Us why we're here.

Actually, I rather thought that Atheism claimed that the presence or absence of Gods should be treated in the same light as any other fact - something to be empirically proven as opposed to taken for granted?

Perhaps you're getting too hung up on a point of dogma? I can see why, if you've been inhaling those articles that a generous man might call scholarly and a rather more dispassionate observer might term arcane or impenetrable. Really - you might have the desire and the time to wade into the inner workings of your religion, but I have a life and religion of my own, and many calls on my time. And I'm not just saying that - I did wade through one of them.
 
One question.

Could Jesus microwave a bueritto so hot that he himself could not eat it??
 
Two points--
1) According to my very philosophical science teacher (he teaches philosophy, therefore I can say this
tounge.gif
hehe), the odds of our universe-even just our solar system-acquiring the ability to support life are so miniscule that even scientists are calling it a miracle. Now, I may be wrong, but last I checked, there was a certain God that performed miracles.......
and 2) On the topic of Atheism-I personally do not believe that one could be a "true" Atheist. The reason being, if you are an Atheist you are saying that you believe there is no God. Therefore, you acknowledge the existence of something that you do not believe in. So by your rejection of the existence of God, are you not acknowledging that He exists?
Just a thought....
 
Thats all fine and good but whats mr philosophy teachers view on buerittos??
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dionysus @ Dec. 12 2002,10:20)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Yeah science can't recreate those miracles.  The bible is historically accurate and has many of it's references proven in archeology.  Written by man, yes, but inspired by God.  it has many checks and balances to keep it accurate.

Science and bible do not get along.  For starters, according to the Bible, the earth is thousands of years old, not millions.  Also if you choose to believe science and that you're related to ameobas be my guest.  However if you die and realize there's an afterlife you'll be shocked.  What's there to lose in believing in a creator?  dignity?
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Ha and the writers of the bible also thought the world was flat.  Do you sill believe that?  Probably.  Have you killed any homosexuals lately?  Have you told your mom to bring you food and to bring it now?  I think not.  Times have changed.  Science is accurate.  There's a lot to lose in believing in a creator, time.  I'd rather spend my life learning about a lot of thing rather than stick to a story book.  It's a relic and therefore should be treated as one.  It's inconsistent and irrational.  I lead a great life with out your bible.  I have a great wife, wonderful family, great job, all with out a single prayer or belief in your god or your jesus.
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The Bible does not refer to the Earth as flat. True Christians (believers) have always known the Earth to be round.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (dwgpreach @ Dec. 19 2002,9:50)]The Bible does not refer to the Earth as flat. True Christians (believers) have always known the Earth to be round.
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I believe Christians thought the earth was flat.
 
What about all that stuff about Foundations, Corners and Pillars of the Earth? And that Mountain top so high that you could see all the Nations of the Earth?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Nspire @ Dec. 19 2002,11:42)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (dwgpreach @ Dec. 19 2002,9:50)]The Bible does not refer to the Earth as flat. True Christians (believers) have always known the Earth to be round.
Click to expand...
I believe Christians thought the earth was round also.
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Oops, I ment to say flat.
tounge.gif
 
Heres something to think about....

Asylem seekers
Do you think its right for them to stay in our country and say its such a bad country and theirs is great, well why dont they go back instead of taking up space in our country.

Should we:
1: let them stay
2: kill them
3: put them all on a ship and push them off into the sea and let them go where the waves take them
4: just send them back to france on trucks and see what they do with them.
 
(Mr_Eon) Actually, I rather thought that Atheism claimed that the presence or absence of Gods should be treated in the same light as any other fact - something to be empirically proven as opposed to taken for granted?

(Me) It is a common atheistic assumption that all facts must be proven empirically to be accepted (or meaningful, in some cases).  This is obviously absurd, of course, as that statement itself (that all facts must be proven empirically) cannot be proven empirically.  Therefore, by their own standard, their standard cannot be true/meaningful.

More than that, however, the atheist makes a claim about the ANSWER to that question.  He does commonly hold that accepting the existence of any deity requires justification.  Of course, so does the Christian!  Yet they have different answers -- the atheist (from "a" - no, and "theist" - god) says that no deity exists.  The Christian, on the other hand, holds that the Triune God of Biblical Christianity exists.


(Mr_Eon) Perhaps you're getting too hung up on a point of dogma? I can see why, if you've been inhaling those articles that a generous man might call scholarly and a rather more dispassionate observer might term arcane or impenetrable. Really - you might have the desire and the time to wade into the inner workings of your religion, but I have a life and religion of my own, and many calls on my time. And I'm not just saying that - I did wade through one of them.

(Me) Just out of curiosity -- which one?  Perhaps listening to the Great Debate might prove more palatable.  It is lengthy (~2 hrs) but far more satisfying and stimulating than sitting in front of a television.  My references to the resources were intended for my brothers in Christ, so that they can be better equipped to fulfill their God-given duty to be ever-ready in defending the faith.

I'm not sure where your argument is.  I have cogently argued that the Triune God of Biblical Christianity exists.  Where is your response?  Basically, the only response I've seen is "I believe what I want to believe, and I'll keep on doing what I want to do because I want to do it."  Yet how are your own desires relevant to the truth or falsity of the claims I've made?

Also, consider the implications of the arguments I've made in light of your view.  You've said that you're just going to go on doing whatever it is that you want to do.  Yet WHY should you do that?  Why is that right?  Why are _your_ beliefs and _your_ desires infallible?  Essentially, then, you've set yourself up to be God.  Consider the case that I am right, and the Triune God of Biblical Christianity exists.  If I am right, you are committing evil and need to repent.  You need to look to Jesus the Christ for your salvation from this evil.  Considering that I've powerfully argued my case, with little to no response, we have good reason to accept my asserted conclusions.  Thus, you are in desperate need of the salvation, regeneration, resurrection of Christ.  Turn to Him for your salvation.  You are evil, but Christ died to save those that are evil.

Soli Deo Gloria
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Tonytiger @ Dec. 19 2002,9:06)]
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(TonyTiger) One question.

Could Jesus microwave a bueritto so hot that he himself could not eat it??

(Me) Answer me this question: can square circles fly?

Your answer to that question is the same as the answer to the question you've posed to me.

Soli Deo Gloria
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mr_Eon @ Dec. 19 2002,1:48)]
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(Mr_Eon) What about all that stuff about Foundations, Corners and Pillars of the Earth? And that Mountain top so high that you could see all the Nations of the Earth?

(Me) What about it? The very same language is used by writers today, and yet none of us accuse them of believing that the Earth is flat or the relative center of the solar system. When your mother says that the sun rises and sets, do you believe she affirms geocentrism, or do you believe she is using language conventions to express a meaning beyond a hermeneutic failing to account for contextuality? When a television commerical's announcer says that a store's sales will shake the very foundations of the Earth, do you think that he believes in a flat Earth, or do you think he's using language to get a point across?

Sola Scriptura
 
I haven't read the entire topic, but what I'm not sure of is this: In 2 Timothy, chapter 2 I think, Paul says not to listen to two men who teach that we are living in the resurrection.
Before reading this passage, I myself wondered at that. If the angels, those seemingly perfect, mighty beings, the first creations, could sin against the Creator, then why could not we, the perfect transfigurations in Heaven, sin again? Why could we not fall once more, and cause God to create another world, another race in HIs image that could worship him? Why couldn't we be that race, or a third, or fourth?
I don't know.
Why are we here? Just to worship God? Just to glorify Him in our lives? Is that it? To experience mortal emotions before passing through trials and tribulations to either fail to or attain a rebirth into a different form at the end? Is that it? To reign eternally over a perfect new Heaven and Earth?
My head hurts now...
 
None of us have accused modern writers of being the Omnipotent and Omniscient creators of the world whose every single word is completely accurate and divinely inspired either.

When an advertising executive tells me that sales will shake the foundations of the earth No, I'm not surprised - but then when a Marketing Exec tells me there's a Y in the name of tomorrow's day, I check a calender and when a Lawyer shakes my hand I count my fingers just to make sure.


Eon
 
.....what?
Um. Okay. That's because the modern writers of today aren't completely accurate, nor do I believe they have divine inspiration. I mentioned this elsewhere: I doubt highly God's speaking to us on the personal basis as before. Which is why the Holy Spirit is with us.
I don't think I'm going to Stephen King's house to make sure he got the letter write on one page of his book, and if he missed a comma, I'm not going to call Studying the End Times about him.
I definitely don't accuse authors of being divinely inspired or being allpowerful and allknowing. I also don't accuse Construction Worker Bob about those either, if he puts all his nails in place correctly on the studs.
 
I never said you claimed they did, Ultima. However, Mr. Fe said that a little alliteration and metaphor was just fine in the bible, because these were tricks that modern writers use too.

As YOU point out, however, Modern Writers aren't supposed to be penning an utterly accuracte account of the history of our entire world.

Eon
 
Tis true. One because the books they write usually mention God in a breath or two, or are apologetics of God (rare and not very good nowadays. CS Lewis was the best), or are fiction novels totally unrelated to God at all.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mr_Eon @ Jan. 04 2003,10:06)]
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(Mr_Eon) None of us have accused modern writers of being the Omnipotent and Omniscient creators of the world whose every single word is completely accurate and divinely inspired either.

When an advertising executive tells me that sales will shake the foundations of the earth No, I'm not surprised - but then when a Marketing Exec tells me there's a Y in the name of tomorrow's day, I check a calender and when a Lawyer shakes my hand I count my fingers just to make sure.

(Me) I don't see where you're argument is. Are you saying that when language is used by modern folk, we should interpret it as such, but when one says that God has spoken, we throw any sense of language out the window?


(Mr_Eon) I never said you claimed they did, Ultima. However, Mr. Fe said that a little alliteration and metaphor was just fine in the bible, because these were tricks that modern writers use too.

(Me) Rather, it is because they are language conventions. When one uses language, one uses its conventions. Thus, it is no strange thing to say that, when the Bible uses language, it uses language conventions. This is simply an inherent characteristic of language itself.


(Mr_Eon) As YOU point out, however, Modern Writers aren't supposed to be penning an utterly accuracte account of the history of our entire world.

(Me) It is utterly accurate, and it does describe the entire history of the world in broad strokes (though obviously skipping most of the details). Yet how is this relevant?


Soli Deo Gloria
John Roberson
mustbenothing@hotmail.com
 
It all comes down to the appropriateness of language. You see, when I'm writing a manual, I don't use alliteration or metaphorical language outside of colour text used for evocative purposes.

Eon
 
Hmm. How can I best put it?
AH! The Bible is an enigma. It is not to be fully understood. There are places in the Bible that we will never understand. For instance, family reading yesterday. John 1-3.
Jesus talks to Nicodemus and says that no one has ever ascended to teh Kingdom of Heaven but the Son of God who came down from it. God has come to Earth often, to Abraham, to Adam and Eve, to witness the construction of Babel and cause the people to babble (hence the term). However, Jesus died, went to hell, and conquered Death and Hades. Explained to me was that before Jesus Christ's, all were under the grip of Satan, wandering the Earth as ghosts, or perhaps waiting in Sheol for redemption. When Jesus Christ came down, it is said that he took the keys to Death and Hades, and led the captives away. Now I don't know where that passage is found (someone please give it to me), but what confuses me is this: if Jesus had to die before any could ascend to heaven or go to Hell's Judgment Flames, then how come Jesus said what many think to be a true story, the one of LAzarus the Beggar and the Rich Dude. Lazarus dies, angels take him to Heaven. Rich dude dies, demons take him to hell. Now this was before Jesus died when he related this tale. How could heaven/hell exist if it took Jesus Christ to die and resurrect from the grave to even unlock those two places to others? Argh!
 
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