Atlantis

[Eon]

Of course I understand - I used to be a card carrying atheist myself, until I found a path that suited me. But I'll tell you this - there are stranger things on heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophies. And I've experienced a couple first hand - about all I know for sure is that I don't know anything, for sure.

 

[timor]

You're definitly a very interesting guy, Eon

 

[Vanaze]

Something I've noticed about your posts, timor and Eon, while intriguing and thought provoking, they usually come across as "Aw, ignorant Christians", almost to a point of arrogance.

I've noticed this motif not just here, but all over the world, in the different places I've traveled. I've been to several different countries in my time, and I've noticed that in the more "civilized" places, there's a definate bias against anything Christian.

For example, when someone tells you they're a Buddhist, an average response heard is "Oh, you're deep and trying to find a path in life" while if I were to tell the average citizen of earth "I'm a Christian following Christ through my life, depending on Him to lead and guide me, because I know He's there for me" I'm seen as a fundamentalist whacko. If you deny that, then you'll only be showing your own ignorance, because I deal with that daily, as the rather outspoken young man I am.

Vanaze


PS Point of this message wasn't to target you two, but rather, to bring up a point that has been on my mind for a while now.

 

[Eon]

Well, I don't mean to point fingers Vanaze - but there's a reason why I'm not over on Buddhist Gamers Alliance trying to get them to actively consider other ways of life and points of view. That said, there's a reason why I'm not on Islamic Gamers Alliance too, so don't beat yourselves up about it.

Speaking for myself - and myself is the only person I speak for - if you were to say "I'm a Christian following Christ through my life, depending on Him to lead and guide me, because I know He's there for me" then I WOULDN'T see you as a whacko.

It's the bits that get tacked on after that point that scream out for adjustment, correction and management. The bits where you go on to say that everyone else worships a figment of Satans imagination and is destined for eternal torture. The bit where, in the past, your church helped speed that process along - and now claims that there is nothing for the inquisition to apologise for. The bit where the so-called Moral Minority gets to pass judgement on absolutely everything whilst knowing absolutely nothing about it. Like it or not, those people with the funny hair and the wide, staring eyes who preach on street corners. They claim to speak for you. So do the Televangelists. So do the men of intolerance and violence.

Very few people hear from the average, everyday Christian who just wants to live his life and worship his God. Who doesn't want to beat Satan out of his children with sticks, believes in medicine and undestands basic scientific theory. I wonder why that is?

 

[Eztral]

Timor's right. Just because someone's legs are equal lengths, or someone doesn't need glasses doesn't mean they're miracles. If someone has bad eyesight, their eyes can correct themselves. ( I think, at least. ) And some people just don't need glasses

Hmm I kinda didn't explain that one good enough, we were at a meeting, my friend had about 3 cm differnece and as the pastor put his hand on the leg it poped out. No I can't explain it but I'll call that a miracle, 2 my friend came to the same meeting with the worst eyes ever, don't know whats it called but your eyes don't look straight forward, and he was really nearsighted, after the pastor\preacher put he's hands on him he could see fine without the glasses and his eyes look normal. Call it coincednse, a trick of faith, but still I'll call that a miracle.

 

[Eztral]

I really suck at this, lets see : Thraugymatery? what ever, isn't that like, conjuring fires on a candle, and such? I had a friend who practised that stuff, he now spends his days in a wheel chair staring at the wall, he did the quija board thingy as well, played a little with everything I guess.

 

[Eon]

Thaumaturgy is manipulating internal energies to create gross physical manifestations - like fireballs, darts of ice etc.It's all about will shaping the world - but I've not met a single Thaumaturge, nor have I met anyone who has.

To be honest, I'm not surprised - if I was a Thaumuturge I'd keep it VERY quiet.

 

[Jango]

His legs just popped out? That's, uh, interesting.

 

[Master~Plan]

The bit where, in the past, your church helped speed that process along - and now claims that there is nothing for the inquisition to apologise for. The bit where the so-called Moral Minority gets to pass judgement on absolutely everything whilst knowing absolutely nothing about it. Like it or not, those people with the funny hair and the wide, staring eyes who preach on street corners. They claim to speak for you. So do the Televangelists. So do the men of intolerance and violence.
QUOTE]
the inquisition was done by the roman catholics. Rich arrogant people, who posed as great religous figures. Jesus spoke out against such people his whole life more than any other group. Jesus did not come to condemn the world, but to tell them thier sins were forgiven. I am one of those people. There is no moral minority. Were all in the same boat. Let the crazy people on the street corners claim what they will, as for me, I"ll try to follow God not to become some great religious figure, or become the moral few, but one of the many grateful to God, for saving me after I nailed him on a cross.

 

[Vanaze]

I do thank you for your patience, Eon, but I have a question directly pointed at you, just to see what you think real quick....


Do you think the Christians in society today are persecuted against in their beliefs and how they live their lives? If not, why? If so, why?


Other thing --- If you're defining Christians as the "moral minority" in your former posts, I have to say that we speak the truth as we have been taught by our Bibles, and I don't think it's wrong for us to speak amongst ourselves about the rest of the world. If we believe that 50% of the world is going to hell because about that much believes in another religion or god, I don't think that is wrong at all. Do I think it's wrong to tell them so? No. Do I think it's wrong to force it down their throats? Yes.

I think it's pretty closed minded of you to say that we're wrong to think of other religions as figments of Satan's imaginations, because according to the Bible, they're not figments of his imagination, they're direct results of his actions and his demons' actions, therefore other religions, pagan, Islamic, animist, whatever.....According to the Good Book, they are just that --- demonic religions.

That's similar to me saying Creationism is right and evolution is wrong, almost no one would agree with me, and I'd be "politically incorrect."

(I think that your comments alone prove the bias I think exists against Christians -- You just sat there and told us WE were close minded while you sat there and closed your minds to us and our ways)


Oh, Eon, you also have to realize that all those pagan human sacrifices and summoning up evil things speak for YOUR religion as well, and I think it would do you good to remember that before telling us that some of the more..Eh, extremely outspoken members of our religion are wild eyed freaks.


Still waiting for timor to post =P

Vanaze

 

[Grand Master]

Quote[/b] ]Quote (Grand Master @ Mar. 04 2004,10:32)
By the way, to all the people talking about magic: why don't you do some?

Hehe...because I'm smart enough to know that I'd be stupid enough to ruin myself with it.

I don't expect that any Christian would ever take me up on this challenge. There would always be some excuse why they can't or won't do it. I think they would be too afraid to try, because in their hearts, they know they will fail, and they wouldn't want to face the truth of what such a failure would mean. But I will make an effort to ask this of Christians whenever I get the chance; we'll see if anyone is willing to save my soul from eternal damnation.

Hey Eon, would you care to describe some of the "magick" that you have performed?

 

[Eon]

Right, let's start with Vanaze and move on to GrandMaster afterwards. Please excuse me if this is a long post, but I have a lot to cover.

Firstly, the fact that I'm here at all suggests that I have a more open mind than most. If I was a close minded Asatruaar I'd be chatting on an Odinist website and agreeing that Jerry Falwell is the model of a perfect Christian.

Secondly, you'll notice that I always welcome new information, and that I even take part in discussions of Christian doctrine. Why? I want to learn.

None of this detracts from the plain fact that I disagree with Christian doctrine on many levels. I can't pretty that up for you, I'm afraid. You have to look at it from my point of view for a second - your faith denies mine and you aren't afraid of letting Religion spill over into Politics and domestic politics spill over into Foreign Policy. Look at the idiot you have running the States, for example.

Now you're saying its closeminded of me to criticise you for denying all other faiths in the world. Here I have to shrug and remind you that your right to swing your fist ends at my nose. If I seem defensive, I have to remind you that I am not so pre-emptively - I have, after all, been attacked.

I never even criticise those who believe in Creationism or the Flood - you'll notice I only attack those who claim that there is scientific proof for their beliefs. Faith is fine, I myself believe some things that cannot be scientifically proven - but I never claim that those things are proven fact. Do I think that Christians are persecuted for their beliefs and for voicing those beliefs in some parts of the world? Yes, I would say that they are. For example, in the Middle East, they are not allowed to wear crucifixes or to preach.

Are they persecuted in the secular Western world? Well, the important thing about persecution is that it is offensive in nature, and not defensive. The parts of Western society that tend to lash out at Fundamental Christianity are those who would be most affected by it regaining control of the legislature - you remember how that went last time? <cough-Salem> <cough-Witch Burnings> <cough-Crusades> <cough Spain Vs. England>

Anyway - the above should provide fodder for further discussion.


Now, GrandMaster, onto Magick that I have done, participated in and seen.

Of myself, I'm not particularly skilled or practiced. I can do very minor Healing magic mostly concerned with the shunting about and control of pain, I can do some divination using the runes. That's about it.

As part of a group I have taken part in what you might call large scale "Strategic" Magick. This is concerned with observing and celebrating the major spiritual "events" of the Pagan calendar and calling out to the Gods at those times. This hopefully brings them closer to us again, furthering the current flowering of the Pagan religions and continuing the process of reawakening. Much of the land, you see, sleeps after thousands of years of the Gods being reviled, turned away from and ignored. We go to the old places, the holy places, and awaken things that have lain dormant for thousands of years - just so they can hear the sound of their own names again and get a little exercise.

 

[Eztral]

GM, I'm deeply facinated about magic, I would love to practice it I think, if it wasn't for the fact that God has said its wrong, if you put us down and call us cowards just because we follow our choise, our religion then your just a (bannreasonx3).

 

[TastyWheat]

Quote[/b] (Grand Master @ Mar. 06 2004,10:55)]There would always be some excuse why they can't or won't do it. I think they would be too afraid to try, because in their hearts, they know they will fail, and they wouldn't want to face the truth of what such a failure would mean.

lol...ok, let me get this straight.

You're saying that, because I'm self-actualized enough to know that I wouldn't be able to handle such power, whether from God or Satan, or Martha Stewart for that matter, that makes me a chicken?

Hehe...you sound like a third-grader trying to convince another third-grader to try a Ouija board, only to call him a "scaredy cat" when he won't try. Way to be a champion of logic GM.

 

[Jango]

Quote[/b] ]cough-Crusades

Of course, the Crusades were not Christian by any stretch of the word.

Quote[/b] ]There would always be some excuse why they can't or won't do it. I think they would be too afraid to try, because in their hearts, they know they will fail, and they wouldn't want to face the truth of what such a failure would mean.

Oh yeah, we're cowards because we could be seriously injured by doing it. Right, I'd like to see you say that if you end up paralized from it.

 

[Eon]

First of all, Christians have never really said (as a faith anyway) that magick doesn't exist. They've only said that it's demon-powered and corrupting.

Which in a way it is.

Magick is a strange feeling, on those occaisions where it just works right and you manage to contact something timeless, immense and benevolent. Of course, if done wrongly you can tap into things that are none of the above, currents of darker energy.

I haven't met anything too extreme - I've had a thorough grounding in protection and warding - and there are so many kids with their "White Witchcraft spells" around that not much will bother to have a pop at someone properly protected.

If you are interested in magick and you do want to give it a try, for the sake of the Gods don't just have a go yourself. And never use a Ouija board - those things are the Saturday Night Special of the magickal world. Seek out a proper group. Proper groups can be defined as groups that:

1. Never use the word Magick. I know I've been using it, but that's because it's a word you're familiar with. A real Talent would use the word Craft or simply refer to performing a working.

2. Refuse to do anything more potent than a simple meditation session without drawing the circle and calling the quarters.

3. Never use a drawn circle on the floor for the circle.

4. Only work using "borrowed" power. They should never take power from a person or animal (either through blood or through some other method of delivery). They should never take power from a bound spirit.

5. They should know when to pack up and call it a day. Sometimes "the stars aren't right" or people aren't in the right mood. Perservering even when things "feel" wrong can add an unwelcome element of chance or darkness to proceedings.

 

[Jango]

Quote[/b] ]First of all, Christians have never really said (as a faith anyway) that magick doesn't exist. They've only said that it's demon-powered and corrupting.

Which in a way it is.

Which is mainly the reason I don't do it. Some forms of magic are fascinating. Nevertheless, will not partake in it.

 

[Eztral]

In craft terms, a Ghost would be a bound spirit?

There is a house here where a couple of the minors keep seeing two persons who noone other can see, they have a witch in the family who still communicates with her father.
If you would have any teories\insight about this it would be most welcome. It kinda bothers me but no one here takes it to serious xept the guy with the sister.

I read the Necronium or whats it called, a standard spell compendium with a few "beeings" to be summoned, personaly I feelt kinda bad first reading some out loud than inside me, ever heard of it? what about theese "deities" or what you should call them, would you warn against them to?

 

[Jango]

There are no ghosts. "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. "-Eccleciasties 9:5

There are spirits ( God, Angels, Satan, and the evil Angels. ), but not spirits of dead people.

Quote[/b] ]
There is a house here where a couple of the minors keep seeing two persons who noone other can see, they have a witch in the family who still communicates with her father.

You cannot communicate with dead people, you communicate with Satan then.

Quote[/b] ]what about theese "deities" or what you should call them, would you warn against them to?

The word "deity" means "god", so if you are a Christian you know there is only one.

 

[TastyWheat]

Quote[/b] (Jango @ Mar. 07 2004,9:36)]There are no ghosts. "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. "-Eccleciasties 9:5

There are spirits ( God, Angels, Satan, and the evil Angels. ), but not spirits of dead people.

First, I think a better verse to make your point would be 9:10 - "Whatever your hand finds to do, do with might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going."

If you wish to pull from the OT, I can do the same. Isaiah 14:9-11: "Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. All of them will speak and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!" Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, and the sound of your harps; maggots are the bed beneath you, and worms are your covering."

How about some NT? Mark 9:43-48 : " And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

Luke 16:22-31: " The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom. And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz'arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'"

Scofield has this to say: "This statement is no more a divine revelation concerning the state of the dead than any other conclusion of 'the Preacher'. No one would quote 9:2 as divine revelation. These reasonings of man apart from divine revelation are set down by inspiration just as the words of Satan (Gen. 3:4; Job 2:4-5; etc.) are so recorded. But that life and consciousness continue between death and resurrection is directly affirmed in Scripture."

I'm not personally vouching for one side or the other; just trying to mix in some other Scripture. Iron sharpens iron