What is a True Christian

[Arkanjel]

I don't think ANYONE on this board has any idea how a 27AD Jewish activist and preacher lived - let alone living like him.

Anyone know what food they ate? What the local laws were? How occupation by the Romans was compared to the rule of their own kings? What were the roads made of? The clothes? The shoes? The money? The geography? The philosophy? What sports did they play? What plants filled the fields and parks? What topics of conversation filled the forum?

I can give you a good idea about this Eon. A 27AD believer would have been almost indistinguishable from a Jew. And he would have been called a rabbi, just as Jesus was a rabbi. Those who followed Jesus were his disciples and did everything he did. They slept at His feet and they ate the same foods he ate. NO PORK! NO CRUSTAEANS! NO RABBITS! And a few other animals are considered unclean as well. Jesus followed the laws set forth by God in the Torah. He wore a Tallit. He spoke Hebrew. He observed all the feasts set forth by God in the Torah.

IMHO a true christian is a disciple of Yeshua, who tries to live his or her life as Yeshua lived His life.

 

[Levite]

Good post Levite. Your definition sounds similar to one I proposed:

From religioustolerance.org

Unfortunately, most of the Christian members on this board disagreed with that definition and will most probably disagree with yours.

DV my definition of a true Christian is with Christ. Religions denominations and traditions alone will not save anyone nor has it helped anyone. But a "true" relationship with Christ will.

 

[Marcylene]

"Don't all those denominations, however weird or however much you dislike them, don't they all accept Christ and their savior, thus making them Christian under your definition?

That is just it, while religions run the gamut of believing that Jesus was a good person that walked the earth, to making Him up with things that are not Scriptural, not every religion believes that it is Jesus and Him alone that was the Propitiation for our sins. Levite has it right...on Jesus and Him alone.

 

[Levite]

there are two kinds of Christians in this world. Sadly the most common is the "fake" Christian (sorry if this is too blunt but this is reality) and the "real" Christian. The fake is what you see commonly today those you can talk the walk but not walk it so to speak. These people are most commonly known as "hypocrites" and im sorry to say this but these "fakes" give Christians a bad name (again im sorry if im too blunt this is again reality). The real christian is one who is one with God. A real christian will make mistakes sometimes but will be so close to God that he/she will realize the mistakes. A real Christian has to give his entire life to Christ. Now let me emphasize on that no one is perfect.PERIOD. I dont care if you where born in some uninhabited island and was raised by local wolves. No one is perfect. PERIOD. Someone who is one with Christ will make mistakes and will fall but, they will get back off the ground and keep fighting because a true Christian will never be defeated and will always have victory though Christ. PERIOD.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I can give you a good idea about this Eon. A 27AD believer would have been almost indistinguishable from a Jew. And he would have been called a rabbi, just as Jesus was a rabbi. Those who followed Jesus were his disciples and did everything he did. They slept at His feet and they ate the same foods he ate. NO PORK! NO CRUSTAEANS! NO RABBITS! And a few other animals are considered unclean as well. Jesus followed the laws set forth by God in the Torah. He wore a Tallit. He spoke Hebrew. He observed all the feasts set forth by God in the Torah.

IMHO a true christian is a disciple of Yeshua, who tries to live his or her life as Yeshua lived His life.

Arkanjel brings up a good point. Why don't the majority of Christians actually FOLLOW Christ's examples? Why don't they celebrate the holy days of the OT just as Christ did? You think Christ ate unclean foods? Why do you?

 

[Marcylene]

Arkanjel brings up a good point. Why don't the majority of Christians actually FOLLOW Christ's examples? Why don't they celebrate the holy days of the OT just as Christ did? You think Christ ate unclean foods? Why do you?

I think for some of the Holy Days, take Passover for example, that was a sign of Christ coming. I love the picture of the Cross when they were told to strike the doorposts, the dripping blood would form a cross. The Jews do not believe that He has been here, therefore, they do still celebrate. The death angel will "pass over" and those covered by the blood will be spared. They were to eat foods that represented Christ's Crucifixion, bitter herbs is one I remember. They were also told to eat hurriedly while being dressed and ready to go!!! Now that, we should celebrate!
Jesus ate with Publicans and sinners, but I really don't imagine He ate unclean things. He did however, fulfill the law which I am guessing no longer making need of some of their celebrations.
www.crosswalk.com
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. I Timothy 4
Jewish Holy Days:
http://www.bible-truth.org/FAQ-Bible.html#B021
http://bible-truth.org/Feasts-Tabernacles.html
http://bible-truth.org/Feasts-Firstfruit.html
http://bible-truth.org/Feasts-UnleavenBread.html
http://bible-truth.org/Feasts-Passover.html

 

[Dark Virtue]

DV my definition of a true Christian is with Christ. Religions denominations and traditions alone will not save anyone nor has it helped anyone. But a "true" relationship with Christ will.

That's what I said!

 

[Dark Virtue]

I think for some of the Holy Days, take Passover for example, that was a sign of Christ coming. I love the picture of the Cross when they were told to strike the doorposts, the dripping blood would form a cross. The Jews do not believe that He has been here, therefore, they do still celebrate. The death angel will "pass over" and those covered by the blood will be spared. They were to eat foods that represented Christ's Crucifixion, bitter herbs is one I remember. They were also told to eat hurriedly while being dressed and ready to go!!! Now that, we should celebrate!
Jesus ate with Publicans and sinners, but I really don't imagine He ate unclean things. He did however, fulfill the law which I am guessing no longer making need of some of their celebrations.
www.crosswalk.com
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. I Timothy 4
Jewish Holy Days:
http://www.bible-truth.org/FAQ-Bible.html#B021
http://bible-truth.org/Feasts-Tabernacles.html
http://bible-truth.org/Feasts-Firstfruit.html
http://bible-truth.org/Feasts-UnleavenBread.html
http://bible-truth.org/Feasts-Passover.html

Marcy, you are as graceful and nimble as a ballerina when it comes to avoiding the topic

Jesus kept the Sabbath and he kept the holy days set forth by God.

Why don't the majority of Christians follow Christ's example and do the same?

(Was that put plainly enough for you?)

 

[Azzie]

I think the reason for Christians not following Jewish traditions had to do with Jesus' lectures to the Pharisees all throughout the gospels, such as the part when Jesus healed (worked) on the Sabbath and was accused by the Pharisees. God is Lord of the Sabbath; His day, His rules.

Just a thought, but perhaps God ordered the Israelites to follow these traditions not only for health reasons, but also specifically for Jesus to use the traditions to point out legalism. Once the point was made by Jesus in person, the strict following of the law had completed its main purpose and was no longer a necessity.

 

[Marcylene]

(Was that put plainly enough for you?)

grrr you Just read, won't you?

He did however, fulfill the law which I am guessing no longer making need of some of their celebrations.

Therefore, the question would more aptly be, "IS THAT PLAIN ENOUGH FOR YOU, DV, SIR?"
More simply, the celebrations are no longer in effect for us, because Christ fulfilled those celebrations symbolism.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17

He is the Passover, the Firstfruit, the Unleavened Bread, ect.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I think the reason for Christians not following Jewish traditions had to do with Jesus' lectures to the Pharisees all throughout the gospels, such as the part when Jesus healed (worked) on the Sabbath and was accused by the Pharisees. God is Lord of the Sabbath; His day, His rules.

Just a thought, but perhaps God ordered the Israelites to follow these traditions not only for health reasons, but also specifically for Jesus to use the traditions to point out legalism. Once the point was made by Jesus in person, the strict following of the law had completed its main purpose and was no longer a necessity.

That would make sense except for the fact that Jesus actually KEPT the Sabbath and the Holy Days.

 

[Dark Virtue]

grrr you Just read, won't you?
Therefore, the question would more aptly be, "IS THAT PLAIN ENOUGH FOR YOU, DV, SIR?"
More simply, the celebrations are no longer in effect for us, because Christ fulfilled those celebrations symbolism.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17

He is the Passover, the Firstfruit, the Unleavened Bread, ect.

Sorry, but that's NOT plain enough.

You said, "He did however, fulfill the law which I am guessing no longer making need of some of their celebrations."

Some? Which ones?

There's a huge diffrence between keeping the Holy Days to the letter of the law and following Christ's example and recognizing the symbollism of those days. I'm going to fight you on this issue, because when I was a Christian, I celebrated God's Holy Days, and I felt very strongly about it.

You say God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow when it suits you, but you turn a blind eye when it comes to issues such as this.

Personally, as a Christian, I'd much rather celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles than the Pagan laden holidays of Easter and Christmas. Note, that as a Christian, I did NOT celebrate Easter or Christmas.

 

[Azzie]

Hm...going along with my little theory, Jesus may have obeyed the traditions merely as a temporary method to be more accepted into society at the time for him to further emphasize the point of legalism.
It's like a brilliant military setup (kind of a dark analogy, but let's leave the military quality of it off for a bit) in which a spy joins the enemy faction then organizes a system in the enemy faction. Then, he would betray the enemy faction, bringing his own organized system with him, creating a group of traitors rather than having one single traitor in the enemy faction.
In the case of Jesus, the enemy was Satan, who was using legalism. The law itself was good, but God knew that Satan would make it into legalism, so he setup the plan for Jesus to follow the law and form a facton of "Christians" who were under this legalism, all for him to then tear legalism down...like a spy against Satan.
Both strategies were brilliant, but God's is perceived to be better.

As for God's changing of laws/rules, I like to think that God's character and quality does not change, but His MIND can change. That's why God SEEMS different as the ages go by. After all, Christians believe God is a conscious being; not just a law or force out there in the universe. He can choose different things at different times. Whether the intervention is good or not, Christians have faith that everything God does is "good," for God, in their minds, is the author of "goodness."

 

[Dark Virtue]

Hm...going along with my little theory, Jesus may have obeyed the traditions merely as a temporary method to be more accepted into society at the time for him to further emphasize the point of legalism.

Honestly, that doesn't make sense at all. However, I wouldn't mind seeing biblical support for your theory.

As for God's changing of laws/rules, I like to think that God's character and quality does not change, but His MIND can change. That's why God SEEMS different as the ages go by. After all, Christians believe God is a conscious being; not just a law or force out there in the universe. He can choose different things at different times. Whether the intervention is good or not, Christians have faith that everything God does is "good," for God, in their minds, is the author of "goodness."

Why would God have to change his mind if he were omniscient?

 

[Azzie]

I honestly don't really have any biblical support for my little theory; I'm basically just playing with potential possiblilites (notice the double uncertainty). Um, maybe if I said it like this: Jesus abided by humans at the time so he could relate to them better at the time. At the time, people followed Jewish rules. As a result, Jesus decided to follow it. His job would've been a bit more annoying if he was totally counterculture, wouldn't you think?
It's not like he COULDN'T, but he chose to do it in a way that would fit US better. (er, "us" as in humans.)

"Why would God have to change his mind if he were omniscient?"
Maybe using the words "change his mind" wasnt too great on my part. Maybe if I said His decisions change in quality of appearance, like sometimes it seems to follow one pattern (for example, pacifism when Jesus' disciples asked why God didnt just destroy the Samaritans) while sometimes it seems to not follow that pattern (as seen in the conquests of the book of Joshua).
The reason, I would guess, is because we, as humans, change. In order for God to relate and intervene with the changing humans as He sees best, He intervenes in different ways.
Take for example, Noah's flood. He let humans fiddle around with their new free will, and saw that they just mess things up. So, God gives them a drink. A number of years later, the Israelites went on a journey and needed a homeland that was filled with other people. So, God empowers them with military might so they could forge a home for themselves. Then, during Roman occupation, the Jews were bloodthirsty for Roman blood. So, God sends a pacifistic anti-violence Jesus. Now, we need a group of intellectuals to catch up with the information age. So, God is taking it easy on the miracles and raising up apologists and theologians.

Sure God COULD just overpower everything with an omniscient-almighty act of intervention, but that might defeat a purpose that God has in mind...what that is, I have no idea. But if God is God, He probably can see things as much larger a whole than any human...

 

[Dark Virtue]

Is it just me, or are your views as solid as jello?

I'm trying to chew on a steak and your arguments are squishing through my teeth.

 

[Azzie]

jello IS solid. It's just soft.

Well like i said, its just my little theory that i'm posting for "food for thought."
I'm not making any solid explanations here. I'm just giving some stuff to chew on.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Point taken!

 

[Marcylene]

You said, "He did however, fulfill the law which I am guessing no longer making need of some of their celebrations."
Some? Which ones?

Did you ever come to a point in study that you realize the more you know, the more there is to know? I must confess I know little about the celebrations. I would love to participate in each one and come to understand the very rich symbolism. The Fundamental Baptist do not celebrate, and I must say, while I am not sure why, on points that I don't know, I feel that I belong to a wonderful group of men and women who watch for our souls and have studied well on this topic. I know, now it is my turn. I have always simply assumed, (ouch, yea, I know what that says...) that Christ fulfilled the rich prophesies in those feasts and celebrations so we no longer follow them. The Jewish people come to mind, many are still watching for God to come and they do celebrate faithfully.

There's a huge difference between keeping the Holy Days to the letter of the law and following Christ's example and recognizing the symbolism of those days. I'm going to fight you on this issue, because when I was a Christian, I celebrated God's Holy Days, and I felt very strongly about it.

lol So I get a black eye on this one? Perhaps you can teach me about the Holy Days. Why did you, did you believe Jesus was The Only Way whereby we must be saved?
With all due respect, we can celebrate until Jesus return, keep the law to the uttermost, but if He does not have our heart, it means nothing! Ever seen that lovey dovey couple? They are the picture of true love...but at home, ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh my! What strife!!! I think sometimes celebrations can simply be an outward appearance.

You say God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow when it suits you, but you turn a blind eye when it comes to issues such as this.

I don't think that is a fair judgment of me on your part. As I said, my belief is that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies and symbolisms of those Holy Days.

Personally, as a Christian, I'd much rather celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles than the Pagan laden holidays of Easter and Christmas. Note, that as a Christian, I did NOT celebrate Easter or Christmas.

God saw your heart in doing that. I am sure He was pleased. Yet, somehow, through all that, you were turned away. It seems not necessarily a good thing. I hate the typed word at times, I do hope you won't take that as hateful or sarcastic, just inquisitive.

 

[Arkanjel]

Wow, lets all step back a second and take a breath. Its getting kinda heated in here. I have a great book that I would like to bring up that I think EVERYONE should read. Its called Restoration. Check the link its good stuff and will answer some questions you didnt know you had. To bring a little more light onto this subject Im going to quote some stuff from this book.


First lets start with what the Torah is and what it means in Hebrew.

Torah comes from a Hebrew root word that is used as an archery term meaning "to take aim, to shoot," such as shooting an arrow in order to hit a target. It is derived from the Hebrew verb yarah,"to cast, throw, shoot." The essence of this word then is "to hit the mark." The Torah is God's aim for us.

The opposite of torah is chata, which means "to miss the mark." Chata is the word translated as "sin" in our Bibles. Paul tells us that all have sinned and fallen short of the mark. Do you see the picture? The Torah is the target for which we aim our arrow. When our shot misses and falls short of the target, we have sinned. Sin is missing the mark of the Torah.

Torah is the mark for which we are to aim. It is God's standard of righteousness. Sin is our failure to hit that mark. And we all fail to hit the mark. "The law [Torah] of the Lord is perfect" (Psalm 19:7), but we are not. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) The Apostle John described it in no uncertain terms: "Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness [Torahlessness]; and sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4) Sin, properly defined is transgression of Torah. We all miss the target. We all sin.
Restoration pgs 29-30

Ahh enlightening? Well there is more.

There is a point at which the Torah aims. The bull's-eye of Torah, the careful aim of Torah (yarah) is the perfect Messiah. This is why Paul wrote in his epsitle to the Romans, "Messiah is the end of the law [Torah]." (Romans 10:4)

Unfortunately, traditional Christian interpretation misunderstood Paul's words to mean that Messiah is the cancellation of the Torah. The Greek of Romans 10:4 is best understood to mean that Messiah is the "goal" of the Torah. The Greek word telos which is translated as "end," is the same word we use in English words like telephone, television and telescope. Telos implies arrival at a goal. The sound of one's voice on the telephone arrives at the goal of the telephone on the other end. That reading fits the context of Romans 10:4 as well. Messiah is the destination at which the journey of Torah arrives.

Yet , there is an end for which the Torah reaches. Paul writes, "Messiah is the end of the Torah," and again in his epistle to the Galatians he writes,"The law [Torah] has become our tutor to lead us to Messiah." (Galatians 3:24) In this sense, Messiah is the goal of the Torah. Is Messiah to be understood as the ending of the Torah then? No. He is the end, but not the ending. He is the goal of the Torah, but not the termination of it. In fact, He Himself said,"Do not think that I came to abolish the law [Torah]." (Matthew 5:17)
Restoration pgs 30-31

Hopefully that will explain some things and clarify some others. We all tend to forget that these were Jews who wrote the Bible. They saw things quite differently than we do today. I find it amazing that I ended up reading that part of the book shortly after some of these issues came up. Coincedence? I dont believe in coincedence, only God's divine appointments in our lives. As for the fulfillment of the all the feasts, there are still some left to be fulfilled, and we just went through them. I dont have a list in front of me, but I will get it and post it here so I can explain what I mean, so no snap judgements on that part.