What is a True Christian

OBJECTION!
<Music Change Tempo Up> <Cut to shot of Phoenix Wright banging desk>

Your honour this point is central to 80% of our discussions on this board. By being able to shy away from defining what a 'True' Christian is, the prosecution is able to weasel out of just about any argument by claiming that whoever was involved in a verifiably documented instance of behaviour that supports my clients case is not a True Christian!

I move that the Prosecution no longer be able to make that claim - unless they can prove to the courts satisfaction what a True Christian actually is!

In addition I would like to see the following arguments banned:

1. Self referential use of scripture.
2. Statute of limitations on behaviour.
3. God works in mysterious ways as any sort of definitive answer to anything

I think that until the Prosecution is forced to actually make a stand on these issues, they will continue to run around the matter.
 
Eon said:
OBJECTION!
<Music Change Tempo Up> <Cut to shot of Phoenix Wright banging desk>

Your honour this point is central to 80% of our discussions on this board. By being able to shy away from defining what a 'True' Christian is, the prosecution is able to weasel out of just about any argument by claiming that whoever was involved in a verifiably documented instance of behaviour that supports my clients case is not a True Christian!

I move that the Prosecution no longer be able to make that claim - unless they can prove to the courts satisfaction what a True Christian actually is!

In addition I would like to see the following arguments banned:

1. Self referential use of scripture.
2. Statute of limitations on behaviour.
3. God works in mysterious ways as any sort of definitive answer to anything

I think that until the Prosecution is forced to actually make a stand on these issues, they will continue to run around the matter.
Click to expand...

It's as clear as spring water:)

Even so I think you got the prosecution and the defense backward.
 
Well, maybe I mixed up Prosecution and Persecution... *joke*

No, I know what you mean, but Phoenix Wright is a defence lawyer, so the joke wouldn't have worked any other way. And besides - DV and I are in here, essentially, defending our right to be.
 
Didasko, I don't tell you often enough that you have a perpetual amen corner over here!

Eon, you are a nut, it is the reason I love ya'!! :) Just for you, I would like to repeat, a Christian is one who has been born again by the shed Blood of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins. I take it a step farther, to remind myself, am I saved? Yes, by God's promise of salvation. But am I mirroring the life of Christ? A true Christian will! Its the wheat and tares parable. You may find a Christian not living right, but God remedies that as He grows us. You shall know us by our fruit.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Galatians 5: 22&23

I feel that we have all agreed on being a Christian, Eon. I am starting a poll in your honor. :)
 
Marcylene said:
Didasko, I don't tell you often enough that you have a perpetual amen corner over here!

Eon, you are a nut, it is the reason I love ya'!! :) Just for you, I would like to repeat, a Christian is one who has been born again by the shed Blood of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins. I take it a step farther, to remind myself, am I saved? Yes, by God's promise of salvation. But am I mirroring the life of Christ? A true Christian will! Its the wheat and tares parable. You may find a Christian not living right, but God remedies that as He grows us. You shall know us by our fruit.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Galatians 5: 22&23

I feel that we have all agreed on being a Christian, Eon. I am starting a poll in your honor. :)
Click to expand...

I can agree with that definition:)
 
Didasko said:
I guess my main request is, please don't make unfounded attacks on specific words in my posts to make them appear less credible.

In addition, we are not going to reach agreement in this discussion. I do not accept your argument and you do not accept mine.

Lets agree to disagree:)
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:

I did nothing of the sort.

First, it was not an attack. Second, you used the word, I did not. Third, you're just weaseling out of the argument :p
 
Dark Virtue said:
:rolleyes:

I did nothing of the sort.

First, it was not an attack. Second, you used the word, I did not. Third, you're just weaseling out of the argument :p
Click to expand...


*Didasko shakes his head and sighs as he moves off to another thread*
 
Where trouble is, DV follows...or is that the other way around???
I do believe the heat from that lightbulb is swelling his head!
 
I think as we define what qualities a true Christian will possess, we are also explaining a question that has been posed in many threads, that being why we think we are right! I was surfing for a Christian ladies site and ran across this. I wish I had said that!

http://www.christianfaq.com/

The Mystery Man said:
"There are so many religions out there. How do you know yours is right?"

If you are waiting for an equation or a pie chart or a computer model showing you with certainty that Christianity (or Islam or Atheism or whatever) is the one true faith, you will be waiting until the day you die. I can explain to you how Christianity makes sense to me, but at the end of all my talking the very hard work of discovering the truth will still be left to you and no one else. Sorry.

Also, please do not take the advice of me or any other Christian on why Christianity is best without researching the other religions to see if they are better.

You see, competing religions do not concern me as much as you might expect. I believe we're all looking at God from different angles, and some have come up with very similar but yet different versions of the truth. Some of those differences are barely worth mentioning, some are so massive that I believe they build a chasm between that individual and God.

But all of our perceptions are clouded; we let our own imaginations or greed or desires twist our view of Him. If I'm horny enough, trust me, I'll find a way to work sex into my worship ritual. If I'm greedy enough, I'll twist the Bible to make it sound as if the path to Heaven involves you sending me all of your money. If I'm hateful enough I'll tell myself Allah wants me to crash a plane into your office. And so on. But I respect anyone who goes searching for a greater truth.

But today, here in the western world, it seems the real battle is not between Christianity and Islam or Atheism, but rather a sort of comfortable worldly non-belief. To me the mindless, apathetic, pop-culture-worshipping consumerist is more lost than the devoted, peace-loving Muslim. Both should be told about Christ.

"Why? Since no one knows for sure, then you shouldn't insist on your own view. In other words, with religion there effectively is no truth, since we can't find it for sure."

The fact that the truth isn't obvious doesn't mean it isn't worth searching for. Even if we consistently arrive at different conclusions, man does a good thing by continually trying to find the right one. And if a man thinks he's found the answer, he's obligated to share it. Isn't the truth always better than ignorance?

When discussing this, be careful of the slippery transition between "men disagree about God" to "all men are equally right about God." You could all sit there at your computers and guess about what color my hair is, but even if you all disagree there is still a definite truth, and some of you will come closer to it than others.

Don't let yourself forget that. If God does exist, He is very definite and terribly strong. He has an imagination, emotions, desires, preferences for one thing over another. And he's looking right at you, right now. If there is a God, the closer you get to understanding Him, the better off you'll be.

With that said, let me draw up a few points where Christianity disagrees with other belief systems, and let's me explain why I saw more truth in the Christian version. Christianity says:

1. The universe is the result of a creator.

Of all the parts of Christianity, this is the one easiest for the secular world to buy. To this day a majority of American scientists believe in some kind of a creator being or force, and most of the great thinkers through history have thought the same.

Most others simply leave the question open, saying we cannot know for sure. Only a small percentage of us insist that the universe is definitely the result of a blind accident.

It's no surprise why. It's in our nature to assume that machinery or complexity requires a plan or a designer, and any amount of scientific study of physics shows us a shockingly precise mechanism of forces that make the universe operate as it does. From the formation of atoms to elements to planets to star systems to galaxies, it's amazing stuff. Add in the creation of life, and it's fantastically amazing stuff. Complexity doesn't demand a designer, I guess, but at the least it makes us wonder if there wasn't a plan.

Such a plan would demand a planner who is 1) super-intelligent, 2) super-powerful, 3) living in a place that was around before the universe (it would be quite hard to create the universe from within said universe which, incidentally, does not yet exist at the moment of creation...)

There is the possibility that the universe itself has a kind of intelligence and organizes itself and allowed for the creation of sentient beings, but that's just describing the universe as another incarnation of God, just putting God in a different place.

The Christian idea that a super-powerful being who lives in a realm outside of our physical universe planned and created it from scratch seems to fit everything else we can observe. Christians believe the creator intervenes in our physical world but does not live in it, in the same way a kid playing a video game can influence the game but does not exist in the game. He lives in a completely different reality.

2. There is life after death

I won't get into stories of near-death visions people have reported or alleged ghost sightings. That's just anecdotal evidence, and you can believe or disbelieve that stuff on a story-by-story basis.

I do think that there seems to be an animal side of man that wants to act just like all the other animal life on the planet, and a distinct, non-animal side that seems to be very much in opposition to it. I said elsewhere that no other living thing we can observe seems to have this struggle, this ability to choose its nature. If nothing else, it makes mankind quite unique and it's remarkably difficult to explain from an evolutionary perspective.

Why can't everything just work in unison? If we're all part of a unified biological being, wouldn't all the parts, mind, body, instincts, conscience, function as one? And yet, we often see a thing we want to do and have this other part of us saying we should do this other thing instead. We can tell ourselves that it's just habit, us conforming to the rules our parents gave us. But then we must ask why we still feel that pressure when neither our parents nor anyone else is watching, we must ask who gave those rules to our parents. It's one of those things we take for granted that is really very strange if you think about it.

Christianity, though, says that man is a hybrid, part spirit and part animal, and that the two sides are often in opposition. This makes more sense as you observe your own life and desires and failures from that perspetive. I find that their explanation fits more and more as I go through my life, and yet have been unable to produce empirical evidence that would prove it to an outsider. Sorry.

3. Satan is real

This is a big one. There are lots of religions that believe in a loving creator or an afterlife. Christianity is one of the few that believes in a Satan. This is the belief that makes Christians look the most foolish to nonbelievers (witness the old Saturday Night Live character The Church Lady and her screaming "Satan!" at every turn).

I have to be honest, though. Looking at this world, even if I didn't believe in a God, I think I could buy into the idea of a Satan. This organizing force behind evil, this tempter, actively working toward the personal destruction of men. I can see that.

Things have a way of hitting you when you're at your weakest. The wrong women tend to cross your path when you're the loneliest. The annoyances tend to pile up on days when you're already on the edge, headachey, ready to blow from the moment you rolled out of bed.

Try to give up some vice or other. Alcohol, casual sex, temper tantrums, whatever. And then watch how your vices find you. You alcoholics know what I'm talking about; some party or event or get-together featuring free alcohol will pop up virtually the same day you decide to quit. Try a religious fast; the next day will be free food day at work.

You're calling me crazy. But try it. And watch.

You see, that's the thing about Christianity; it makes you start questioning all those things you've just accepted in your everyday life up until now. If Christianity is true, there are no coincidences. It all plays into the hands of one side or another.

But from a theological standpoint the nature of the conflict between God and Satan works on another level, too. If the authors of the Bible had simply painted the universe as a battle between an equal Good Force and a Bad Force, you can see evidence of that and maybe go along with it... but it would stop making sense at a point.

After all, that indicates that the Bad Force is simply bad because it wants to be bad. For it, bad is good and good is bad. But we don't see anything like that in this world; there is no one who simply loves every bad thing. Every bad man wants things that are themselves good. A car thief just wants a car and/or money; both are good things to have. Even a serial killer wanting the rush of sexual excitement... excitement is a good thing, it's just that he shouldn't get it from raping and killing, etc. Hitler wanted a clean, crime-free, peaceful world. It's just that his idea of how to achieve it was absolutely monstrous. The kids who shot up their High School thought they were getting a kind of justice (getting back at the kids who had picked on them).

You get the idea. In every case, they want the same things we all want, they consider the same things to be good that we consider to be good (justice, power, physical wealth etc.) But a being or man who simply loves pain, sadness, ugliness, injustice, poverty, disease on their own terms is completely alien to us. It doesn't ring true.

Also, a question of which of these two opposing forces created the universe and how they both came to be in opposition is hard to understand. If they're equal, why would we recognize the bad one as being "bad" at all?

Ah, but the Christian story tells the tale of a fallen angel, of a being who was created by God and who was good, but is rebelling against Heaven from within. This supernatural being wants something good (power, control, prestige) but has taken a horrific path toward it, and in doing so has driven himself away from the creator and source of all Good and into a Godless place, a Hell.

So it's a universe that was indeed created by a good God, and thus the inherent preference for good things is still there...but we happen to be living in a world under seige, right at the battle lines of a cosmic war between the two.

It also answers that age-old question of why, if God is the stronger of the two forces, He doesn't just blink Satan out of existence and have it over with. Satan is God's own, every bit as much a child of His as we are. I said HERE that there is a parallel in the Bible, of when King David's son rebelled against him in the Old Testament. In one breath the King was sending his men into battle to destroy Absalom, in the next he was wailing with sadness because he heard his son had been killed.

4. Heaven and Hell are real

Many religions have a kind of Heaven in their belief system, whether it be a very practical paradise filled with virgins and fountains of beer to the Christian concept of going to live with God in an indescribable Heaven. This concept of a nicer post-death place that's out there for the good and the brave and the worthy has found its way into many cultures.

But most of those stories that portray Heaven as a simple vacation spot where we spend eternity on a beach and watching the sunset don't ring true with me, either. After all, an eternal vacation would eventually become Hell for most. How long could you sit on a beach before the boredom drove you insane? A century? A thousand years? Those stories make it sound as if the creator had no use for the eternal souls and had to quickly find a place to put them so they wouldn't be in the way.

The Christians take a little different view, though, saying that the eternal life was our destiny from the start, that we're simply coming back home to our creator. It indicates that the exciting part of our life doesn't really begin until then (the only book that takes place in Heaven, Revelation, sounds like a round-the-clock special effects movie complete with dragons and winged creatures and even conflict.) The idea of God creating an eternal Club Med for His people makes all this seem pointless. The idea that we're coming home to begin our real, spiritual lives, with a Godly purpose, gives it all greater meaning.

And then, you have Hell. The idea of a Hell isn't as popular, but letting millions of deeply evil men and women into Heaven doesn't seem like a great idea, either. If the soul is eternal then it has to go somewhere, and those who aligned themselves with Satan will be imprisoned with him forever, according to the Christians.

I would like to believe that all of us could somehow make it into the paradise, but reality is always harder and harsher than we would like it to be. Every good thing we do seems to take about ten times more effort and trouble than we would like it to.

Look at it this way. Want a quick way to tell the fake diets from the real ones? The fake ones don't require anything from you. Wanna know how you can tell the made-up religions from the real ones?

A diet that says you take two pills, go to bed and wake up 10 pounds lighter is either a fraud or has serious medical side effects. A religion that says you don't need to worry about how you live is just as fraudulent. The real world just does not work that way, either in a spiritual or physical sense. Remember the first time, as a child, you found out why your parents didn't want you playing in the street. Remember the first time you saw death first-hand. Was it prettier or uglier than you expected it to be?

Common objections:

"None of that matters, because the fact that you all disagree proves all religion is false!"

One Atheist professor of mine said "what will you do if you get to Judgment Day and find God riding a camel?!" as if the fact that Islam exists on the same planet as Christianity proves that both are false and thus his Atheism is correct.

But stop and think. Who made Atheism the default belief system? We're all born into this world with no knowledge of why or how any of this came about. People around us disagree on the subject. Why would we then be forced to make the leap in logic to say that, because they disagree, this universe must have created itself, on accident and at random, for no purpose whatsoever? Why in the world would that be the fallback position?

They're presuming that the "why don't we all agree?" dilemma is unique to religious people. The truth is this very same problem confronts the Atheist and materialist and the Agnostic just the same. There are any number of possible answers to these eternal questions that can't be answered by conventional means; we may choose Christianity, we may choose Buddhism, we may choose Atheism. It's just another one of the choices. To say it's the default system is nonsense; it would be just as easy for me to say that since the world cannot agree on one religion, we might as well all revert to Christianity.

"Everyone is born an Atheist!"

Everyone is born not knowing what gravity is, either, but it doesn't prove that we should abandon our belief in it.

We've stumbled on what is both great and terrible about this subject; there is no neutral. It's not like standing in a hallway choosing which door we want to enter through. In that analogy, we could just stay in the hall. It's more like we're falling out of a plane and we must choose which spot on the ground is soft enough to catch us. The choice is up to us. The fact that we must choose is not.

And so we all do choose, whether we want to or not, whether we acknowledge it or not. Even when we choose to be agnostic (that is, choose to leave the question unanswered) we are presuming to know something about God. The agnostic person assumes that if there is a God He does not frown on agnosticism and that there is no negative eternal consequence to such a belief. If they believed there were such consequences, they could not remain agnostic. In refusing to take a position on God they are taking a position on God.

Of course, logically it also goes without saying (though I will say it anyway) that simple disagreement over God does not mean that God doesn't exist. Ask ten of my acquaintances what color pants I wore yesterday and all ten may disagree, but that does not mean I was pantsless the entire day.

If you interviewed those same ten acquaintances about what kind of person I am, about 3 will say I'm quiet and withdrawn (these will be my coworkers) about 2 will say I'm a temperamental jerk (these will be the people I gave the finger to while driving) the rest will say I'm a class clown (my circle of friends). They each have a different opinion on me because they were each looking at me from a different perspective. They're all right. A human personality is made up of many sides; how much more so for God.

But in that analogy, not all of my friends are equally right. The ones who are the most right are the ones who take the most time to understand me, who keep the most open mind, who do not make their decision about me based on prejudices or rumors they've heard. In the same way, there can certainly be faiths that are closer to the truth than others.


"But then why do we all have to believe in Christ? Why can't God just let us all worship the way we want?"

or

"Who gave you the right to push off your beliefs on me!?!?!"


I understand why people say this, but these same people don't take this view with virtually anything else. We all have different opinions, but in most cases there is a truth, there is a right way to do it. It's like the human diet. There are a million diet plans out there that all assure weight loss. But the truth is there is a right way to eat, a way that will maintain your body according to its design. We would do well to find out what that is. If we had never seen a car before we could stand around all day and speculate about what liquid makes it run, and some suggestions (alcohol, kerosene) will work better than others (cow's milk, jello). But we will have not have found the answer until somebody arrives with a gasoline can.

There is a right way. Of course we shouldn't hate the others for their wrong suggestions; but we should not relent if we believe we have the correct one. There is a terrible price to pay for doing it wrong.

"But why is believing that Christ was the messiah so important to God? The Bible acts like that's the main thing that gets you into Heaven."

Maybe, maybe not. Jesus said all men get to Heaven through him, and that's right. But whether or not you need to know his name in order to do it is another matter. I have a hard time believing Jesus only died for those select few lucky enough to have heard the gospel.

But conversely, if you're in a position of choosing whether or not to follow Christ (as everyone reading this is) you have to get context. If Christianity is true, we're in enemy occupied territory, a prison camp. Christ is the rogue, tough-as-nails ex-Vietnam vet the CIA has sent in to rescue us.

Anti-Christians act like God is putting a gun to your head and demanding you follow Christ or else you'll be tossed into Hell. It's more like Christ is trying to save you from the guy with the gun, the one who will drag you into Hell. It's not about bowing to Christ, and more about accepting his help.

"I'm confused."

The following is how I picture it. And it is just a picture, a diagram to help you understand a little bit. This is the last bit in this section so if you aren't interested feel free to hit your "back" button and return to the index, or follow the link at the bottom.

I have stolen much of this from the awesome Christian author and J.R.R. Tolkein buddy C.S. Lewis. Hopefully his family will not sue me.

A creator, for whatever reason, made the universe.

Now, the most remarkable thing about the universe is that it seems ideal to let life come about on certain planets, maybe lots of them. This life, Christians think, is made possible only by God, by His energy, and he made the universe as a sort of garden bed awaiting seeds and saplings.

By some process, humans were made. Christians believe making humans (that is, making beings who could think and act independently as God does and communicate with God) was one of the primary goals of creation.

The first question us believers ask is why He couldn't have just manufactured souls and populated Heaven with them, everyone living in happiness. To me, that would hardly be worth doing; to spit out little identical bits of Himself. After all, that's just more of the same and existence is already filled with Him, right? He'd have billions of Yes Men.

So here's what he does. He combines that spirit with a piece of matter (your body) in this new, physical world He has made. That body and brain brings its own attributes to the table, certain talents, certain physical traits, that affect the personality.

So now that little bit of Him, separated from Him and merged with a body which cannot physically detect Him, goes off on its own into a physical world He created. It begins to change, to grow, to mature. It was a step that made true differentiation possible; otherwise I suspect you and I would just have clung to his robes and stayed there in His light, never to discover ourselves and become individuals and make our own choices. We had to be cut off, in a way.

Everything you do, everything you experience, changes that soul a little bit. It's not that you are a body with a soul inside you like water in a bottle; the two are joined, and when one is changed, the other is changed. That's the idea.

Therefore, what was just another piece of God becomes Freddy or Joey or Maria, a specific being with intelligence, with an attitude, with opinions, with emotions. Some of what you are is soul, some is only a result of physical attributes, but together the soul has grown a unique shape of its own. That's what God wanted; that's what He loves.

You might interject here and say that God wouldn't need to take such a roundabout process, that he could just snap his fingers and there you'd be. Here I think you need to change your time perspective, realize that to God, 80 years is "instantly." He snaps his fingers, and there you are.

It seems like a long time to you but you're in a bad position to recognize time; you're only on this Earth for a short bit of it. A match will only stay aflame for a few seconds, but if that flame had a mind it would reckon that few seconds as it's entire life, the five seconds it takes us to touch it to a candle wick almost an unbearable infinity in the flame's eyes. It would wonder what was taking us so long.

Anyway, the plan, I think, was to do all that and bring the souls back to Him after they had completed this changes, this fermentation process we call life.

Keep that in mind, too, that when we go back to Him, our personalities don't get erased. That would have been a big waste of time. No, the person you are becoming is the person you will still be in eternity. I think God is looking forward to that as much as you are; to sit you in front of him, to talk, to laugh, to enjoy your attitude, who you have become the way any parent enjoys talking to their adult kids.

Now, Christians do not believe God existed alone. There is a race of immortal beings that are to humans what humans are to bacteria. They're on a whole different level, and do not recognize time and space as we do. We call them spirits or devils or angels or demons, depending on how friendly they are to us. The truth is we know almost nothing about them.

Christians believe one of these beings got fed up with God and set himself in opposition. We don't know what his beef was specifically but it seems to be the same thing that pits all living things against one another: power. He wanted to be God or to be equal to God or whatever. This seems contradictory to the idea of an all-powerful God, but again God grants free will to the things He creates. I think the occasional conflict is inevitable (the leader of any organization can also back me up when I say that the occasional conflict is a healthy thing).

But anyway, some way or another this world became a front in their conflict. Not the physical planet so much; that's worthless to him because it's temporary. Owning it would mean nothing. But the souls are eternal. The souls are his territory; that's what he wants. We're what he wants. If you believe this and are not terrified by it, you haven't thought about it enough.

Why does Satan want us? I don't know. Lewis speculated that since we've got pieces of God inside us, Satan wants to absorb them, to make himself stronger like a revolutionary gathering troops to his side. Or maybe it's just out of spite, to deny them to God.

Either way, Satan went to work on some of your ancestors and sold them on the idea of rebelling against God, of setting out to be their own gods, convincing them that they were strong enough and wise enough to do such a thing. We tell the story with Satan as a serpent and an apple and all that but it doesn't matter how exactly it looked; you get the gist of it.

After that, this world turned ugly. The lines of communication between man and God turned to static, the evil men and women bred and corrupted their children. The sprawling genetic tree of mankind became diseased.

Attempts were made to save it, huge chunks of it were sacrificed, wars were fought each time God intervened. There seemed to be a permanent animosity between man and God.

It is at this point when Christians believe God bridged the gap by, in a sense, becoming a man.

Most people don't get this part, why Jesus would have to come to Earth to do something like this. The only parallel I can offer, and it's kind of a stupid one, is that it's like trying to coax a frightened cat to come to you. Think how much easier it would be if you could just turn yourself into a fellow cat and talk to it that way. God is scary to us because we're ignorant; so God sent a man to relay the message, to offer a lifeline to the lost children.

That's where Christians think we are now, in that position to take the line, to bridge that gap and, on a personal level, end the war with God. It's like God offering the rebel fighters a chance to switch sides before the invasion.

If you don't take it, if you waiver or waffle or hesitate, you risk being on the wrong side when everything comes to a head. And whether you acknowledge it or not, the choice is yours.
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That's a great piece of writing - but for me it misses the key point that in most religions the Evil may be stronger or weaker, but it is independent.

In Christianity there is one being running the whole war. One who is supposed to have acted with malice and aforethought when he created the conditions / individuals that started, escalated and perpetuated the War.

If we found out today that the Bush administration had been funding the Insurgents in Iraq, because they believed that the process of winnowing from all the violence and hate was a good thing in the long run, then we'd toss them out of office. Such behaviour would be beyond the pale - especially if that administration intended to NEVER redeem the agents that it had specifically created in order to fight both sides of that war.

The tract above is consistent with a Christian world view, but it is not consistent with Christian dogma.
 
That only underlines my point that there's no defense to you're being right.

You consider yourself right because you believe it is so.

That doesn't mean you ARE right.

That's an easy out because it nullifies every theistic position.
 
Eon said:
If we found out today that the Bush administration...
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I do not believe you can compare the two. I do not pretend to understand it all, but I feel that things were set in the order that they were, because they had to be thus for us to have free will. The thoughts that you give on God are inconsistent with the Bible and what it discloses of His character.
 
Dark Virtue said:
That only underlines my point that there's no defense to you're being right.
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I felt that it was an excellent defense! Alas, my greatest defense is the Holy Word of God and you dismiss that also.
 
Marcylene said:
I do not believe you can compare the two. I do not pretend to understand it all, but I feel that things were set in the order that they were, because they had to be thus for us to have free will. The thoughts that you give on God are inconsistent with the Bible and what it discloses of His character.
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I'm glad you don't pretend to understand all, but starting a war for personal gain whilst supposedly being in a position to manipulate both sides is actually a recurring theme in God's behaviour throughout the Old Testament.

And in history we have the crusades...
 
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