What is a True Christian

[Dark Virtue]

Perhaps you can teach me about the Holy Days. Why did you, did you believe Jesus was The Only Way whereby we must be saved?

I can't teach you more than what is already in the Bible. As you said, this is an area you need to do some research on, GO FOR IT!

Why did I honor the holy days? Because as a Christian, I followed Christ's example. There was obviously a reason Christ did so, maybe you'll understand why during your research.

With all due respect, we can celebrate until Jesus return, keep the law to the uttermost, but if He does not have our heart, it means nothing!

Just another reason why Pascal's Wager fails.

I don't think that is a fair judgment of me on your part. As I said, my belief is that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies and symbolisms of those Holy Days.

Marcy, what were the reasons God instituted the Holy Days? What did they represent. If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, then those same reasons should be valid. Each festival represented something which should still be important to Christians today. I'm interested in your answer on this one.

God saw your heart in doing that. I am sure He was pleased. Yet, somehow, through all that, you were turned away. It seems not necessarily a good thing. I hate the typed word at times, I do hope you won't take that as hateful or sarcastic, just inquisitive.

Are you saying that if I were a Fundamental Baptist I would still be a Christian? I sincerely doubt it.

If I were to reconvert, I would go right back to worshipping on the Sabbath and celebrating God's Holy Days. Why? Because, as a Christian, it is the RIGHT thing to do. Easter and Christmas are NOT.

 

[Marcylene]

I can't teach you more than what is already in the Bible. As you said, this is an area you need to do some research on, GO FOR IT!

I can read about the ritual and ceremony in the Bible, but I would like to see them firsthand or learn from someone who has/does participate! I was thinking the next time we got together for CGA convention, it would be neat to carry out the Passover feast as someone explains the rich symbolism.

Just another reason why Pascal's Wager fails.

I beg to differ. I think it is simply food for thought from a Christian genius mathematical mind. I think this was his way of asking someone to consider the possibility of God and to take a cold hard look at the positions of ones eternal soul. Once again, let me remind you, Pascal was a genius! We continue to discuss his wager and think upon God in the process! What a witness he still is! Thus Pascal's Wager is far from being a faliure!

Marcy, what were the reasons God instituted the Holy Days? What did they represent. If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, then those same reasons should be valid. Each festival represented something which should still be important to Christians today. I'm interested in your answer on this one.

The same yesterday, today, and forever! What I know about the symbols of Passover you can hold in a thimble, to be quite honest. But considering this event, it was a picture of our eternal life through Jesus' blood. It was a way for the Old Testament saint to proclaim belief in the Lamb's Blood. We are now not covered in that blood ceremoniously, but by simply accepting Jesus. Those are my thoughts, I am no expert, I admittedly have studying to do on the subject.

Are you saying that if I were a Fundamental Baptist I would still be a Christian? I sincerely doubt it.

OUCH! Must you always pick, pick, pick??? So close to home! You have gone from preaching to meddling now! There are many religions that do not partake in Holy Day celebrations.

If I were to reconvert, I would go right back to worshipping on the Sabbath and celebrating God's Holy Days. Why? Because, as a Christian, it is the RIGHT thing to do. Easter and Christmas are NOT.

The church of the type you describe seems to be few and far between! If only we could clone you back to your Christian self as a single man, I would maybe just marry you in a heartbeat! Well, as long as we could also worship on Sunday, when the good churches are open!!

 

[Arkanjel]

I can read about the ritual and ceremony in the Bible, but I would like to see them firsthand or learn from someone who has/does participate! I was thinking the next time we got together for CGA convention, it would be neat to carry out the Passover feast as someone explains the rich symbolism.

If you want to experience these feasts firsthand, you should find a Messianic Synagogue in your area. I attend one in my area and have been amazingly blessed with all that I have learned about our roots. To hear the shofar being blown before every service will send shivers of anticipation down your spine.

Well, as long as we could also worship on Sunday, when the good churches are open!!

Worshipping on Sunday was implemented by the romans who were trying to divorce themselves from anything even slightly Jewish. This is sad because Jesus worshipped on the Sabbath which goes from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday. There is nothing wrong with the synangogues that worship on Saturday, or Friday for that matter. When you have the word of God presented to you from the perspective that Jesus understood it, it will bless you beyond belief. Being involved with Jewish believers is pretty awesome, they have insights into the Bible that you would not even begin to imagine.

 

[Marcylene]

A shofar? I cannot begin to imagine! I bet it is gloriously beautiful!

While I don't agree with many things the Catholic views, when I lived in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area, there seemed to be many Catholic churches that had their services broadcast at Christmas. After taking a peek, the whole ceremony intrigued me. I think I would love visiting a Jewish synagogue and I imagine it to be like some of those Catholic ceremonies. It is my understanding though that you must be Jewish to partake in any of there Holy Day celebrations. I wonder if there are any that stay with tradition, but still trust in Christ as Saviour? That would be interesting to learn from them! Nevertheless, I would never want to leave my Baptist roots. They are called "hell, fire, and brimstone" preachers but they teach plenty on Love and the God of the Word! I even enjoy listening in my free time!

Concerning Sunday worship services, Hank Hanegraaff in his book, The Bible Answer Book says:

1. In remembrance of the Resurrection the early Christian church changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

2. God Himself provided this new pattern of worship to the early church with not only His Resurrection day, but the Holy Spirit's decent on Pentecost Sunday.

3. Scripture provides us with insight into the symbol of the Sabbath:
a. A celebration of God's work in Creation.

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Genesis 2: 1&2

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore they LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:11

b. After the Exodus the Sabbath expanded to a celebration of God's deliverance from oppression in Egypt.

And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day. Deuteronomy 5:15

c. As a result of the resurrection the Sabbath's emphasis shifted once again. It bcame a celebration of the "rest" we have throught Christ who delivers us from sin and the grave. Hebrews 4:1-11

For the emerging Christian church, the most dangerous snare was a faliure to recognize that Jesus was the substance that fulfilled the symbol of the Sabbath.

Finally, if you insist on being slavishly bound to Old Testament laws you should also be forewarned that failing to keep the letter of the law might be hazardous to your health. Accordign to the Mosaic Law, anyone who does any work on the Sabbath "must be put to death."

Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Exodus 35:2

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Galatians 3:13

The Sabbath was "a shadow of the things that were to come"; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

 

[Arkanjel]

A shofar? I cannot begin to imagine! I bet it is gloriously beautiful!

Its awesome.

I think I would love visiting a Jewish synagogue and I imagine it to be like some of those Catholic ceremonies. It is my understanding though that you must be Jewish to partake in any of there Holy Day celebrations. I wonder if there are any that stay with tradition, but still trust in Christ as Saviour?

I attend a MESSIANIC synagogue, did you visit or even read that lenghty post I put up a few posts ago? The congregation is about 15% Jewish and 85% gentile. ALL accept Christ.

Concerning Sunday worship services, Hank Hanegraaff in his book, The Bible Answer Book says:

Do a google search on his name and see what you come up with. Mr. Hanegraaff kinda sounds like a mega-minister who is in it for the money. I dont claim to know his heart, but his actions point us in that direction. If that be the case do you think this man would actually do the real reseach to find out the real truth of christianities roots, or would he be willing to say what sells?

1. In remembrance of the Resurrection the early Christian church changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

Not so, many early chrisitans followed Chrisits lead in honoring the sabbath. The change to Sunday worship was instigated by the Romans, mainly Constantine to seperate themselves from the Jews who also recognized the Sabbath.

2. God Himself provided this new pattern of worship to the early church with not only His Resurrection day, but the Holy Spirit's decent on Pentecost Sunday.

If you follow what happened with Jesus ressurection, he was taken off the cross BEFORE the sabbath began, and then he was in the tomb for 3 days. So If he was even put in the tomb on thursday night he would not have ressurected till Sunday night, but most likely he was taken down Friday and didnt ressurect till tuesday. The sabbath does not begin until sundown on Friday night.

3. Scripture provides us with insight into the symbol of the Sabbath:
a. A celebration of God's work in Creation.

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Genesis 2: 1&2

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore they LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:11

b. After the Exodus the Sabbath expanded to a celebration of God's deliverance from oppression in Egypt.

And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day. Deuteronomy 5:15

c. As a result of the resurrection the Sabbath's emphasis shifted once again. It bcame a celebration of the "rest" we have throught Christ who delivers us from sin and the grave. Hebrews 4:1-11

For the emerging Christian church, the most dangerous snare was a faliure to recognize that Jesus was the substance that fulfilled the symbol of the Sabbath.

If you look at any gregorian calender which is the calender we all use today, Sunday is the FIRST day of the week on the calender. I dont deny that the sabbath is to remain holy, but Saturday is the last day of the week, or the 7th day.

Finally, if you insist on being slavishly bound to Old Testament laws you should also be forewarned that failing to keep the letter of the law might be hazardous to your health. Accordign to the Mosaic Law, anyone who does any work on the Sabbath "must be put to death."

Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Exodus 35:2

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Galatians 3:13

The Sabbath was "a shadow of the things that were to come"; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

I am "slavishly bound" as you put it to being a disciple of Christ and to doing everything that my Master did and does. Jesus followed the Torah to the T or as he put it,"yot and tittle" He will explain to us everything that was written of the Law [Torah]. Fortunately we are no longer bound as being judged by the Torah as Christ died for us to set us free. I dont follow the laws of the Torah to find salvation, that is Legalism. I follow the laws of the Torah because of my salvation and out of obediance to Jesus' example.

 

[Avesther]

If you follow what happened with Jesus ressurection, he was taken off the cross BEFORE the sabbath began, and then he was in the tomb for 3 days. So If he was even put in the tomb on thursday night he would not have ressurected till Sunday night, but most likely he was taken down Friday and didnt ressurect till tuesday. The sabbath does not begin until sundown on Friday night.

I have always understood the scripture as saying he was raised on the third day. Today is the first day, tomorrow as the second day and the day after as being the third day. I've never had an issue with reconciling dieing on the cross of Friday (before sunset, today), Sabath as the second day and Sunday as the third day, the day on which he would resurect. Am I missing something?

 

[Dark Virtue]

I think you are missing something:

The Sunday resurrection tradition is the result of not understanding the events of the Passover week. Most Christians have little knowledge of the Jewish holy day seasons. At the time Jesus was crucified the Jews were about to observe an annual holy day, not the weekly Sabbath. John 19:14 tells us, ". . . it was the preparation of the passover. . . ." This was the term that was used for the Passover itself, as well as the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The Passover is described in Numbers 28:16–17. Here we read: "And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD. And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten." This is describing what has commonly been called the Passover week. The Passover is observed on the fourteenth day of the first month, according to the Hebrew calendar. The fifteenth is the first high Sabbath during the Days of Unleavened Bread. While Jesus was on the cross, John 19:31 tells us, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away." Since Jesus was crucified on the fourteenth, the Jews were anxious to bury Him before sundown so that they would not be required do any work on the fifteenth. The fifteenth was a high Sabbath day, which occurred two days before the weekly Sabbath. Jesus was crucified on the fourteenth, that is, the Passover day. Therefore, Jesus was crucified in the middle of the week, not the Friday before the weekly Sabbath.

The true children of God have accepted the sacrifice that was made for them, as well as the only sign He gave to prove His Messiahship—that He would be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights! They know He was crucified on Wednesday and resurrected late Saturday, just before sundown. They know there is no validity to the Sunday resurrection tradition!

From: http://www.bethelcog.org/Cover_ProofOfMessiahship.html

One little google search and you can find TONS of support for Christ's resurrection on Saturday, the Sabbath, NOT Sunday.

 

[Dark Virtue]

The church of the type you describe seems to be few and far between! If only we could clone you back to your Christian self as a single man, I would maybe just marry you in a heartbeat! Well, as long as we could also worship on Sunday, when the good churches are open!!

HA! I think I'm a much better man today, then when I was a Christian. Just ask my wife

I suggest taking a look at this link: http://www.studiesintheword.org/high_days.htm

I think you'll learn a lot from it.

 

[Marcylene]

I attend a MESSIANIC synagogue, did you visit or even read that lengthy post I put up a few posts ago? The congregation is about 15% Jewish and 85% gentile. ALL accept Christ.

Yes, but I am in a very small area, so it might be a bit more difficult. I am not interested in changing churches, just observing them partake in Holy Days and learning what the Bible representation of each item of the celebration means. It is my understanding that the Torah leaves out Jesus as our only way of Salvation, that being that He has already came. I would not follow the teaching because of this. I am curious as to how the Torah fits in with the Old Testament, for therein is the true laws that Jesus followed, and He was the only One who could live the full letter of the law...every jot...every tittle.

Do a google search on his name and see what you come up with. Mr. Hanegraaff kinda sounds like a mega-minister who is in it for the money. I don't claim to know his heart, but his actions point us in that direction. If that be the case do you think this man would actually do the real research to find out the real truth of Christianity's roots, or would he be willing to say what sells?

I don't know of any Godly minister that does not get persecuted, at least verbally. My all time favorites have all been tried by fire! I do not know much about Mr. Hanegraff, but I feel that his message is on target...as for being what sells...the truth is not so easy to sell, that is evident right her in the forums!

Not so, many early Christians followed Christ's lead in honoring the Sabbath. The change to Sunday worship was instigated by the Romans, mainly Constantine to seperate themselves from the Jews who also recognized the Sabbath.

While I need further study it is my understanding that the change actually happened in the Bible for the New Testament church after Christs resurrection...and that was before I read it in the Bible Answer Book!

I am "slavishly bound" as you put it to being a disciple of Christ and to doing everything that my Master did and does. Jesus followed the Torah to the T or as he put it,"yot and tittle" He will explain to us everything that was written of the Law [Torah]. Fortunately we are no longer bound as being judged by the Torah as Christ died for us to set us free. I don't follow the laws of the Torah to find salvation, that is Legalism. I follow the laws of the Torah because of my salvation and out of obedience to Jesus' example.

I think the point that Mr. Hanegraff is trying to make is that if you are going to follow the law, you must do it to the full letter of the law. That is the reason that Jesus came as the Propitiation for our sins, we cannot follow the law to the very letter...not every jot...not every tittle.

 

[Dark Virtue]

"That is the reason that Jesus came as the Propitiation for our sins, we cannot follow the law to the very letter...not every jot...not every tittle."

Then what was the purpose of the Law?

"While I need further study it is my understanding that the change actually happened in the Bible for the New Testament church after Christs resurrection...and that was before I read it in the Bible Answer Book!"

Your understanding is in error.

 

[Didasko]

Then what was the purpose of the Law?

Anyone claiming to have once been a Christian should know the answer to that DV. The law leads us to an understanding of our need for Christs sacrifice and our need for God's grace. It teaches us that we cannot do it on our own.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Eh? You aren't suggesting I wasn't a Christian were you? Or maybe that I wasn't a very good one? on you

I asked, my dear Didasko, becuase Christians disagree on just about everything. I know what reasons "I" had, but I am not addressing myself. And you totally missed the point of the question because you were so eager to rip it out of context. Let me break it down for you, if man could not possibly follow the law then why was that law given to the people of the OT? I'm not talking about CURRENT Christians, I'm more concerned about the men and women that God placed under a law that couldn't possibly be kept. What about THOSE people that died under the old law long before Christ arrived on the scene?

 

[Didasko]

Eh? You aren't suggesting I wasn't a Christian were you? Or maybe that I wasn't a very good one? on you

I asked, my dear Didasko, becuase Christians disagree on just about everything. I know what reasons "I" had, but I am not addressing myself. And you totally missed the point of the question because you were so eager to rip it out of context. Let me break it down for you, if man could not possibly follow the law then why was that law given to the people of the OT? I'm not talking about CURRENT Christians, I'm more concerned about the men and women that God placed under a law that couldn't possibly be kept. What about THOSE people that died under the old law long before Christ arrived on the scene?

lol...DV I have made very clear my views on whether or not you were a Christian or not in prior posts.

As for taking your post out of context...that didn't happen. What I responded with is completely within context even after you 'broke it down for me'.

I'll brake down my reply for you. The people of the OT were in just as much need of God's grace as we are today. God's grace did not start with the death of Jesus. He freely gave forgiveness in the OT as well. There were provisions in the law for petitioning God for forgiveness. Do you think the sacrifices of the OT earned forgiveness? Think again! God's forgiveness in the OT was through grace as much as forgiveness in Christ is
through grace today.

The law gave the jews of the OT something to shoot for while at the same time showing them their need for God's grace.

 

[Dark Virtue]

So what you are saying is that God purposefully set the bar so high that no man could acheive it, correct?

 

[Didasko]

So what you are saying is that God purposefully set the bar so high that no man could acheive it, correct?

Yes, no post fall human can achieve the law set forth by God.

 

[Eon]

Now what you have to ask yourself is WHO BENEFITS, the first step in attributing motive in any crime.

Was it the Church or God himself who benefits most from the bar being too high to EVER be attainable?

 

[Didasko]

Now what you have to ask yourself is WHO BENEFITS, the first step in attributing motive in any crime.

Was it the Church or God himself who benefits most from the bar being too high to EVER be attainable?

Both!

As a school teacher I can tell you that if you set your expectations high the students will achieve more. The opposite is also true. If you set your expectations low the students achievement will be less.

God is our Father and he set our standards high so that we would always have room for improvement.

When the students in my classroom are having trouble completing a problem they come to me for help. They know that if they come to me I can help them move closer to their goal.

God set the standards high so that we will turn to Him for help. We know that with God's help we can move closer to our goal.

God wants us to be dependent on Him. We Christians want to be dependent on Him. It works out great for both of us

 

[Dark Virtue]

Interesting. Why does an omnimax being need/want us to be dependant on Him?

The student analogy has one large flaw. When your students can't reach that bar what are the ramifications? When God's people in the OT couldn't reach that bar, what happened to them?

 

[Eon]

Didasko, whilst setting high expectations can lead to better performance by those more inclined to achieve anyway, setting unreasonably high and, in fact, unattainable expectations just destroys morale and encourages people not to try or care any more.

Perhaps this is an explanation for the current suffering that Christianity is experiencing?

 

[Didasko]

Didasko, whilst setting high expectations can lead to better performance by those more inclined to achieve anyway, setting unreasonably high and, in fact, unattainable expectations just destroys morale and encourages people not to try or care any more.

Perhaps this is an explanation for the current suffering that Christianity is experiencing?

Perhaps my yes answer was too hasty. We can attain the goal. We work toward it during our time here on earth. We get closer and closer and closer so we make constant progress. And eventually we do attain the goal. It happens when we are taken away to heaven.

Our goal is to be as Christlike as we possibly can while here on earth. We can do that. Our goal is not to be perfect but to be as close to perfect as humanly possible while here on earth.