Any regrets

When I was very young I remember thinking this:

"If it turns out there is no God then Christians are in the same boat as everyone else, however if Christians are right then they get eternal life but everyone else gets hell; why risk it?"

Now I realise that that is a peurile thought. I know that one must truly believe and truly be convicted, and like Eon and Ghandi not everyone has that. However the concept behind it makes me think: what wires a brain to accept a life of hopelessness. When I say hopelessness I do not mean dispair, I just mean purposelessness. If we die and we become nothing, our consciousness disappears, then there is no purpose. Why that means that Hitler, Ghandi (the historical figure), and Elvis Presley are alloted the same thing even though their lives are so different. No eternal consequinces, no eternal laws.

Naturally, this philosophy followed on it's most direct path would leads one to Hedonism: if I take pleasure in it I do it because there are no consequinces or laws. Now I realise there are earthly consequinces, but aren't these earthly laws based on what was inspired on Sanai? Do not murder, do not steal, etc.? Now lets speculate what happens if Hedonistic Atheism Phylosophy takes over the whole earth. There is no more law, there is no more good or bad, only selfish pleasure seeking.

Finally, I know that as Eon and Ghandi state they try to live moral lives. However the phylosophy that they cling to has no tenent that justifies "good" living. You are hypocrites to live good lives. You keep a "dignity" that is rooted in Theism. Your being "good" in the Theistic sense is a strawman for defending your Atheism. You have no right to try living "good" or "moral" because the end route of your phylosophy is that there is no "good" or "moral."

When you stand before Jehovah, will you try to put one over Him by saying "look, I lived by your standards but you never showed yourself." Doesn't the simple fact that you hold to this hypocritical Atheism prove that God is present in your conscience? As Elijah said "If Jehovah is God follow Him, if Baal is god follow him!" If you follow Atheism why don't you live like it!
 
[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff said:
DV, before you start talking about logical problems associated with the theory, please note that many respected philosophers also believe that the Wager is valid. I came to Jesus for other reasons, but Gandhi asked if I would have any regrets... I'm not sure why you believe that I, for some reason, must be uninformed simply because we disagree on the validity of an argument, or what that has to do with Gandhi's original question. Do you believe that all Christians must be uninformed, or is that simply a function of the fact that so many Christians have really never taken the time to examine their own beliefs?
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If you'd like to discuss Pascal's Wager in depth in a separate thread, I'd be more than happy to. I believe that under scrutiny and logical examination Pascal's Wager will show its flaws.

I don't know where you get the notion that I think that you are uninformed. Uninformed about what?

I do, however, believe that many Christians accept their beliefs without ever questioning them thoroughly.
 
Jericho_falls said:
Finally, I know that as Eon and Ghandi state they try to live moral lives. However the phylosophy that they cling to has no tenent that justifies "good" living. You are hypocrites to live good lives. You keep a "dignity" that is rooted in Theism. Your being "good" in the Theistic sense is a strawman for defending your Atheism. You have no right to try living "good" or "moral" because the end route of your phylosophy is that there is no "good" or "moral."
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This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Why is dignity rooted in theism? Why do you believe that you MUST have religious dogma in order to have morality? Moreover, why do you believe that YOUR religious morality is better than another religion's morality?

I have no right to live a "good" life? Do you hear yourself? Your argument might hold even the slightest bit of interest if Christian morality had stayed the same over the years. It has NOT. Therefore, how can you claim it to be a rigid system devoid of change? Just because the words are written down to follow doesn't mean everyone interprets them the same way.

Please explain why you believe that I cannot live a just and moral life without following your brand of Christianity. Sorry, but I am deeply insulted.
 
A. How has Christian morality changed?

B. According to the Atheistic phylosophy what is dignity?

C. According to the Atheistic phylosophy what are morals?

D. What place do these virtues hold in Atheism and why should Atheists adhere to them?

E. If Atheists should adhere to a form of morality, how do you justify Atheism as a non-religion?
 
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Jericho_falls said:
A. How has Christian morality changed?
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God & Jesus support the idea of slavery. Modern day Christians do not. Or is there something you need to tell us?

B. According to the Atheistic phylosophy what is dignity?
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Dignity is the quality or state of being worthy, honored, or esteemed.

C. According to the Atheistic phylosophy what are morals?
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Morality refers to principles of right and wrong in behavior. Right and wrong are subjective terms that are defined by history, geography, society and family.

D. What place do these virtues hold in Atheism and why should Atheists adhere to them?
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These virtues and others are of supreme importance to atheists. Seeing as how we do not believe in an afterlife, this life, the here are now, are all we have. By not adhering to virtue we quickly slip into anarchy.

E. If Atheists should adhere to a form of morality, how do you justify Atheism as a non-religion?
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Religion is defined as the service and worship of God or the supernatural. As an atheist I do not have enough proof or evidence to believe in any god, henceforth I do not worship any gods. Atheism is simply a doctrine, not a religion. A-theism means a LACK of theism, therefore it cannot be defined as a religion.

Why do you believe atheists are incapable of having morals? Once again I ask for you to explain why you believe that I cannot live a just and moral life without following your brand of Christianity.
 
Dark Virtue said:
I don't know where you get the notion that I think that you are uninformed. Uninformed about what?
QUOTE]

Dark Virtue said:
I'm going to assume you are unaware of the logical problems associated with that theory.
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DV, there ya go. If you want to argue semantics of "unaware" versus "uninformed", fine, but in the context you were using, you made an incorrect assumption.

And also, no need to make a separate thread about Pascal's Wager. It's a fairly valid, but unnecessary argument. In a nutshell, you'll tell me that it's first flaw is that it assumes a positive probability of the existence of God, I'll counter with science's inability to explain the creation of life via abiogenesis as proof of a positive probability, you'll come back with the fact that we have no proof that the Christian God is the one who started it all, I'll come back with archaeology, which you'll dispute, on and on and on with no change in either of our positions, because we've both already made up our mind about religion, Christianity, God, and other Big Issues Worth Arguing Over Until We're Blue In The Face. (BIWAOUWBITFs, if you will.)
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
Originally Posted by Jericho_falls
A. How has Christian morality changed?
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God & Jesus support the idea of slavery. Modern day Christians do not. Or is there something you need to tell us?
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Which idea of slavery are we talking about?

You are technically a slave to the laws and government you live under, you are not free from them. You are legally and economically bound to them. You are not as free as you would like to think. Your freedom begins and ends with which master (country and by virtue its set of laws and regulations) you are willing to be bound to.
 
And one other thing:

Morality refers to principles of right and wrong in behavior. Right and wrong are subjective terms that are defined by history, geography, society and family...

These virtues and others are of supreme importance to atheists. Seeing as how we do not believe in an afterlife, this life, the here are now, are all we have. By not adhering to virtue we quickly slip into anarchy.
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Follow this for a moment. You claim to be a Free Thinker, which basically means you attempt to view the world from a perspective void of the influences of religious dogma. Since the virtues that we are taught come largely from that same religious dogma you and other Free Thinkers have shunned, doesn't this leave the Atheist free to choose whatever virtues he/she thinks are important? If one is free to choose whatever tenets of society's moral code one wishes (in your words, not adhering to virtue), according to you, that leads us down the road to anarchy. So, does Atheism lead to anarchy?
 
ACtually I believe that the principles of right and wrong are older than religion and that religion is a building up of those, even as the Law is a building up of religion.

Regarding Atheistic morals etc - I'm not an atheist. I fully believe that one day I will join my ancestors, and I would hate for them to be disapointed in me.
 
Regarding Atheistic morals etc - I'm not an atheist. I fully believe that one day I will join my ancestors, and I would hate for them to be disapointed in me.
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Eastern style or Native American style? I've always wanted to learn more about Native American religion... if that's the type of dogma you practice, may I ask what the tenets are and why you choose to believe them? (Reader's Digest version with linkage would be preferred, if you have the time. :) )
 
No, it's nothing like that.

Although I'm something of an Animist, I don't really follow a prescribed mode of Animsm - so no Manitou worship. :)

I'd like to be a Shinto, but I don't really know enough about it.
 
[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff said:
Dark Virtue said:
I don't know where you get the notion that I think that you are uninformed. Uninformed about what?
QUOTE]



DV, there ya go. If you want to argue semantics of "unaware" versus "uninformed", fine, but in the context you were using, you made an incorrect assumption.

And also, no need to make a separate thread about Pascal's Wager. It's a fairly valid, but unnecessary argument. In a nutshell, you'll tell me that it's first flaw is that it assumes a positive probability of the existence of God, I'll counter with science's inability to explain the creation of life via abiogenesis as proof of a positive probability, you'll come back with the fact that we have no proof that the Christian God is the one who started it all, I'll come back with archaeology, which you'll dispute, on and on and on with no change in either of our positions, because we've both already made up our mind about religion, Christianity, God, and other Big Issues Worth Arguing Over Until We're Blue In The Face. (BIWAOUWBITFs, if you will.)
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If you read that quote in context, you will find that it wasn't a belittling remark, which I believe was your problem with my statement, no?
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Gods_Peon said:
Which idea of slavery are we talking about?

You are technically a slave to the laws and government you live under, you are not free from them. You are legally and economically bound to them. You are not as free as you would like to think. Your freedom begins and ends with which master (country and by virtue its set of laws and regulations) you are willing to be bound to.
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By slavery I mean the state of a person who is a chattel of another.
 
[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff said:
And one other thing:



Follow this for a moment. You claim to be a Free Thinker, which basically means you attempt to view the world from a perspective void of the influences of religious dogma. Since the virtues that we are taught come largely from that same religious dogma you and other Free Thinkers have shunned, doesn't this leave the Atheist free to choose whatever virtues he/she thinks are important? If one is free to choose whatever tenets of society's moral code one wishes (in your words, not adhering to virtue), according to you, that leads us down the road to anarchy. So, does Atheism lead to anarchy?
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Here's a great example: The Golden Rule. It can be described as "Treat others as you would have others treat you." This is a principle of Christianity, right? However it is also a basic tenent in the majority of the world's religions.

Do you consider the Golden Rule a Christian tenent? Considering that other religions, some far older than Christianity, hold the same ideal, I don't think it's fair to attribute it to any one religion. Also, this ideal has not basis in a religious dogma, it has it's basis in humanity, and that puts it at the core of morality and virtue. Just because an idea is shared by religions doesn't make it a religious virtue.

You are correct in saying that every one of us is free to choose our moral codes. That's the world we live in today. YOU have chosen to follow Christian ideals have you not? That is your choice. Humankind has been choosing their morals since its inception. Are we mired in anarchy? I don't think so.

Atheism doesn't lead to anarchy. There are too many other factors to consider besides relgion. Society, history, geography, etc.

Do you believe that all atheists are anarchists?
 
ACtually I believe that the principles of right and wrong are older than religion and that religion is a building up of those, even as the Law is a building up of religion.
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Yes, this is actually true. God created right and wrong, man created religion


and my 2 cents on the topic (disclaimer, this is not the best approach to take and makes for a really strange testimony, but this was the path I started down on my way to accepting Christ)
Before I was a Christian, I was Wiccan and believed in reincarnation. When I started looking into Christianity a bit more seriously, I thought (weighing my options) I can either go to heaven and live with God / die and go to Hell according to the Christian faith or come back again and try to fix what I messed up this time around. Looking at those options, going to heaven looked to be the best. I knew that only after I sincerely accepted Christ would I go to heaven and it actually took some time before I did accept Christ as my Saviour. It was hard for me to get past some of the preconcieved notions I had about Christian living, but given everything that has happened, both the good and the bad, I would not change a minute of it. I have no regrets about my decision to accept Christ and think that I have a richer life because of it.

Gen
 
On slavery:

The emancipation proclaimation was based on the teachings of the new testiment. The movement of Martin Luther King Jr. was based in a strong belief in Jesus. The book of Philemon clearly states the heart of God for slaves: Onesimus was the slave of Philemon and could be killed by him for running away, however Paul exorted mercy and equality. God shows that masters and slaves are equal. THe only slavery set forth in the Bible is the inevitable slavery: either to righteousness or to sin.
 
This post was never supposed to be about if christianity is right or wrong, it was actually a straight forward question. But I've enjoyed reading along.
But I was thinking about it and no christian would ever post on the thread that they would have any regrets since it would be questioning their faith in public, and it might effect their toj membership.
 
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