Us why we're here.

See, I agree with you - it IS contradictory and complex. For the central tome written by the God who is supposed to have invented language, you'd think the message would be a touch clearer, wouldn't you?

Eon
 
Contradictory? Maybe. I don't feel it. Translation loses a lot. Dad explained it to me this way: Our English today is not the English back then. The English of the 1400s is not the same of the Danes of Beowulf's time. The Hebrew today is most likely not the same as the Hebrew of Christ's time, and that not the same of Moses.
Complex? Definitely. Some things of the Bible we will never know, it is told. Jesus Christ spoke in parables, he said, so that we would not know what he meant. And he also said to Nicodemus, "How will you know heavenly things if you cannot understand earthly things?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mr_Eon @ Jan. 07 2003,2:51)]
Click to expand...
(Mr_Eon) It all comes down to the appropriateness of language. You see, when I'm writing a manual, I don't use alliteration or metaphorical language outside of colour text used for evocative purposes.

(Me) In other words, you think that God should have written His Word in the way you feel like it should be written. But who are you to question God?

Indeed, what contradiction does it raise to use figures of speech and still speak the truth? If I say, "My mother was driving me up the wall" in a biography, I'm telling the truth, even though I'm not being literal.

The simple fact is that when you use language, you use the conventions of the language. Part of those conventions are manifested in these difficulties you're experiencing. However, when we interpret the language according to the conventions of the language, as is appropriate with any case of language, the difficulties disappear. It seems that you just don't want to lose your argument for Biblical contradictions, so you're unwilling to treat language as language.
 
Not at all... I'm just saying that the Bible is not a masterwork of clear communication. In fact most cults can compile clearer and more compelling pamphlets detailing THEIR beliefs.

I know what you're saying - frankly it would be impossible for any manmade work to survive the eons (pardon me, no pun intended), translated through various languages and still have its meaning intact and clear.

But the bible isn't supposed to be man made, is it? That's my point.
 
It is man made. Men wrote it, God inspired it. Is this so hard? Take the Greeks! The Muses! Men make the sculptures, the Muse gives them inspiration.
What's so hard about this?
And since we're dealing with this: this is Almighty God we're talking about. The Omnipotent. I think that if he wished to he could take the entirety of Scriptures and the New Testament and hide it away in heaven for just such an occasion as when he needs to distribute it to the world and watch with shock as we fight over it.
 
Yes it's hard. It's hard because you guys keep shifting the goal posts. On the one hand you accept that it has been written by humankind, but inspired by a God. On the other you insist that it is the literal and true word of that God.

Eon
 
Why is it so hard to understand that God inspired man to write His Word? It's not man-made;it's written by man.God gave His Word to men who opened their hearts and lives to His call.

Alien2385
 
Eon, I do not believe the Bible is completely literal. Noah said, "Cursed be Canaan!", who was the son of Ham, and the Hamites are believed to be Africans. Because of that, several Christians use that as a ledge for saying it's okay for black enslavement because they were cursed by Noah from the start. So do I think that was literal? No, because GOD FREAKING SAID "LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF!"
I'll tell you what both my hands say Eon: God inspired man to write it. Man did not write it minus God, and man did not inspire God to say it. Okay?
It is the true word of God, but you wanna know something? The first half of the Bible is this: history, genealogy, advice, songs, prophecied and accounts. The second half is all about the love of God, the acts of God and the apostles, more advice on how to live for God, and a revelation of the end times. That my friend is the Bible in a nutshell.
Is there anything more unclear of that? It is the true Word of God, but it is not always literal: it is analogical and literal. It's a mixture. When God said I made the world in six days and on the seventh rested, it is not a parable, it is not an analogy: THAT IS LITERAL! When God said Noah had three sons who had wives, do you see an analogy? "Oh, wait, three sons to make life after Noah, three days to resurrect, duh! God was setting up from the beginning Jesus's resurrection." No! Idiots think that way, idiots who twist the Bible or don't understand it and still twist it. I don't support them and I hate it when they mix up everyone's minds that is trying to understand!
 
If it was inspired by God and written by man then there will be mistakes. The Inquisition was inspired by God and carried out by man.

I have to ask you - why do you think that God is supposed to have gone to such lengths to keep the bible pure, and yet not given a d4mn about the rest of the church or its literature? Talk to Jack Chick - he'll tell you that his poisonous crap is inspired by God and written by man.

Eon
 
Okay. Honestly, Eon. Tell me do you think the God, the true God of the Christians, would inspire such a murderous scheme as the Inquisition? No. Man in his diabolical naivety and sick twistedness used God as the excuse to murder those who did not believe in their religion.
God does not say: "And to those who don't believe in me, place them in the Pit and the Pendulum torture chamber. Burn them alive as heretics. Toss them to the dogs, drown them, behead them, gore them." God did not send the Israelites out on conquering raids whenever he felt like it. They brought down Jericho because the Jerichoans were sinful men who were causing trouble to the Israelites. God never wanted his peopel to live with sinful tribes and peoples: he usually punished his people for it, or let them suffer for their choices, as with Solomon and his freaky 700 wives and 300 concubines.
I will tell you something Eon: God gives a #### about us. In fact, this will sound stupid, he gave such a ####, he died to end the ####ation we brought on ourselves with our original severance from our side-by-side relationship with God!
The true Christian has this little thing called discernment. Books by beeped up authors as Jack Chick are seen by the discerning believer as false! I would not sit down and read Siddhartha Gautama's biography thinking it was about a great early Christian pioneer. That dude's Buddha btw.
I wouldn't watch a Hugh Hefner special enunciating his firm belief in the resurrected Christ. BECAUSE THAT'S BULLCRAP!
The Bible, I will tell you right now, is not perfect in translation today. I don't care what the zealots say, what the rabid announcers of doom proclaim. It is not completely preserved in translation. Some parts of verses may be missing, because, as I stated elsewhere, languages change. English of today is not the English of the 1400s. English of the 1400s is not the same as the days of Beowulf. The Hebrew of now is not the Hebrew of the times of Christ, and that Hebrew is not the Hebrew of Moses. Greek now is not the Greek of the times of Paul!
Languages change, as do translations. I prefer the KJV over all forms as of now. I find it superior to all other translations.
Now, I do not think that the quotes of Christ are the quotes he actually stated. But the meaning, the message, is true and understandable. I can see that when he says, "Love thy neighbor as thyself", that's what he meant. I don't think he actually said, "Love your next-door neighbor as yourself or else." I think he said "Love your neighbor as yourself." That's the message of it. It doens't matter if he said, "Verily, verily, I do say unto thee, love thy neighbor as you would love thyself."
God did not say, "Worship Billy Graham as you would worship me" or "Give money to Kenneth Copeland, because his ministry REALLY needs it, and it's the same as giving to Me." For those who know who Kenneth Copeland is, you'll know he does not need donations.
God did not say, "Read all books that are said to be written in my name and take it to heart that since the man says it's from me, it is from me."
God himself said it was from him in the Bible. The Word of God is his Spirit, as well, if you don't know that. The Word is God. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Several times, the Holy Spirit is referred to as the Word.
God inspired his Word, the Scriptures of God. And the New Testament consists completely of letters and four documents written by different people. Four separate accounts that all say the same thing! And all the letters speak in some way of God, either his love, his mercy, his grace, his virtues, his Son, the resurrection, the coming of false prophets, as Jack Chick, the apostasy of the Church, and such things. There is nothing that says: BOW BEFORE PAUL, WHO WAS AND IS AND IS TO COME!
Paul, in fact, says for us not to quibble of who is the true teacher. He says don't say, "I follow Billy Graham" or "I follow Ultima Avatar" or "I follow Kenny Copeland". Those aren't important: "I follow Christ" is what you should say. If one man pronounces Christ out for you, give him props. Don't place yourselves in a cult devoted to him.
The Word is inspired by God, and written by man. The Call of Cthulhu is inspired by something not of God, and written by HP Lovecraft. The Fall of the House of Usher was not inspired by God but written by Edgar Allan Poe. No way am I going to say, "Obviously these men are of God, due to their dark, occultic, and sometimes evil tales. What great Christian leaders!"
Discernment is part of the Christian. If you're gullible and easily swayed you're not such a firm Christian are you? "New Age Transcendalism! Of course this must be from God! God's going to give us a new age when he returns, and it basically states that as you die you get closer to God!"
No. Be discernible.
This portion of the message is dedicated to all idiots of any country who may read this: Get a brain and think you morons. Look before you leap into something you know nil about.
God is not a greedy God, or a God who hates so bad he would tell his own people to break his commandments to keep another. No. If you love God, you will keep his commandments, and you won't ever have to sin against him again! You don't have to sin! Love God with all your heart and soul and mind! His Word provides all the guidelines we need to live the perfect life: "Whosoever believeith in Him (Jesus Christ) shall not perish, but have everlasting life", "Love thy neighbor as thyself", and "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind."
Those three are all you need Eon. When people say, "Give me money for God" or "Join this Church or you'll never get to Heaven" or (and there is a church that says this) "Tattoes and piercings are the onyl way to Heaven" or "Love yourself and no others, because eventually you shall be a God."
Any dogma or doctrine that speaks anything against God is NOT OF FREAKING GOD!
Eon, how could this be so difficult to understand? You are a knowledgeable man, indeed. Perhaps not wise, but knowledgeable. Do you honestly believe the God we profess, the God the Bible supports, the God that we the Christians believe created us, watched us turn away, and then died and resurrected for us, would be evil, would be a terrible, malicious deity that would betray us to ourselves, a deity that wouldn't care about, a deity that would lie to us, a deity that would not care about us? If you do, my friend, you are sadly mistaken. God has nothing but eternal love for us: he's creating a home for us, still!
If man decides to screw God and turn away from him, that is man's priority. I myself will follow God to death. I will lose my head for God. Words, words, you say. No proof! I can't walk the walk, surely, can I, as of now? All I do is come online and write to a bunch of old people who need some motivation. But hey, if Christ takes us home and leave the unbelievers behind for the Antichrist's plucking, I'm gone and I'll never post again. Or if he allows the Antichrist to arise and take those whom he chooses, and remains on high to watch those Christians that shall fall away from the faith and join the evil one, and I am brought before to be executed for my beliefs, then I shall take it bravely and will not falter for my life. I am assured in death, as you are with your faith, that this life holds nothing for me more than just temporality. We have a lot of similarities, you know. You believe that death will take us all and you shall go to your ancestors. I believe death shall take us all and I shall go to my God, or I shall burn. Well, I know I won't burn, but that's just the two ends for every person.
The Bible is the Word of God and God, I feel, is no longer as present as he once was. He still inspires, but in no degree as before. MEn still write, and some uninspired by the power of God, but they still wirte, for God, or not for God. You can tell when who is writing for what. You can.
 
If anybody tries to imprison Christian's for their beliefs, they'll have this Heathen to reckon with.

Eon
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]it's illegal to be Christian in China...you're slightly out numbered
Click to expand...
Thats 100% wrong. I'm sorry but it's a totally ignorant statement. That may have been true during the 50's and the Maoist cultural revolution but it is absolutely not true now.
 
The key here is unregistered. In a place with a strict totalitarian government like that, you cant do anything without being having the government know about it and be involved in it. It's a large part of communism as well. It's not because they are Christian that they are getting imprisoned, its because they were doing it in secret. If they had been doing anything else (running a business, a clinic, a charity, a buddhist temple, etc...) you can bet they would have the same treatment. I'm not saying its right but come on, you're calling them martyrs?
 
....uh me, Eon? Me a heathen?
Yeh, yeh. Mustard I have a challenge for you: Go to China and announce in the streets that you are a Christian and for people to come and hear you preach if they want to.
Once you return, if you ever do, tell us the response to your beliefs about non-persecution.
Persecution of the Christian faith continues today, but of course, it's not broadcast to the world: "Hey America, we're killing your preachers! Come look!"
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Ultima Avatar @ Jan. 22 2003,3:34)]....uh me, Eon? Me a heathen?
Yeh, yeh. Mustard I have a challenge for you: Go to China and announce in the streets that you are a Christian and for people to come and hear you preach if they want to.
Once you return, if you ever do, tell us the response to your beliefs about non-persecution.
Persecution of the Christian faith continues today, but of course, it's not broadcast to the world: "Hey America, we're killing your preachers! Come look!"
Click to expand...
The heathen Eon is talking about is himself.

Also, the only reason Christians suffer persecution in other nations is because we go there and convert the masses. If you try to spread your religion in a nation over-run with Islamic extremists you will be taken down, it doesn't matter if you are Christian, Atheist, or some crazy cult that popped up when John Doe saw a vision.
Alot of extremists don't like it when some guy comes preaching a different religion.

I just don't understand all of these Christians who think everybody in the world is out to kill them.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Go to China and announce in the streets that you are a Christian and for people to come and hear you preach if they want to.
Click to expand...
The point here is that they object to preaching in the streets without their permission period. It's not an issue WHAT you are preaching (unless its something in support of the government anyway), they heavily regulate what can be said over there, you cant start preaching ANY religion or any political philosiphy either. They aren't singling out Christians, not in that country anyway. I could go and let everyone know that I'm a Christian (if I were) and nothing would happen to me for that being true, if I started preaching or causing a stir then sure I would be imprisoned.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top