Christian Video Gaming -- the muse thread.

Neirai the Forgiven

Neirai the Forgiven

Christian Guilds List Manager
Hi. Prepare for a wall of text. I'm in a verbose mood today.

Preamble
One of my professors has encouraged me to get a doctorate and teach people about video games. I'd rather make them, but that sounds like one heck of a day job. So it got me thinking about brainstorming about Christians and video games and what I could teach about them and who I'd teach and about dialogue. Where better to air my thoughts than here? I mean, Tek7's already talked about the "video game curricula," we've discussed Christian video games, Christians and video games, and what it takes to be a Christian and play video games. So I thought it would be a good chance to talk about some things, hold my ideas up for review, and possibly make some headway into the big question of what my future holds.

Where I'm coming from
I've always wanted to make video games. Not "Christian video games," but video games. But I'm also a Christian. I have three overall "passions" in life: 1) Video games. 2) "Christian video games" and their sorry lot in life. 3) Impacting popular culture.

Let me explain.

I grew up playing video games a lot. Mario, Sonic, Zelda, Shining Force, Mortal Kom--whups, that's not in there -- Warcraft, Total Annihilation, Command & Conquer, Diablo II, Soul Caliber, Civilization, Final Fantasy, etc. Somewhere in there I decided that I was going to, one day, become a member of that huge tradition of amazing gaming.

I also became more and more frustrated with "Christian video games." Let me be honest here: "Christian video games" are a sorry lot. They're didactic, often theologically suspect, and years behind the time. They slam cliches of Christianity down their viewers' throats while staying campy and preachy, they can't seem to meld gameplay and Christianity while maintaining an odd ideal of what Christianity brings to the picture -- often resulting in "Christian video game" being synonymous with "cleaned up, no-gore, no-swears video game."

Let's be blunt -- who buys these? As DV pointed out, it's not Christian gamers -- they're too busy playing secular games. I'll be uncharitable and say it's two groups. One is Christian parents who want to buy video games for their kids but don't know what's good or bad, morally or otherwise, so they end up buying "the Jewels of Canaan" for their kids who actually want a copy of Metal Gear Solid 4.
The second group is people like me (before I got cynical and jaded,) Christian idealists who buy games in the hope that this game will finally be that game, the good Christian game that we will finally be able to rally behind as it takes the world by storm, converting half of America's gaming population overnight and forcing the secular gaming world to acknowledge that Christians exist and that Christian games are in fact valid in today's world. Game of the Year? Yeah...

...right. Really, we sound like Sonic the Hedgehog fans that are lining up to buy Sonic Unleashed because it will finally give us our childhood hero back. Nope.

Well, maybe halfway.

But halfway is not good enough.

It's not good enough to play a halfway good Sonic game. And it's not enough to play a halfway Christian game.

Halfway Christian games don't impact their culture.

Now, I don't want to sound all too negative (can you hear my frustration?) On the other side of my raging against Christian games being irrelevant is my idealism, still smoldering. I want good Christian games. I really want good Christian games. And I'm none too pleased that they don't seem to exist.

What's it take to make a good Christian game?

Culture
Culture is formed by the myriad of voices in it. In postmodern "popular" culture, this is no less true. In each demographic of popular culture, voices exist to inform the people. Depending on the demographic, these voices may be books, television programs, advertisements, college professors, internet cartoons, anime, etc...

Video games.

Culture, at least a segment of it, is formed by video games.

Christians have a responsibility to impact culture. Western culture was shaped by Christianity. Monogamy, emancipation, civil rights, women's rights -- these all came from Christianity. They came because the Bible impacted culture (in Christ there is neither slave nor free, man nor woman, Jew nor Gentile... and we added white nor black nor other skin tones.) Each time culture exists, it is impacted.

In the Protestant Reformation, a new voice was born. Beforehand, the voices were the Church and the Government, not much more. Sure, there were schools, and writing, but you needed voices, real people voices, to have things heard by many people. Culture was impacted in a top-down fashion. Important people said what was to be said to their servants, who in turn told you what culture was.

And in the Protestant Reformation, they made the printing press.

Christians got their hands on the printing press. The printing press could pump out pamphlets at an unforeseen rate. Thoughts could be put on paper, which could be given to anyone. You could print a Bible, let people see your opinions about the church, nail them places.

Christians used the new voice. They impacted culture.

Yeah, it split the church. Something that we aren't too proud of, I think. But it also rocked culture. People were allowed to think, challenge authority. For the first time, culture wasn't dictated by the King and the Pope and that's about it, unless people under them stand out of line. It was dictated by the King and the Pope and Martin Luther and William Tyndale and a host of other names... culture changed. The status quo was so shaken that people were able to eventually make Magna Cartas and United States of Americas.


Okay, flashback over. It's the 21st century. Printing presses are attached to all of our computers and nobody gives them a second thought. They don't impact culture much at all. In fact, books -- the master voice of the 20th century -- are having less of an impact on our culture as time goes on. What's taking their place?

The Internet. Movies. Collaborative systems, like youTube. or iTunes. Music. Advertising. Anime. Cartoons. Collectible Card games. Magazines like "Time" and "People" and "Popular Science."

And video games.

The sad part about the above list is that in each item I don't see Christians using the voice. We're letting them slide by.

Or we make our own versions, by tagging the phrase "Christian " to the front of the list.

"Christian Movies." "Christian Music." GodTube. Faithbook. "Christian Cartoons." "Christian Collectible Card games." "Christian Magazines," like "Relevant" or "CCM."

We're not popular in science. Let's not talk about "Christian anime."

And "Christian video games."

Whenever we do this, we separate what we were trying to do from what it is. "Christian Movies" aren't Movies. They occupy a different space in our perceptions. They don't make it in theaters, in stores.

If you can't find "Christian Movies" in the HOT NEW RELEASES section of your local Blockbusters or Rogers Video, you need to realize something:

They aren't impacting culture.

They claim they are, but they aren't.

Same with Christian video games. Nothing against Christians trying to make video games, but if you're not being sold at EB games, getting star reviews at Gamespot and on the front page of PCGamer, you're not impacting culture.

And if you're not impacting culture, what are you doing?

Well, you're making money from entertaining me. But so is Blizzard. And they cost 15$ a month, for a heck of a good game. So I'm not going to buy "Bibleman and the Sloth Squad (not a real game)" or "Heaven:the Game (hmm. Nah, I'll pass the opportunity)" for 35$ or even 15$ when I know WoW is going to kick the pants off of them, in terms of entertainment, price, and length of playtime.

The other thing "Christian " stuff is doing is entrenching my campy Christian life. I'm being more and more separated from the world by my "morally superior" games. It's making me less and less relevant to the world. It's making me think "Christian " is good and everything else is evil. So a "Christian " Jihad sim is good, but a secular game that focuses on fellowship, teamwork, and interaction is bad.

This is why I don't play Christian video games anymore.


Now, you've heard my ire. I have to run to class. When I come back I'll talk about how to make Christian video games without tacking a "Christian " onto it.
 
I agree wholeheartedly. I do not understand why we need the "Christian" tag-line on anything. Let music be music, movies be movies, and games be games.
 
What would be really cool is game with a symbolic or allegorical storyline that ivolves the players in a world that isn't our own but has similar principles with a good heaping of fantasy/sci-fi, choices that become our own whilst pointing us to the ultimate destination that makes us become who we were intended to be before the fall. After reaching that stage, we are part of a larger picture where there's going to be this insane battle...yeah, I know people have done this already but I'm talking something better than Fable or other RPG's. Not so much Sim. But it would be awesome.
 
I really like what you have written here and I especially agree with the 'Christian' lable and its frequently decremental effects. Indeed it kind of brings out my cynical side in that I am not so sure that it is an unattended side effect that only parents and idealists buy the games. If you are a developer that has limited resources and possible content it makes little sense to compete with developers without such limitations on gameplay. Thus by targeting their product at parents and idealists you are targeting at a market whose primary concern is not game play. Indeed, it is not uncommon for businesses to create and market products not on functionality but on how it adds to the identity of the potential purchaser. In other words I wonder whether Christian developers sales come purely from the label christian and nothing else (which I am sure they are aware of this) and thus it would make little commercial sense to pour money into quality game play or story, particularly given the limitations. I mean we have enough evidence that this occurs with Christian themed products for it not to be to cynical I think. I mean WWJD seems to be to American Christians Consumers what Hello Kitty is to Japanese teenage girls. WWJD products are sold purely by the label and not due to functionality or quality.

For my 2 cents worth I see the future of Christian influenced games to be in the indie market, where developers can focus more on creativity and gameplay and be less concerned with commercial interests. If it is done right there then maybe a quality mainstream release is possible.
 
Okay, I want to come back to this thread and really think this topic over with other Christian gamers. But first:
ppar3566 said:
I mean WWJD seems to be to American Christians Consumers what Hello Kitty is to Japanese teenage girls.
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This is possibly the most awesome quote on the forums in recent memory. If my forums signature wasn't already as large as the rules allow, I would add it to my sig.
 
ppar3566 said:
For my 2 cents worth I see the future of Christian influenced games to be in the indie market, where developers can focus more on creativity and gameplay and be less concerned with commercial interests. If it is done right there then maybe a quality mainstream release is possible.
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I find it hard to picture a game where Christianity itself could define the game. In fact I will go so far as to say that more secular developers help spread Christian morals then any "Christian" development group has done. Many games are based on the idea that there is evil and you need to stop it. Within that there is often times the struggle upon the moral boundaries, weather it is having been misinformed causing you to kill innocent people or avoiding mowing down innocent pedestrians (btw I love doing that for some reason...).

Rather then focusing on being a Christian group and making Christian products, I think it would be more important to develop quality products and say (but not smearing it in people's faces) that you are a Christian led group. In fact I would go so far as to NOT advertise you are a "Christian" group. Most of the companies that openly broadcast themselves as Christian often end up failing under some context as they set themselves up to fail and ultimately fail at their original goal. Don't exclude non Christians (incl. developers) and make the game enjoyable to everyone. Half the people who play the game probably wont even care, the others will probably read it and forget about it the next week.

Christian music works because it is basically poetry. Anyone can sit down and listen/read to it, but without the contextual knowledge and understanding they will not understand it. Games are much the same way as you are asking the person to play the character or role. As soon as you start inserting foreign elements into the gameplay then you confuse and make the game less enjoyable. Most games are shallow and highly visual, this works extremely well as a person is playing a game for entertainment. In most cases the person will completely forget anything you try to teach via a game unless it is necessary in and of the game itself (which is a bad idea as most users will get pissed off at the point where you have a wall of text and they need to use reading comprehension).

/random incoherent rant after 3 bottles of mountain dew <3
 
vibrokatana said:
I find it hard to picture a game where Christianity itself could define the game. In fact I will go so far as to say that more secular developers help spread Christian morals then any "Christian" development group has done. Many games are based on the idea that there is evil and you need to stop it. Within that there is often times the struggle upon the moral boundaries, weather it is having been misinformed causing you to kill innocent people or avoiding mowing down innocent pedestrians (btw I love doing that for some reason...).

Rather then focusing on being a Christian group and making Christian products, I think it would be more important to develop quality products and say (but not smearing it in people's faces) that you are a Christian led group. In fact I would go so far as to NOT advertise you are a "Christian" group. Most of the companies that openly broadcast themselves as Christian often end up failing under some context as they set themselves up to fail and ultimately fail at their original goal. Don't exclude non Christians (incl. developers) and make the game enjoyable to everyone. Half the people who play the game probably wont even care, the others will probably read it and forget about it the next week.
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Yeppers I agree, this is a similar point to one Tek and I made in the Christian video game conference thread a while back - hence the fact I suggested indie Christian influenced games rather than Christian games. The point I think that was made in the previous thread was something along the lines of the Christian morals, etc were best translated through sub text rather than overt Christian messages. Something that C.S. Lewis and Tolkien did so well.

I suppose following on from this my question is not so much whether Christian commercial games are a good idea but whether good Christian commercial games are actually a real world possibility. For my money I think not and here is why. Capitalism operates effectively by removing companies that a) do not make products that meet customers needs and b) do not make efficient use of available resource to make those products in a manner that results in a profit margin that can sustain an orgainsation. With this in mind could a good, commercially successful, Christian themed game actually be made. I think not. The reason why is that given the nature of the industry, Christian game developers simply can not realistically compete on the basis of game play, graphics or storyline because the resources are simply not available. Thus, for Christian game developers to be successful they need to figure out what there product is. It is my belief that either deliberately or as a result of trial and error, commercially successful Christian game developers will inevitably work out that there product is not game itself but rather the Christian packaging that surrounds it (WWJD lunch boxes and sharpeners anyone). Knowing that this is the product and not really the game content itself actually game play substance is likely to be seen as requiring resources that are a) not really available b) not really needed if the product is really just the Christian packaging.

In summary, people simply don't buy Christian games because they are good they buy them cause they are Christian, therefore if any company decides to dedicate large scale resources to aspects of their product that consumers are not really interested in (gameplay) or opposed to (i.e. some storyline techniques that work well in games such as well utalised violence and morally ambiguous storyline) are going to find themselves out of the industry real quick. I think it is sad to say that modern mainstream culture is largely a product of financial constraints and profit margins and real culture progression via media really only occurs on the fringes (indie music, films, games, etc.).

I think it is sad but true to say that as it stands a quality Christian game that is commercially successful is simply not really possible. It is not just Christian games here, I think almost any product that is conscience or values driven rather than commercially driven. I think it somewhat true to say that often quality substance with a worthwhile message are largely to resource heavy to ever really gain a strong foothold in mainstream culture. Though the occasional product might pop-up from time to time a sustained industry is just not possible. Really I think untill the mainstream gate keepers (distributors, retailers, etc) start to consider value beyond simply monetary and maybe start taking their triple bottom line stuff seriously I think if you really want any substance as well as quality in any type of media maintstream will not be the place to go.

Indie games that do not have such a large commercial constraint are another manner. It is here I am with you VK that the Christian element is likely to be most successful it is an influence rather than the thing itself
 
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Alright, I'm back. Before I start on my new rant, I'd like to interact with ppar3566 and vibrokatana, as well as kajunlassgotcha:

VK: I agree that pumping out "Christian games" should be secondary, with limitations, to producing good quality games. I do not think that God is any way glorified by anything that could be described as second-rate quality. That being said, we also have a responsibility to the great commission... although what the great commission entails is a bit contested, and its relevance to this discussion will not come forth until quite a bit later.

ppar: I accept where you are coming from, with your comments on indie games being the future of Christian gaming. Nevertheless, so far I reject the idea that Christian games cannot be good and commercially successful. The question of how to do that is what I am attempting to explore in this thread. Perhaps you are right and that will come out in this thread. Right now I am interested in exploring the possibility, however slim it may be, of successfully blending Christian content with gameplay in a way that is commercially successful. As I stated in the first post, a game that is not commercially successful (or wildly indie-successful, which might actually be harder, and then I'd have to sell out) is not impacting culture.

Please don't read the previous paragraph as me brushing or attempting to brush you off -- I really do appreciate and need your insights, and your indie-viewpoint to be present in this conversation.

kajunlass: ultimately, your comment is where this will perhaps be heading. However, at this point I'd rather not worry about what would be a good Christian game before the ground work is laid. We need to discuss what is appropriate content in Christian games before we talk about the forms and genres that these games will take, otherwise we will only end up with a set of "Christian video games" in Final Fantasy paint, or a bunch of Final Fantasy games in "Christian video game" paint. Neither of which will sell or impact culture.

So hang tight. I see some vision in you, I have many visions myself, but I'd like to lay some ground work before we get there.


And so, on to the rant!

Christian Content in video games
When I started out working on this post a week ago, I had this long rant about theology and how we can incorporate theology into games and which theology models worked better with which games and so on and so forth, and then I realized it was all wrong-headed. So this time I'm going to make a different post, one which talks about a concept of spreading the good news through imagery, and foreshadowing. Foreshadowing is when you give a person an image of what is to come later, so that they aren't surprised or understand when you give them the whole picture later. Foreshadowing gives the person the building blocks that they can incorporate themselves so that they can experience what will happen later to its fullest.

Enough descriptive chatter; on to the real stuff.

When thinking about how Christians can impact their worlds, I was thinking of how they did it in the Bible. I could have spent a bunch of time beating Mars Hill around or talking about Philip and the Eunuch or something, but I actually had a better idea.

I'm going to talk about how Jesus used foreshadowing and imagery in his ministry, and how later on, when he got into the really concrete parts of his ministry, these images helped people to understand what he was all about.

Two miracles
Ever wonder how people got from Jesus walking around teaching people and healing them to Jesus being God and trying to bring us closer to himself and the whole Church thing?

Some scholars have claimed that Jesus did his thing and then his disciples, especially Paul, went off the rails and created a religion. Not so, I argue. Jesus knew from the start what he was doing, and he showed us what he was up to through his miracles. I'm going to discuss two miracles, what they foreshadow, and the implications that they have on video game design.

The Wedding at Cana
The first miracle I'd like to discuss is the Water into Wine incident.

Lots of people talk about the water and wine incident. It's Jesus' first miracle. It proves that he's God. So on and so forth. I'd like to discuss how it relates to Communion. Ever wonder why, at the Last Supper, Jesus' disciples didn't kill him? Or at least leave him?

I mean, he just committed huge heresy.

Or at least something cultic.

Imagine I'm your Pastor. You come to my church and we do communion. You've just had the bread, and the wine/juice, and I suddenly pull out a bunch of pieces of steak and say, "This is my culinary talents...." and pass it around and add it to the ceremony.

It would be bad.

I'd never do it.

But Jesus did.

He did that to the Passover ceremony. He added to it. He just committed grand heresy upon one of the Sacraments of the Jewish faith. And his disciples didn't bat an eye. Why?

Because they'd seen it before.

Sort of.

Blast back to the Marriage at Cana. Everyone's happy, they're partying, and they're getting drunk, or at least trying to. But now they're out of wine and everyone's going to be disappointed. And Jesus steps in at that moment. He turns water into wine.

Now a lot has been made of this miracle. It's Jesus first; it proves he's God, etc. But that's not what's relevant here for my uses.

I'd like to bring to your awareness the subject of water. Jesus turns water into wine. Where does he find this water? We're told that they were in six stone jars, used by the Jews for washing (Jn 2.6).

You see, many of us don't understand this because we're supposed to wash our hands before meals. We do this without thinking about it, and it's not "special." But it was to the Jews.

The Jews washed before meals. Nobody else did.

The Jews didn't wash before meals because they wanted to, or because they had superior health awareness to the other people around them. They did it because it was demanded of them by the Law. By the covenant.

Hand washing was part of the old, Mosiac covenant.

Jesus turned that water into wine.

Blast back to the Last Supper. Jesus grabs the cup filled with wine and says this is the new covenant in my blood.

Wine is the new covenant.

Jesus turns the old covenant into the new covenant.

The disciples get it because they have seen it before. The marriage at Cana, where Jesus turns the water into the wine, foreshadows the Last Supper, where Jesus lays down the New Covenant. The disciples don't stone him or reject him because when Jesus pulls out the wine, instead of them thinking it's heresy or just plain stupid, they understand that this is what Jesus is about.

The Bleeding Woman
Here's another miracle involving foreshadowing: Jesus heals a woman who has been sick with what's described as a bleeding disease or a flow of blood that would not stop.

Now, something to point out about bleeding diseases and Jewish culture at the time of Christ. You didn't live from them. I mean bleeding diseases, like Hemophilia or Ebola. If you have those today, you're in serious trouble -- back then, you'd just be dead. This woman didn't have a disease like Hemophilia or Ebola. Yes, I know Hemophilia's a genetic condition. Whatever. She didn't have it, because she'd be dead, not suffering from it for many years. The idea that makes the most sense is that she had a condition where her periodic blood flow -- "time of the month" -- would not go away. That's not something that anyone would enjoy, it would be embarrassing and painful, but it's not a death sentence.

It's worse than a death sentence.

According to the Jewish religion, being in relationship with God required the covenant to be maintained. Part of this maintenance meant going to the Temple to be cleansed of sins, especially during the Day of Atonement and surrounding ceremonies. Which you could not do during your time of bleeding. Of course, the Jewish religion made accommodation for the menstrual cycle, and you could always go and be made right after your time was through.

After.

But for this woman, there was no after. She'd had this problem for years. Her problem was not so much the condition of her bleeding, although that was by no means easy or desirable, but the condition of her relationship with God.

She was separated from God. Because of her problem she could not be made right with God.

When Jesus heals her, he is not just stopping up the blood or healing her from a disease. He is giving her the ability to go back to the Temple. To be cleansed.

To be in relationship with God again.

Jesus does this to many of the people he meets. He restores this woman, he also restores the leperous, the lame, and the blind. By making them whole, he allows them to re-enter the Temple, to become one with God again. To be saved.

After Jesus dies, rises again, and leaves, his disciples spread the good news that Jesus lets us be in relation with God again. We're brought together. The people understand. They get it because this idea didn't start with the disciples, or with Paul, like some scholars maintain. It started with the woman,

with the lepers,

with the demon-possessed,

with Jesus.

Through foreshadowing, Jesus gave the people the tools to understand his disciples' messages. They got it because they had seen it already. In their neighbor, the woman who hadn't been to the Synagogue in years. In the stories they heard about the madman in the graveyard who had suddenly became sane. They believed because they'd seen it, experienced it, heard it, before the Church ever started.

Foreshadowing in Video Games
Each of these miracles foreshadows the messages. It provides a background of relevant familiarity to the messages and thoughts that are later provided.

Video games can do this too.

Rather than hit people over the head with the Gospel message, we can make them familiar with the good news.

Years ago people were familiar with the Bible. Now they aren't. Now they don't want to be. Do we sneak them the Bible in fun colored packaging, or do we make them familiar with something else?

Most people in America today are familiar with the Matrix. Or with Spider-man, Batman, or Saving Private Ryan. As Gamers, we're familiar with Warcraft. With Final Fantasy. With the Lord of the Rings and Star Wars.

With Doom.

Myst.

I applaud anyone who takes up the task of sorting out how to take the things that already exist that we are familiar with. But I also carry the dream of adding to that list. Of making new games that Gamers will be familiar with.

Of games about grace.

About freedom.

About the things that Jesus has to offer that our society doesn't understand.

Forgiveness. Love. Real peace. Sex, even.

That there's a world where there is neither slave nor free, man nor woman, Jew nor Gentile.

We could either spend our efforts giving a dictionary definition of grace in a video game that nobody will play, that drips out-of-context scriptures and cheesy gameplay, or we could spend our efforts making a game that contains grace.

A game that is an image of grace. A game that gives the player a taste of what grace is like,

so that when grace comes across their path,

and it will,

they will recognize it.

So that until it does come across their path, they will thirst for it.

The best part about Foreshadowing is that if we work with the Holy Spirit, he will explain grace in his time, in his way.

There's no need to have a final cutscene in an JRPG where the main character and the crystal horse and the five spirits that you've created discuss what grace is and why everyone should get saved and turn into Christians.

They'll have the tools. They'll have the thirst.

They'll seek, and they will find.

All we need is to provide the images that foreshadow the revelation. Of grace. Of freedom.

Of real sexuality. Not just a cheap image. Not just a sport.

Maybe I'm getting really idealistic here. Soon, I'll talk about how we present these images. I'll discuss genres, and how each genre gives us an understood inroad towards actualizing Christian content.

For now, I have another class. Maybe this post is too long and abstract, but I'm posting it anyways. I'll come back and interact with the discussion, maybe I'll interact with this post.
 
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Neirai the Forgiven said:
ppar: I accept where you are coming from, with your comments on indie games being the future of Christian gaming. Nevertheless, so far I reject the idea that Christian games cannot be good and commercially successful. The question of how to do that is what I am attempting to explore in this thread. Perhaps you are right and that will come out in this thread. Right now I am interested in exploring the possibility, however slim it may be, of successfully blending Christian content with gameplay in a way that is commercially successful. As I stated in the first post, a game that is not commercially successful (or wildly indie-successful, which might actually be harder, and then I'd have to sell out) is not impacting culture.

Please don't read the previous paragraph as me brushing or attempting to brush you off -- I really do appreciate and need your insights, and your indie-viewpoint to be present in this conversation.
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First off let me say I love the idea of forshadowing, indeed I think it is really the only viable means of having a good christian game. Second let me say i am really enjoying this conversation and hope it leads somewhere good. I can see how this would be a really interesting thesis topic.

The only thing I would say is that I do disagree with the idea that culture is impacted by the mainstream rather than fringe movements. I would suggest it is actually the opposite. I think given the nature of the mainstream where media products are a) usually pitched with the lowest common denominator in mind and b) have to eventually go through large MNC who are as a rule largely risk averse. This makes mainstream media ends up being a) monotonous, b) devoid of any real substance that could provide a meaningful impact on culture and c) focuses almost exclusively on tried and tested means, themes, and formates. This is why ever top 10 RnB group all sound the same and only ever sing about 'love' and never in any substantial way. Indeed, last year I did my media training course which is part of the requirements to become an org psychologist. We were told that the way the media reported science news was that it only ever reported on subjects that have already being repeated again and again on the news and are not really interested in new breakthroughts etc. I kind of think of the metaphore of mainstream culture being like a wringer where anythin remotely substantial, ethics or value driven or new gets squezzed out before it is feed to the horde (i.e. you and me).

On the flip side and as food for thought I wonder whether in a commercial profit driven society, where power and control over individuals thoughts and actions is the real economy whether mainstream and successful Christian gaming is actually approapriate. Assuming mainstream Christian gaming can actually be succesful, I wonder whether it would not eventually become a mean where by the christian message is either dilluted where such games become a vehical for money making and the culture changing aspects all but disappear (I think this not only the best of possible negative outcomes of successful Christian gaming but is most definately an invitable outcome - e.g. the south park eposide where cartman becomes a Christian Rock singer). The real risk however is that it would eventually become a means of controllling and influencing individuals for non-christian ends by powerful groups. When christianity has utalised mainstream communication in the past this has been a fairly frequent outcome. Quoting John Dewey "Communication [that is the first lot of truely mass media communication] was viewed as a process and a technology that would, sometimes for religious purposes, spread, transmit, and disseminate knowledge, ideas, information further and faster [so far so good but] with the end of controlling space and people [not so good]".

It is my view that a detailed view of history leads to the conclusion that Christianinty has always been most successful in building the kingdom of God when it is subversive rather than powerful. Ironically when Christianity is weak politically and culturally, it appears to have the greatest long term benifits.

I am basing my ideas on the role of the media from "McQuail's Reader in Mass Communication Theory". When I was in undergrad I also read "The Four Horsemen of the Apololypse: How the media frames war,desiease, famine and pestilence". It was an increadable read and impacted me in such a way that i have never thought of the mass media as anything more the entertainment. Ifyou want something that will really change the way you think and inform your world view I think you have to go away from the mainstream. I know this sounds like "cultural cringe" (something which is almost a defining feature of my country) or cultural elitism. I dont mean it to be, I am just trying to recognise that the mainstreams aims of making money and your aims of spreading Christs message via mass media are on an inevitable collision cause where at somepoint one lot of aims will have to make way for the other. I would be happy to be proved wrong and can point to mass media outlets that have done just that (i.e. Dues Ex) but I dont think it is something that can really be sustained in a way that will result in a happy medium for all.
 
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A fantasy adventure or maybe story-driven role-play would be an amazing game, I think, with the Christian story.
 
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some quick notes:

ppar: to grind Tek's axe, Final Fantasy manages (or at least managed) to pack spirituality and morality into a well-loved mainstream package.

That being said, I think we'd have to fight over the meaning of "mainstream" and "indie" and I don't thing that it's necessary that we do at this point of the discussion. I think we should let the market question lie for now, but don't hesitate to bring it up wherever you see it as relevant.

kajunlass: Indeed, parables will come into this, at least as a concept that needs to be considered. Once again, I'm kind of trying to keep a tight fist on the direction that this thread is going, because I am really good at getting embroiled and off-topic. We will revisit this idea at some future point, however.

Bowser: Yes... but what is "the Christian story?" I don't think that a good 'Final Fantasy'-esque story would begin with "In the days of Emperor Tiberus there was issued a decree" per se. We will discuss the role of fantasy and of stories, and how they make awesome backdrops for theology and evangelism... but later :)


Finally, I'm not going to make a big huge post here, but I'd like to say that my next post will be on the subject of the "goal of Christian gaming." Before I write it, however, I'd like to hear from some of you (ppar3566 especially, but also Tek7 and VK and kajunlassgotcha and Bowser and you (yes, you)) about what you feel the goal of Christian gaming actually is.

So post away, that's enough out of me for now.
 
I remain somewhat unconvinced (I mean FF games are hardly spiritually enlightening, it is really just a story telling mechanic, and they are hardly mainstream in the west). The other thing of course is not only are they possible but are they a good idea. But I am prepared to suspend disbelief for the moment in the interests of moving forward and....because I think I have a good idea. But I would like to hear your thoughts on this at some point.

I recently sat down which a bible college who were wanting to start some consulting work, and the question was what does a Christian community have to offer that is both useful and valuable to non-Christians and helps build the kingdom of God. The answer I pushed for was values and specifically values clarification and ethical systems clarification. I think the same thing could be used to provide something non-Christians want to play but also seek to get them to think about their own values and how they live them out etc.

So how would this work in a game: Well I don't know about you but I am pretty sick of games that say they give you choice with game play consequences through moral choices. Then you find the choice boils down to "do I want to burn down this church full of puppies" OR "do i want to feed this starving orphan". I hate this (Fable II and NWN II I am looking at you) I mean the world is not like this. There is rarely the case where things a this clear cut and the fact is most of the big influences on our lives are when we choose between different values "do i spend time with my family to build our relationship" or "do i do extra overtime work so they can have a good shot at life". I would like to see something along this lines in gaming. The idea being that by giving gamers an opportunity to choose between real choices it may help them think about what is important for them and in a safe environment see what some of the consequences are.

For example a war game could include the choice of "do I go and take out that town where there is a missile aimed at my troops thus protecting them but possible killing lots of innocent civilians" or "do I try and protect as many innocent lives as possible even though it may result in more casualties for my men" . This would get people thinking about what they value and how that effects their actions. I see this is where your idea of foreshadowing might come to the fore (for want of a better word). Christianity would not be front and center but getting people to think about there values and ethics provides a platform for gamers to ask interesting questions about the world and their place in it. It also provides a means for great plot twists like where a gamer has constantly chosen one set of values over another and then gets offered a choice where the opposite set of values becomes really really tempting and the question becomes will you stick to your guns or are you willing to compromise your values for something you really really want now.

Potential pit falls:
1. The game could become so obviously western, fundamentalist christian that it does not represent a real effort to get people to think about their values but rather a promotional ploy to tell people what Christians think is right, there is no black and whites there is only our way or the evil way. NOT helpful I think.
2. The game starts off with value choices but either later choices in game or outcomes of those choices make it clear that one lot is better than the other. Now remeber that I think the goal of such games would be to get people to think about there values seriously not to tell them what they should be. The goal is get get people asking questions that would led them to think stuff that will lead them to ask questions about Christ not to tell them what to believe.

Well this is my two cents worth.
 
ppar3566 said:
1. The game could become so obviously western, fundamentalist christian that it does not represent a real effort to get people to think about their values but rather a promotional ploy to tell people what Christians think is right, there is no black and whites there is only our way or the evil way. NOT helpful I think.
2. The game starts off with value choices but either later choices in game or outcomes of those choices make it clear that one lot is better than the other. Now remeber that I think the goal of such games would be to get people to think about there values seriously not to tell them what they should be. The goal is get get people asking questions that would led them to think stuff that will lead them to ask questions about Christ not to tell them what to believe.
Click to expand...

This is EXACTLY what we are trying to avoid. You are right on the ball. We're on the same page.
 
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