Jango
New Member
Of course, I meant while He was dead.[b said:
Atlantis
- Thread starter timor
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mrpopdrinker
New Member
Well the witch certainly thought it was Samuel. Saul I dont think actually seen him and had no way of knowing. Either way whether or not he seen him (although the witch probably did) I dont think it was really Samuel.[b said:
I agree.[b said:
If you can't communicate with the Dead why is it specifically mentioned as something you must NOT do? After all, you also can't fly, shoot lightning from your fingers or lay waste to entire nations through the power of your mind - but these things aren't mentioned as stuff you can't do in the bible, are they?
TastyWheat
New Member
Another good point.[b said:
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Because your going to communicate with somthing. However it will not be your loved one or whoever you are trying to speak to. Although they will try to say they are.[b said:
Master, I'm not going to bother to ask you for /real/ reasons anymore, because you skirt around the issues just like every other liberal person I've met on this earth. You don't give reasons, you try to cut a person down so they don't seem credible, no matter how good of a leader they may truly be.
Until you, and Eon for that matter, since he threw his two cents in, decide to give real political reasons and NOT fluff, I don't want to continue this debate.
Whenever the time comes that you're willing to try to set something up that can hold water, get back to me.
Van
Until you, and Eon for that matter, since he threw his two cents in, decide to give real political reasons and NOT fluff, I don't want to continue this debate.
Whenever the time comes that you're willing to try to set something up that can hold water, get back to me.
Van
[toj.cc]El Jefe[sww:D]
New Member
Eon, I respect that you come to this forum and have civilized debates with us, I find it awesome that you are open-minded enough to continue coming back, but I would greatly appreciate it if you would not use this board as a place to teach others how to practice your magicks. In my honest opinion, this is as insulting as if you would teach those who would listen the easiest way to break the Commandments. The Bible clearly tells us in multiple places don't practice magick, it is bad. I can live with a discussion on how real magick is, and if there is any form of empirical evidence that it exists, but please stop there. We do not need to know how to go about the practice. Thank you if you give my words any consideration, I appreciate it greatly.
Quick question for the l33tn3ss that is Eon 
.....
Do you believe that Satan is Satan in all religions? Do you believe there is a demonic creature by the name of Lucifer, or some demon who personifies what Lucifer does?
All kinds of religions around the world, pagan, Christianity, other monotheistic religions, usually have a belief of a supreme evil of some kind.
Just curious.
Van
.....Do you believe that Satan is Satan in all religions? Do you believe there is a demonic creature by the name of Lucifer, or some demon who personifies what Lucifer does?
All kinds of religions around the world, pagan, Christianity, other monotheistic religions, usually have a belief of a supreme evil of some kind.
Just curious.
Van
Yeesh Van, did I whiz in your wheaties this morning... 
I believe that you guys believe there is a real demon called Lucifer, who was the right hand of Yahweh and is now fallen to darkness. That means I suspect that there's a very real spirit called Lucifer out there who may or may not be quite powerful and may or may not be quite evil. I can't say for sure, I don't go looking for things like that, and I pull up stakes and run like hell if I bump into them accidentally. I think he'd be more deadly to you guys than to me, however, since I know some basic safety protocols and I don't go blundering around waking up Dragons.
Actually most Western Pagan religions DON'T have a single supreme evil - they have a lot of less than supreme evils (in the same way that they have a lot of less than supreme goods). They break the idea of pure evil down into facets of evilness, the better to understand and fight them. Fighting evil is an almost impossible task, but fighting tendencies towards specific evillnesses is much easier.
Some religions, like Wicca, don't have an evil at all, believing that what we perceive as evil is merely the other side of natures coin. Of course, it's easy to forget how extreme that side of Gaia can be and forget about the Morrigan.
As for whether all religions reference the same Gods using different names. I'm not sure... The Roman God of War is very different to the Greek God of War, who is different to the Aztec God of War. They might all be different facets and spins on a larger warlike archetype, I guess, but I don't know for sure.
Regarding your earlier post about Bush - there is a tendency of some Republicans in the US to split the world into "them" and "us" and decide that anything "us" does is acceptable and anything "them" does is evil and immoral. I'll be back to you, probably in a seperate thread on the General board, with a full list of what I consider to be the evils of the Bush regime - although I see you dismissed the general issues I raised as "fluff", perhaps if I couch them more formally you'll feel the need to respond in detail.
I believe that you guys believe there is a real demon called Lucifer, who was the right hand of Yahweh and is now fallen to darkness. That means I suspect that there's a very real spirit called Lucifer out there who may or may not be quite powerful and may or may not be quite evil. I can't say for sure, I don't go looking for things like that, and I pull up stakes and run like hell if I bump into them accidentally. I think he'd be more deadly to you guys than to me, however, since I know some basic safety protocols and I don't go blundering around waking up Dragons.
Actually most Western Pagan religions DON'T have a single supreme evil - they have a lot of less than supreme evils (in the same way that they have a lot of less than supreme goods). They break the idea of pure evil down into facets of evilness, the better to understand and fight them. Fighting evil is an almost impossible task, but fighting tendencies towards specific evillnesses is much easier.
Some religions, like Wicca, don't have an evil at all, believing that what we perceive as evil is merely the other side of natures coin. Of course, it's easy to forget how extreme that side of Gaia can be and forget about the Morrigan.
As for whether all religions reference the same Gods using different names. I'm not sure... The Roman God of War is very different to the Greek God of War, who is different to the Aztec God of War. They might all be different facets and spins on a larger warlike archetype, I guess, but I don't know for sure.
Regarding your earlier post about Bush - there is a tendency of some Republicans in the US to split the world into "them" and "us" and decide that anything "us" does is acceptable and anything "them" does is evil and immoral. I'll be back to you, probably in a seperate thread on the General board, with a full list of what I consider to be the evils of the Bush regime - although I see you dismissed the general issues I raised as "fluff", perhaps if I couch them more formally you'll feel the need to respond in detail.
El Jefe - in response to your courteous request.
I understand the reasons for your request, and I very much appreciate the way in which you expressed it. However I very much regret that I am unable to fulfill the spirit of what you ask of me. Please let me try to explain why, and I hope you'll understand.
Whilst you are perfectly correct in pointing out that the Craft does run contrary to your beliefs, you are also quite correct in pointing out that despite the Churches stance, it is very real and very much out there. There are people on this board who have dabbled, and will dabble in the future - and it is to them that I'm writing.
If I don't make my knowledge available to this community, it won't affect their ability to dabble one iota, it will just make them more vulnerable when they do so. If the moderators are dead set against any discussion of Craft within this board, then I will simply take such discussions offline.
If you went to an atheists board, you wouldn't expect to be banned from telling people how to pray, would you? My primary purpose here is to help keep lines of communication and interaction open between the Christian and Pagan communities - because I believe the future will require us to interact as equals and to show each other respect and tolerance. On the other hand, if I do find a lost kinsman on this board, I am bound to help him or her find their way back home.
I understand the reasons for your request, and I very much appreciate the way in which you expressed it. However I very much regret that I am unable to fulfill the spirit of what you ask of me. Please let me try to explain why, and I hope you'll understand.
Whilst you are perfectly correct in pointing out that the Craft does run contrary to your beliefs, you are also quite correct in pointing out that despite the Churches stance, it is very real and very much out there. There are people on this board who have dabbled, and will dabble in the future - and it is to them that I'm writing.
If I don't make my knowledge available to this community, it won't affect their ability to dabble one iota, it will just make them more vulnerable when they do so. If the moderators are dead set against any discussion of Craft within this board, then I will simply take such discussions offline.
If you went to an atheists board, you wouldn't expect to be banned from telling people how to pray, would you? My primary purpose here is to help keep lines of communication and interaction open between the Christian and Pagan communities - because I believe the future will require us to interact as equals and to show each other respect and tolerance. On the other hand, if I do find a lost kinsman on this board, I am bound to help him or her find their way back home.
D***, your gone for two days and you got a LOT of catching up to do... (can someone send me a pm, on whats swearing n not?)
Eon, the belife of Gaia dosen't blow of a theori of eithr Gods or good or bad force does it? it just states a teori\belif about nature beeing a self avere thing...
As for the refering to the Devil, (this is based on that Yahweh is the old hebrev spelling of jahve\jehova...) then you must agree in beliving Jahve exists, putting your faith in the one who kicked him out must offer some sort of protection?
As for the sneaky part, do you belive human craft to be powerful enough to outsmart the dragons?
I do not deny that there might be powerfull spells of divanation and stuff that might bluff them according to your practice. I however think they would just backfire sinec the things you protect against gave inspiration to them..
But you your self said you are not that good at casting spells, do you think your that much safer than us?
Sinec you feel you have to us advice i can offer you some; power makes one blind.
Eon, the belife of Gaia dosen't blow of a theori of eithr Gods or good or bad force does it? it just states a teori\belif about nature beeing a self avere thing...
As for the refering to the Devil, (this is based on that Yahweh is the old hebrev spelling of jahve\jehova...) then you must agree in beliving Jahve exists, putting your faith in the one who kicked him out must offer some sort of protection?
As for the sneaky part, do you belive human craft to be powerful enough to outsmart the dragons?
I do not deny that there might be powerfull spells of divanation and stuff that might bluff them according to your practice. I however think they would just backfire sinec the things you protect against gave inspiration to them..
But you your self said you are not that good at casting spells, do you think your that much safer than us?
Sinec you feel you have to us advice i can offer you some; power makes one blind.
I might agree the individual exists or existed - that doesn't mean that I agree with everything written about that individual, does it? And that's an answer to both your questions about Lucifer and Yahweh, if you think about it...
About Wiccans - they don't solely believe in Gaia, so no, you're right, belief in Gaia doesn't preclude belief in other Gods. However I also said that they don't seem to believe in pure good or evil, so pure good or evil deities are also out (not that they don't believe in entities that you might consider pure good or evil, just that they don't believe anything is all bad or all good).
Do I believe Human craft to be powerful enough to outwit Demons? Nope, but you don't outwit with power - you do so with wisdom. Collected Human wisdom is capable of keeping a person out of trouble, provided they apply it sensibly. It's about as hard as not getting mugged - you're just careful about what you say, what you do and where you go. Nothing I do harnesses any spirit I would be unwilling to speak to - I avoid the nasties I don't try and trick them into doing my will!
That should also answer your question of whether I feel safer than you. Yes, because although a poor swimmer, I know not to get out of my depth. Those that dabble without that knowledge run the risk of drowning.
Thank you for your advice, in return I would counter that Power doesn't make one blind. Closing one's eyes makes one blind.
My eyes are open - are yours?
About Wiccans - they don't solely believe in Gaia, so no, you're right, belief in Gaia doesn't preclude belief in other Gods. However I also said that they don't seem to believe in pure good or evil, so pure good or evil deities are also out (not that they don't believe in entities that you might consider pure good or evil, just that they don't believe anything is all bad or all good).
Do I believe Human craft to be powerful enough to outwit Demons? Nope, but you don't outwit with power - you do so with wisdom. Collected Human wisdom is capable of keeping a person out of trouble, provided they apply it sensibly. It's about as hard as not getting mugged - you're just careful about what you say, what you do and where you go. Nothing I do harnesses any spirit I would be unwilling to speak to - I avoid the nasties I don't try and trick them into doing my will!
That should also answer your question of whether I feel safer than you. Yes, because although a poor swimmer, I know not to get out of my depth. Those that dabble without that knowledge run the risk of drowning.
Thank you for your advice, in return I would counter that Power doesn't make one blind. Closing one's eyes makes one blind.
My eyes are open - are yours?
Jango
New Member
Actually, on this one forum, you would. =P[b said:
mrpopdrinker
New Member
Eon, I think Jango is speaking of another forum.
[toj.cc]El Jefe[sww:D]
New Member
There is a big difference on what offends an atheist and what offends a Christian. There are no real set of beliefs of things that are wrong to atheists (just that there is no God), let alone are to be abhorred. Think about it for one second. On an atheist forum, what would everyone think of a person teaching how to pray? Something similar to, "What an idiot, there's no reason to pray; there is no God." Here, however, we accept that magick might exist, we don't flat out think you are a moron for teaching people to practice it. We, however, plainly see that it is offensive to what our religion represents. Also, the more a person knows about magick, the more likely he is to be tempted into practicing it. For example: if I didn't know the sport of baseball existed or how it is played, how would I ever be tempted to play it? I couldn't, or at least I would need to go research the rules. You are offering the rules where they should not be offered, as "baseball" is a direct insult to the nature of the board. I understand that you think (only in the sense that magick may or may not be real) you are doing all this to protect beginning practicers, which is respectable. It could be said metaphorically that instead of teaching safe sex, we would like you to help us promote abstinance. All I ask is that if you do offer your instructions, offer them in a different format; via e-mail or IM/PM.
Well, as I've said, if the collected Mods are dead set against it being taught in the forum then I will offer to hold such discussions offline - but I won't do so in secret, and this is still not the spirit of what you are asking me to do, it's only the letter. What you really want me to do is not teach Christians the rudiments of craft - something even you don't expect to happen.
Teaching abstinence - in magick and in sex - works fine for those that toe the line, but for those whom curiosity leads astray it can lead to dreadful consequences. I won't with hold life saving information and counsel in order to prevent ruffled feathers.
As regards the unspoken issue of "poaching", you have to remember who I am and what I believe. If I see people who are in need of another path, then I will advise them accordingly, and steer them where I think they should be. That might be Odinism, it might be Wicca or it might be Christianity - depends on the person.
Teaching abstinence - in magick and in sex - works fine for those that toe the line, but for those whom curiosity leads astray it can lead to dreadful consequences. I won't with hold life saving information and counsel in order to prevent ruffled feathers.
As regards the unspoken issue of "poaching", you have to remember who I am and what I believe. If I see people who are in need of another path, then I will advise them accordingly, and steer them where I think they should be. That might be Odinism, it might be Wicca or it might be Christianity - depends on the person.
[toj.cc]El Jefe[sww:D]
New Member
It seems we have an interesting conflict of interests, in which we both think we are attempting to save lives. Odd.
Heh, wasn't trying to call you out Eon, I just expected more than what you gave me is all!
All too often I've been given poo answers, and I guess the short answers, though a long list, were not sufficient for my critical brain.
Hey, I'm a political science major, gimme a break.
Van
All too often I've been given poo answers, and I guess the short answers, though a long list, were not sufficient for my critical brain.
Hey, I'm a political science major, gimme a break
.Van
Ahh, then you've studied politics more formally than I have. <smile>
I'll try and give you something you can sink your teeth into later - but we're working towards our Alpha submission here, and as anyone can tell you, if you're getting enough time to eat, sleep and bathe then you're doing well.
El Jefe - you have put your finger on it, I think.
I'll try and give you something you can sink your teeth into later - but we're working towards our Alpha submission here, and as anyone can tell you, if you're getting enough time to eat, sleep and bathe then you're doing well.
El Jefe - you have put your finger on it, I think.