world" have shaped our own world.
And so I think telling children that dream worlds are bad and dangerous is wrong.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I think that children need to dream positive worlds that strengthen them. I also think that adults need to learn to dream worlds as well. It took a lot of dreaming for me to get the nerve to start this thread.
We need a fantasy video game that dreams of worlds and times and places where the kingdom of God is closer, so that we will have something to strive for.
I think of RiverTigress's post, where she talks about the image of a church that was a real church being imbedded in her mind from playing Elder Scrolls: Arena. That image of a church kept her striving to find a true church even when it appeared that such a church might be out of reach or simply a fantasy. It kept her going until she found one. (Assuming I'm paraphrasing her post at all correctly.)
Jesus gave us a dream of a world where things were more like they are in heaven and for many centuries we've been striving to get there.
Issue #5: Deism. In many Final Fantasy games religion does exist, and gods and powers have created worlds or parts of worlds but they never do show up or do anything besides set fate into motions. As Christians we reject this view. I believe strongly that Christian games need to project the notion of divinity being involved. That being said, we also need to make sure that such divinity is not so in-your-face as to be nauseous.
J.R.R. Tolkien said that one of the things that you need to accomplish in your fantasy is to create a sense of belief. Belief in the world you create, belief in the things that you say in your story.
What damages this belief is running into elements from the primary world (the one God made) that don't fit in your fantasy world. Imagine what you would feel if, in one of the bar scenes in The Lord of the Rings, Merry and Pippin had ordered up two Coca-cola Classics. Your belief in the intrinsic realness of Middle-Earth just took a blow, didn't it?
Tolkien absolutely hated that in C.S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia, people are just getting to the good part when they run headfirst into Jesus in a cat suit. He felt that people could not really believe in Narnia the way that they could in Middle-Earth. I tend to agree: I'm always reading Narnia with an eye and an ear for what Lewis is saying about my faith life, rather than immersing myself in the world.
So, when making a Christian fantasy video game, I believe that it is important to include the divine, Jesus, and God, but to do so in ways that do not break down the boundaries of that world and make it simply a subset of this one.
Three other things must be avoided: God's involvement should not come about as a result of plot-device "miracles," as my coding and story abilities are able to create "miracles" but not Miracles, that is the Holy Spirit's business. So God should not be the force that steps in to "bang" make things better. Rather, that kind of miracle should happen between the Holy Spirit and the player, Lord willing. Again I point to RiverTigress's post in this thread.
The second thing that must be avoided is limiting God to "Fate." Once again, this is Deism. I know it seems that Tolkien limits God to fate in The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, but look again: God is also responsible for hope and for several change, and he sends a servant to guide the hobbits (Gandalf.)
Yeah, Gandalf. Gandalf is explicitly a Christian figure, he even says so himself. During the Balrog scene in The Lord of the Rings, Gandalf says "I am a servant of the Flame of A'nor" (which is the Holy Spirit.)
Thirdly, we must avoid God as being strictly something that comes from within a character. That is humanism, and frankly speaking, Final Fantasy does it so well. God is not an extension of me, nor does he come from within me. God fills up what is missing within me, yes, but that's not because he comes from within. God must be a separate person from the characters. That is not to say that one can not have an Incarnational character, but that God can not be a transcendent facet of humanity.
Now, understand that the inclusion of God in a Christian game is not mandatory in any way. I chose to include God in this game because it is about God. You may notice that in my Zombie shooter, which I will unpack next, God is rather absent. That's because this is a game about God, whereas the Zombie game is about humans.
You can do that. It's not a sin.
And God will end up coming out anyhow, because I challenge you to find something he's not involved in
A brief note on methodology again
As you may have noticed, up until now I've only outlined the issues and not given any solutions. That's not because I don't have solutions, but because I need to define the lessons I want to teach before I can give those solutions, as each solution must be informed by the lessons. In fact, the solutions will be the medium for the lessons, as I don't want the lessons to be so utterly didactic as to make the game unpalatable. See ppar's post on things we need to avoid.
Next post I will talk about the lessons and hopefully the solutions.
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
"What I've Done": The State of Yearning for Forgiveness in Popular media.
This is the backdrop for the lessons I hope to teach in my "fantasy" game idea, spelled out here. I realize that by the time I get to a point where I can make this game, the lessons will probably be obsolete, as they probably have a 2-3 year lifetime. Oh well, for now, this is important.
One of the things that we must be aware of when crafting games to teach a lesson...
Stop.
Not "teach a lesson." Up until now, I've called it "teach a lesson" as if I know what the answer is. As if my goal was to make you see what I see. That's not the goal at all. From now on, I am going to strive to use the language of experience. These are not lessons to be taught, but experiences to have. From now on, I will try to call it "helping you experience."
Go.
One of the things that we must be constantly aware of when crafting a game that helps people experience the things of God is what the Holy Spirit is doing in culture at the time.
Otherwise, we're off on a non-God wavelength, in which case we just might as well quit pretending we're on his wavelength in any way.
One of the things that the Holy Spirit is doing in culture is teaching people that he loves them even though they have done some pretty horrible things in their lifetimes. Culture artefact 1: Linkin Park's song "What I've Done."
"What I've Done" is one of the most popular new rock songs, especially among the people who shape popular culture. That is, movie makers. I've heard "What I've Done" on the credit reels of at least 3 popular movies. It's the call of the current rock culture.
Those are the lyrics. Study them well. Let mercy come and wash away what I've done. Amen.
This is the heart of the problem. Many, many people believe that "God so loved the world..." but not me. Why? Because of what I've done.
I've done some pretty bad, low things in my life. So have you. And when it comes to accepting the love of God, those things get in the way. At least, we believe they do. The rapper John Reuben says in one of his songs "The Lord can forgive and forget/but I'm unable to do it."
Goal 1: To help people experience God's love despite what they've done.
How to do it: I think for this game I will make the main character's back story one of doing bad things. I mean that the main character will be a slave trader. He's in the middle of a war selling his countrymen to their enemies. He does this while remaining "religious," although he's really a deist, just not a "Christian deist," a "insert religion here deist."
So he's done things that are heinous.
Over the course of the game he will meet characters who he has betrayed. Some will hate him. Others will inexplicably offer grace.
Grace, by the way, is one of the acts of God working with humanity. It will be the principle one explored in this game, because it is the one that becomes the least cheesy when scripted. Scripted revelation and scripted miracles are rather cheesy.
The other thing with Grace is that I believe any grace experienced is true grace. So the person experiencing grace by playing a video game is still experiencing grace.
Goal 2: To help the player to experience grace.
Goal 3: To help the player to experience that God does in fact work in today's world.
Goal 3 will be realized through attempting to realize Goals 1 and 2.
How much to expect to accomplish
One of the things that has been discussed in this thread (by ppar) is the idea that it is not our job as Christians to tell people what they must believe. Let me take it a step further. It is not our job to make people believe that what our goals are are real. Okay, that was a garbled sentence. Let me illustrate.
Goal 3 is to help the player to experience that God does in fact work in today's world. Now, when I first wrote this out, I said "to help the player to realize that..."
That's not our job. Our job is to help them experience it. Not believe it. Not convince them that it is. To help them experience it.
Always remember that we are not the only people in this equation. The equation does not look like:
Our product + player == salvation.
It looks like:
Our product + player + Holy Spirit == salvation.
or
Player + Holy Spirit == salvation.
That last one is the bottom line. The second one is a blessing that we can have by volunteering to help the Holy Spirit along the way.
My belief is that when people experience grace, or God working, or anything of God, it will create a thirst in them for more. And then the Holy Spirit will nurture that thirst.
The first equation is humanism and blasphemy. Our product will not save people. Only Jesus does.
Our goal, then, is not to save people but to allow them to experience the truth.
The verse that I'd like to base this idea on is Ps 34.8: "Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him." This verse says to taste and see that the Lord is good. I want my video games to be a point of contact with the taste of the Lord.
That's the overall goal. To allow people to taste and see that the Lord is good.
In the future, we'll see how the three goals for this game inform how we fix the issues I have with Final Fantasy Tactics (and Tactics Advance.)
This is the backdrop for the lessons I hope to teach in my "fantasy" game idea, spelled out here. I realize that by the time I get to a point where I can make this game, the lessons will probably be obsolete, as they probably have a 2-3 year lifetime. Oh well, for now, this is important.
One of the things that we must be aware of when crafting games to teach a lesson...
Stop.
Not "teach a lesson." Up until now, I've called it "teach a lesson" as if I know what the answer is. As if my goal was to make you see what I see. That's not the goal at all. From now on, I am going to strive to use the language of experience. These are not lessons to be taught, but experiences to have. From now on, I will try to call it "helping you experience."
Go.
One of the things that we must be constantly aware of when crafting a game that helps people experience the things of God is what the Holy Spirit is doing in culture at the time.
Otherwise, we're off on a non-God wavelength, in which case we just might as well quit pretending we're on his wavelength in any way.
One of the things that the Holy Spirit is doing in culture is teaching people that he loves them even though they have done some pretty horrible things in their lifetimes. Culture artefact 1: Linkin Park's song "What I've Done."
"What I've Done" is one of the most popular new rock songs, especially among the people who shape popular culture. That is, movie makers. I've heard "What I've Done" on the credit reels of at least 3 popular movies. It's the call of the current rock culture.
Linkin Park said:
Those are the lyrics. Study them well. Let mercy come and wash away what I've done. Amen.
This is the heart of the problem. Many, many people believe that "God so loved the world..." but not me. Why? Because of what I've done.
I've done some pretty bad, low things in my life. So have you. And when it comes to accepting the love of God, those things get in the way. At least, we believe they do. The rapper John Reuben says in one of his songs "The Lord can forgive and forget/but I'm unable to do it."
Goal 1: To help people experience God's love despite what they've done.
How to do it: I think for this game I will make the main character's back story one of doing bad things. I mean that the main character will be a slave trader. He's in the middle of a war selling his countrymen to their enemies. He does this while remaining "religious," although he's really a deist, just not a "Christian deist," a "insert religion here deist."
So he's done things that are heinous.
Over the course of the game he will meet characters who he has betrayed. Some will hate him. Others will inexplicably offer grace.
Grace, by the way, is one of the acts of God working with humanity. It will be the principle one explored in this game, because it is the one that becomes the least cheesy when scripted. Scripted revelation and scripted miracles are rather cheesy.
The other thing with Grace is that I believe any grace experienced is true grace. So the person experiencing grace by playing a video game is still experiencing grace.
Goal 2: To help the player to experience grace.
Goal 3: To help the player to experience that God does in fact work in today's world.
Goal 3 will be realized through attempting to realize Goals 1 and 2.
How much to expect to accomplish
One of the things that has been discussed in this thread (by ppar) is the idea that it is not our job as Christians to tell people what they must believe. Let me take it a step further. It is not our job to make people believe that what our goals are are real. Okay, that was a garbled sentence. Let me illustrate.
Goal 3 is to help the player to experience that God does in fact work in today's world. Now, when I first wrote this out, I said "to help the player to realize that..."
That's not our job. Our job is to help them experience it. Not believe it. Not convince them that it is. To help them experience it.
Always remember that we are not the only people in this equation. The equation does not look like:
Our product + player == salvation.
It looks like:
Our product + player + Holy Spirit == salvation.
or
Player + Holy Spirit == salvation.
That last one is the bottom line. The second one is a blessing that we can have by volunteering to help the Holy Spirit along the way.
My belief is that when people experience grace, or God working, or anything of God, it will create a thirst in them for more. And then the Holy Spirit will nurture that thirst.
The first equation is humanism and blasphemy. Our product will not save people. Only Jesus does.
Our goal, then, is not to save people but to allow them to experience the truth.
The verse that I'd like to base this idea on is Ps 34.8: "Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him." This verse says to taste and see that the Lord is good. I want my video games to be a point of contact with the taste of the Lord.
That's the overall goal. To allow people to taste and see that the Lord is good.
In the future, we'll see how the three goals for this game inform how we fix the issues I have with Final Fantasy Tactics (and Tactics Advance.)
![[7F]LarryBoy](/forums/data/avatars/m/1/1106.jpg?1442680067){kind=avatar}
[7F]LarryBoy
New Member
I know the discussion has sort of moved beyond this, but I just wanted to echo and highlight the thoughts of my brother (Neirai) and others in this thread:
In order to use video games as an effective medium for presenting thoughts and ideas, you have to make something that the masses will actually buy and use. You have to be an effective company; in other words, you have to make money. You have to be able to go to the bank and get start up capital - that means presenting them with an idea that they feel is marketable. Then you have to be able to sell a product that people will buy: that means quality and appeal. Once you have established a name, and you have money you can throw around (see: Blizzard) then you can start to get a bit more wacky and still make money.
Anyway, my 2 cents, back to Neirai's well organized thoughts.
In order to use video games as an effective medium for presenting thoughts and ideas, you have to make something that the masses will actually buy and use. You have to be an effective company; in other words, you have to make money. You have to be able to go to the bank and get start up capital - that means presenting them with an idea that they feel is marketable. Then you have to be able to sell a product that people will buy: that means quality and appeal. Once you have established a name, and you have money you can throw around (see: Blizzard) then you can start to get a bit more wacky and still make money.
Anyway, my 2 cents, back to Neirai's well organized thoughts.
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
I will continue to post here, but not today... I have a midterm and class presentation tomorrow that I will be working on today instead.
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
disaster has struck. The power cord on my computer (a laptop) has caputz'd. That means that I have a very limited battery supply, probably lacking the hours required to post here... I may try write something tomorrow, but it will probably be suddenly cut short.
ppar3566
New Member
No worries. Still reading this thread and really like that you have put so much thought into it. I like the fact you have considered what you should do and what impact you expect it to have.
Just in passing
Linkin Park FTW
DISC FLT... it is a psychological abomination
Just in passing
Linkin Park FTW
DISC FLT... it is a psychological abomination
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
shameless bump to keep this on the front page so I can find it this afternoon when I *should* have a new power cord.