Mrpopdrinker:
"Who will believe in the son? Those who come to him and that is anyone who wished to."
Me:
Calvinism does not go against this.
Mrpopdrinker:
"No I am asserting it is God's plan for everyone to go to heaven as hell was created for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41)"
Me:
I would not argue that hell wasn't created for the devil and his angels. I could get into the different degrees of predestination, but only if it's necessary. The important thing is that I am not disagreeing with this, nor have I.
However, I would argue that it was not God's plan for everyone to go to heaven. If this was the case, why doens't it happen. If God plans for something to happen, it does:
Job 42
2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.
Mrpopdrinker:
"However it is up to us whether or not we accept the plan. "
Me:
If this were the case, it would mean two things:
1) We save ourselves. God throws us a bone and it is up to us to save ourselves.
2) Our actions are above God's plan.
Both are absurd if you think about them.
Mrpopdrinker:
"Read the rest of Romans 8 it usually helps if you read the whole thing. "
Me:
I have read Romans 8....
We can go into Romans 9 if you want...
I could exegete this, but it's blantantly obvious
Romans 9
1I speak the truth in Christ--I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit-- 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![1] Amen.
6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[2] 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[3]
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[4] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[5]
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[6] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[7] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Christ came to redeem his people, Israel. Paul confirms that he did so.
More:
30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
Mrpopdrinker:
"I believe these terms such as predestination and the elect just show. A:God had a plan B: I believe elect just meens those that come to him."
Me:
The terms predestination and elect mean just that. They are literal terms and mean their actual definition. you can see hint of that in context, as well as the Greek.
Predestination does mean that God had a plan (has a plan). That plan was to save his people. I showed earlier quoting Romans that that plan is being fulfilled, and humans could not have thwarted it by our "freewill" as you assert, because the Bible teaches that nothing can thwart God's plan. If God actively predestined something, thereby making his plan out, then it will come to pass, plain and simple.
Biblically, elect refers to the same thing as the sheep, and to the same thing as spiritual Israel. The elect are those whom Christ died for and those who by God are able to come to Christ.
Let's look at John 10 for a more clear understanding:
John 10
1"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. 3The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." 6Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.
7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[1] He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
19At these words the Jews were again divided. 20Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?"
21But others said, "These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?"
22Then came the Feast of Dedication[2] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ,[3] tell us plainly."
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[4] ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."
Biblically the sheep are those who are chosen beforehand acording to even this passage. The sheep are those who were chosen and who would not follow the false messiah but will follow Christ, because they "know his voice." The sheep where those given to Christ by God, and who were secure in the father's hand so that nothing could snatch them out. According to the passage, not everyone is a sheep. Jesus told those particular people that they were not sheep. He also says in John 6 that no one could come to him unless the father draws that person.
John 6
44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
I do not have any greek resources with me, but this I am certain. You can check it if you wish, any here who knows Greek.
The term "draws" used in this passage, is the same term that is used throughout the Bible in forceful passages. One of which is Acts 16:19
"19When the owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities"
Further, close attention on the passage in John 6:44 shows that Christ is claiming that those whom the father draws, Christ will raise up on the last day. \
Mrpopdrinker:
"James 5:20 "remember whoever turns a sinner from the error of his ways will save him from death and cover a multitude of sins" I believe this is saying that by fullfilling the great comission we can lead anyone to Christ how am I wrong?"
Me:
We know from the Bible that we cannot save anyone. By fulfilling the great commission we are merely using ourselves as a vessel. We can present the God's word, but it is God who must open the heart of the other individual. The passage says that whoever "turns a sinner from error." We obviously do not have this ability so James must have meant something else. I believe he was just pressing our need to witness, fulfilling our instrumental purposes of God as our tool. When we witness, people do often become believers. They are saved from death. However, this is not because we changed them. We merely presented God's word and he did what he did with that. So this passage is more of an indirect acomplishment of our witnessing.
Look at Isaiah 55:
11so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Mrpopdrinker:
"also should apologize for saying we serve seperate Gods as God spoke to me last night and told me that I should not have done that for various reasons. So I do apologize for that."
Me:
Thank you.
Mrpopdrinker:
"Now in Epheisians 1:5 it says he predestined us according to his pleasure and will."
Me:
Before I move on to your next argument I want to point something out. What do you think is God's chief concern? What does God care about more than anything. The answer, of course, is his glory. Mankind does not preceed this.
Mrpopdrinker:
"Now as I have said before I believe God wants all men to be saved and you asked for proof. After doing some more study I found it. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 "This is good and pleases God our saviour who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth""
Me:
I will assume your position then attempt to prove it logically unsound with the rest of the Bible. Then I will propose my exegesis which I believe to be the correct one.
Is it's God's plan for "all" (I use this term in the sense you are referring) to be saved? If this was God's plan, then it would happen, for we know from Job 42:2 that God's plan cannot be thwarted. Further, if this was God's plan, then Christ wouldn't have been made a stumbling block to nonbelievers (1Cor 1:23, Romans 9:32-33, 1Peter 2:8). "All" men (again "all" in your sense) would be able to believe. However, this is not the case according to John 12:40, John 6:44, John 10:26, Isaiah 55:11, Romans 8, Romans 9, 1Cor 2:14, et al. If God's desire is for "all" (again in your sense) to be saved, then why doesn't God give Christ us all for him to atone.
John 6
37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
All who the Father gives the Son will come. How come not "all" in your sense comes?
I hope to have shown that looking at it through your perspective view is contradictory and cannot be true.
I will now exegete the correct meaning of the passage:
1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good and pleases God our saviour who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth
The Bible constantly refers to the word all as a boundary breaker between both Jews and gentiles, or showing that it is people from all nations and not just the limitness of the Jews.
Matthew 10
22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
This passage obviously doesn't mean "all" in your sense because it would be impossible. They would have to hate themselves, since they are infact men also, and it would mean that no one would be saved because they would all hate Jesus.
The passage above simply refers to God's desire that all kinds of men. Kings, peasents, Jews, Gentiles. God shows no such partiallity. And those whom he desires to be saved, he has predestined, according to his pleasure ^_-
