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SAGAN
Guest
bah, awful text color.
CCGR
Member
Christianity teaches that there is only one to heaven. The road is narrow but the wide road leads to destruction. Now think about it..most people and some religions assume being a good person is enough (wide road) but the only way (narrow road) is through Jesus Christ. No other religion teaches that. There are many great people. There are bad Christians and good agnostics and atheists.
The Bible says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Romans 3:23 NIV). First, we must realize that we are sinners.
Second, The Bible says, "But God demonstrates His love own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us," (Romans 5:8 NIV). In spite of what we have done God loves us and Christ died for us so that we can be saved.
Third, The Bible says, "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,'
and believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved... for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved," (Romans 10:9, 10:13).
The Bible says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Romans 3:23 NIV). First, we must realize that we are sinners.
Second, The Bible says, "But God demonstrates His love own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us," (Romans 5:8 NIV). In spite of what we have done God loves us and Christ died for us so that we can be saved.
Third, The Bible says, "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,'
and believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved... for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved," (Romans 10:9, 10:13).
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SAGAN
Guest
Are you saying that bad Christians can goto Heavan, because they confess that "Jesus is Lord"?
They can do whatever they like, cause pain to whoever they want, but before they die. If they confess their sins, they're all free and ready to goto Heavan?
Yet someone who has dedicated their life to caring, helping, and not harming others, but is not a believer of Christ, will.. goto hell?
It seems pretty fair that I could go kill/harm people, but as long as I confess my sins, and be a believer of Christ, that it's all good. And that I can then goto Heavan.
They can do whatever they like, cause pain to whoever they want, but before they die. If they confess their sins, they're all free and ready to goto Heavan?
Yet someone who has dedicated their life to caring, helping, and not harming others, but is not a believer of Christ, will.. goto hell?
It seems pretty fair that I could go kill/harm people, but as long as I confess my sins, and be a believer of Christ, that it's all good. And that I can then goto Heavan.
CCGR
Member
Just because someone says those words does not give them a ticket to heaven. (that's called fire insurance) God knows a persons heart and if they truly do confess their sins and become a Christian..they ideally won't go out an kill someone for fun. There is a guy at my church who od'd on cocaine and his heart was failing (very rare anyone survives this) he was not a Christian nor lived like one. Anyways with his heart panicing he dedicated the remainder of his life to God if he would save him and he did! Now if he was only lying God would have know. But this guy meant what he said and dedicates his life to the Lord. Just remember God will not be mocked. But God does take a person who is truly willing to accept him no matter what they have done. Many churches have jail ministries you think a person is unworthy to hear God loves them? God judges not us.
Remember salvation is not of good works. Only Jesus. Otherwise we might as well have evolved from monkeys.
Remember salvation is not of good works. Only Jesus. Otherwise we might as well have evolved from monkeys.
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Moody
Guest
Hes saying that you would be willing to give up your life even on the cross confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord of all creation. Wherever you live im assuming there isnt that much religious persecution compared to that in some arabic countries and communist countries. There many times if you say that you are a christian you will have to lose your life because it is a crime to be one. It was a crime to be a christian when it was writen too. In those times if the romans found out you were a christian you many times had to battle lions in the Arena. Its like Jesus said Mathew 17:24Then Jesus said to his deciples If anyone wants to come after me he must deny himself and take up the cross and follow me." That means that anyone who does not give up everything in his life, and become a non stereotypical christian will not recieve Jesus's mercy
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SAGAN
Guest
Well it seems all lovely, if someone who has cause harm, can goto Heavan, if he really wants to become a Christian. But how does that help people that he/she has already caused harm to? The damage is done, and thats great for that person who can have salvation.
But how can God be all forgiving if that person has caused harm to other people, those people may still suffer from harm caused to them, weather they are Christian or not.
But how can God be all forgiving if that person has caused harm to other people, those people may still suffer from harm caused to them, weather they are Christian or not.
CCGR
Member
God can turn a bad situtation to good and use it for his purposes. The Bible has a story about Joseph a favored brother out of 12. His other brothers were so mad at him that they sold him as a slave in egypt. They told his dad that he was dead. It got worse for Joseph, he was accused of sleeping with his masters wife when he didn't and was thrown in jail and forgotten about. Pretty bad right? Well God saw him through it and made him a powerful overseer and helped Egypt through a massive famine. His family went to him for food and all was forgiven. You see? God can turn things around.
There are many martyrs for the Christian faith. Why would God let them die? Well some died so bravely they converted their accusers! We have chances in our life to accept God...if we don't it's our fault not Gods
There are many martyrs for the Christian faith. Why would God let them die? Well some died so bravely they converted their accusers! We have chances in our life to accept God...if we don't it's our fault not Gods
"Maxx, please take that down, I think he came here so his questions could be answered without him being harrassed. This is an opertunity to share your faith not make fun of people. "
The fact that he refuses think logically and still expect us to is rather amusing to me. And maybe he doesn't really want us to answer his questions. Maybe he wants to fight and fight until he thinks he's backed us into a corner, just like all the other guys before him...
Well, at least he's civil and respectable.
The fact that he refuses think logically and still expect us to is rather amusing to me. And maybe he doesn't really want us to answer his questions. Maybe he wants to fight and fight until he thinks he's backed us into a corner, just like all the other guys before him...
Well, at least he's civil and respectable.
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SAGAN
Guest
Despite how strong my belief was in God, it never helped me through anything. It never helped me through depression, or hurt. People just said "God loves you" but that dosen't help, that just pushes pain back, into denile of pain.
I know many people, some who were also Christian. That went trough tough times caused by others, God never helped them out. Just like he never helped me.
I had to find another way to help myself, and not rely on having faith that a God loves me. I had to cure myself of pain and hurt, not let God do it for me. I had to take care of the problems myself, and I have never felt more happyer in my entire life. Now that I have my own life in control, and not living in faith that God will make everything better for me, because he never had before.
The way you describe God turning things around, can also be refurred to as Karma.
I know many people, some who were also Christian. That went trough tough times caused by others, God never helped them out. Just like he never helped me.
I had to find another way to help myself, and not rely on having faith that a God loves me. I had to cure myself of pain and hurt, not let God do it for me. I had to take care of the problems myself, and I have never felt more happyer in my entire life. Now that I have my own life in control, and not living in faith that God will make everything better for me, because he never had before.
The way you describe God turning things around, can also be refurred to as Karma.
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SAGAN
Guest
MaxX, I am not trying to fight at all, but simply try and learn about the belief of Christianity. If you can't handle people objecting, or questioning it, then you yourself, are not thinking logically.
There is logic in everything, I, like other people could say;
"it's not logical to believe in something you can't prove exists". You can say that God created the world, and the universe, because thats what you believe. It may not be logical to others, but it's logical to you.
Other religions are the same, they provide their own good evidence of how the world, and the universe was created, and to us that seems illogical. But that's what they believe, and it's logical to them.
There is logic in everything, I, like other people could say;
"it's not logical to believe in something you can't prove exists". You can say that God created the world, and the universe, because thats what you believe. It may not be logical to others, but it's logical to you.
Other religions are the same, they provide their own good evidence of how the world, and the universe was created, and to us that seems illogical. But that's what they believe, and it's logical to them.
CCGR
Member
Everyone goes through hard times. No matter what faith you are. Just because a person is,'t Christian their troubles go away. If you think about it, it's through the hard times people learn and elarn to trust in God. He never gives us more than we can't handle. God knows the past present and future. His timing is better than ours. When we want things now, God may say no. And then we only discover why and feel even more blessed. For example I interview 3 times a few months back...that job didn't go through. But since I've stayed here if I get the ideal job I'm talking a 50% pay increase, worst case better benefits. I don't believe in luck. I believe I'm blessed.
I thought we took care of this. We realize that Siddhartha Gautama and other such spiritual leaders existed...that's hard, cold fact. That is not in dispute. What is in dispute is their deity. Besides, these other spiritual leaders usually did NOT claim to be deities. Jesus, however, did. Jesus claimed to be the son of God. That is what we believe.[b said:
Actually, if you do some research, you will find that the Biblical texts have been much better preserved than any other historical text. In fact, its rewritings occur in a timespan much smaller than that of any other historical texts - the FAR second being The Iliad by Homer. If you want me to do the leg work, I will, but I'm sure if you google it you can get the exact numbers...we're talking hundreds of years between the two.[b said:
Some will argue that, due to its claims of divine inspiration, the Bible is not subject to the same criteria. However, this is just ludicrous and is false. The bible passes all criteria put on historical texts with flying colors, and Luke's writing has been backed up so many times by archaeological finds that he has been called by those distinguished in the field "a historian of the first class".
For this very reason, I plan on going into this same field - Biblical archaeology and ancient texts.
[b said:
Nope. These people are most likely not true Christians, as faith shows itself in works, as James says.[b said:
My freind, without Christ we are ALL enemies of God. We have all "done harm" to HIM by sinning. Yet God, who is loving and merciful, forgives us! Isn't that a beautiful thing?[b said:
Furthermore, look at Paul, author of a large portion of the New Testament. Did you know that he, before becoming such a strong warrior for Christ, actually persecuted Christians? Yet look at what God turned him into!
God is a forgiving God, just as we are called to forgive.
Well Sagan, please continue to post, and as I said, feel free to IM me, Gecko670 .
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Moody
Guest
[b said:
[b said:
I would like to add that when the dead sea scrolls were found there was a book of the bible, Isaiah, i think that they found writen 600 years before any other that they had found. They were all excited. They informed magazines, newpapers the works, it was the cover story for many I'm sure. And then they opened it up, and what they found in the text was that it was exactly the same as the others. When people copied books of the bible in those times, they were put to death if what they wrote was not the same as what they were copying. The copying process is quite acurate i must say.
I am going to try to answer your question about why you feel like God never helped you when you were depressed. God knows what is in our hearts, and is the only one that truly does. We as humans go around all the time asking him to solve our problems, even when they are problems that we can handle ourselves. God knows how much you can handle, and when it is more than you can handle, that is when he comes to your rescue. When the pain becomes so unbareable, that he takes the burden away from your heart. My grandpa was an alcoholic for most of his early life, and thought he believed in God. He would always pray to God to help him stop drinking and get his life back on track. At the time he was praying the Lord knew that he still could handle what was happening. Then one night my grandpa got to the point were he could not take it anymore, and was going to kill himself. Before he did he picked up a phone call and called the first pastor he found in the phone book. That night my Grandpa was saved by Jesus (even though he believed in God, he was never truly saved until this night) after that night he never drank another drop of alcohol in his life, and is now a minister. He has not drank for 55 years, and was a raging alcoholic. If that is not true compasion and caring by the Lord, then I do not know what is.
MeanMrMustard
New Member
I just saw this post at its full length, and only skimmed it. I can pretty much guess at most of the posts, standard Christian rhetoric we've discussed before, and don't have time to specifically go through and counter.
I noticed some attempts at proving your faith with evidence though, which I have to comment on. You guys are looking for evidence that backs up your faith, you know what you want the answer to be before you find it. This makes any evidence you present fundamentaly biased and flawed. When a scientist does evidence, or collects data, he must be neutral. The scientific method calls for you to reach conclusions based on the evidence. The Christian way of proving it is looking for evidence, to back up the conclusions you've already made. I'll admit there appears to be some evidence out there, but nothing that would hold up in court. There's evidence somewhere to support just about any claim you can make, the best way to do it is to look at ALL the evidence and THEN make your conclusions. I'd just for once like to see a Christian admit that there really isn't good evidence to back them up, and that its because of faith (not reasoning) that they believe what they do.
I noticed some attempts at proving your faith with evidence though, which I have to comment on. You guys are looking for evidence that backs up your faith, you know what you want the answer to be before you find it. This makes any evidence you present fundamentaly biased and flawed. When a scientist does evidence, or collects data, he must be neutral. The scientific method calls for you to reach conclusions based on the evidence. The Christian way of proving it is looking for evidence, to back up the conclusions you've already made. I'll admit there appears to be some evidence out there, but nothing that would hold up in court. There's evidence somewhere to support just about any claim you can make, the best way to do it is to look at ALL the evidence and THEN make your conclusions. I'd just for once like to see a Christian admit that there really isn't good evidence to back them up, and that its because of faith (not reasoning) that they believe what they do.
MrMustard, I have to go eat, but I would just like to say one thing. That will never happen. We Christians will never admit that. Why? Because it's simply not true.
Oh, and to think that scientists are never biased in their work is ludicrous - they are human, and you can bet your bottom dollar they have bias, most often against Christianity. Heck, most, if not all, of people that attempt to refute such things as the resurrection go into it believing there is no such thing as miracles. Free from bias, Christianity would hold up in court any day. And, if I may add just one thing...court is biased/corrupt, as well. Surely I musn't give examples of cases with later-dispelled verdicts.
Oh, and to think that scientists are never biased in their work is ludicrous - they are human, and you can bet your bottom dollar they have bias, most often against Christianity. Heck, most, if not all, of people that attempt to refute such things as the resurrection go into it believing there is no such thing as miracles. Free from bias, Christianity would hold up in court any day. And, if I may add just one thing...court is biased/corrupt, as well. Surely I musn't give examples of cases with later-dispelled verdicts.
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SAGAN
Guest
[b said:
What about those who commit suicide when their toubles and pain become too much to handle..?
I understand that other spiritual teachers such as Siddhartha Gautama did not claim to be deities, but that dosen't mean they didn't know how things were.
Siddhartha Gautama recieved what we call Enlightenment. By years and years of purity, and compassion. By not breaking precepts (What you call the Commandments), and not performing any acts of "sin".
He was able to goto a place of complete bliss, and happyness (What you call Heavan).
Is there a Christian explination as to where he had gone too? was it Heavan? or somewhere else?
An example of another Buddha, is the Dalai Lama. He is the reincarnation Buddha Chenrezig. Although I know, and Understand that you dont believe in reincarnation.
The people who have committed suicide either A) COULD have stuck it out, and instead they just gave up, and/or B) were most likely NOT Christians anyhow, as MOST Christians would not find themselves that down in the dumps, as it were
Everything you said about Buddha's "enlightenment" is irellevant to the debate. I just erased a paragraph I typed up on it, but then realized I had NO idea what I was refuting. What are you trying to prove with that information? I'm a bit confused..
Everything you said about Buddha's "enlightenment" is irellevant to the debate. I just erased a paragraph I typed up on it, but then realized I had NO idea what I was refuting. What are you trying to prove with that information? I'm a bit confused..
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SAGAN
Guest
Are you saying that God will only help those who are Christian?
And i'm simply stating, if Buddha was able to goto such a place, and not be Christian (Which if course he couldn't be, because there was no Christianity back then). Then why can no-one else, unless they are a follower of Christ?
And i'm simply stating, if Buddha was able to goto such a place, and not be Christian (Which if course he couldn't be, because there was no Christianity back then). Then why can no-one else, unless they are a follower of Christ?
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XOMINOUS ANGELX
Guest
reading the first page I agree with sagan... read my topic.. Im sorry but I see the Bible as a man made tool to engineer power for themselves..... I beleave in god but I dont beleave in MAN.... besides if you research christianities origins you will clearly see it was put together by a bunch of unorganized people who couldn't get the story straight... wiccains are not evil at all.... I know lots of them... and I will say this I rather be in there company than in a bunch of narrow minded SHEEP that qoute man made scriptures and listen to pastors that claim to hear god but never hear god for themselves.....god is real he has to be christianity and organized religion is all a power struggle. don't beleave me read a history book