Time to focus

[Dradow(MrFuzzy)]

Im not really sure what you want done Asheriah...I havent seen alot of goofing off during a serious time..Anyone who has raided with me in ulduar knows i goof off alot, but im still serious during a boss fight... a 25naxx and a 25ulduar or even a 10 man Ulduar..Is alot different..It demands alot from all your tanks/healers/and dps. Whereas 25 naxx..It doesnt really demand a huge amount of effort to do.

 

[Asheriah]

Now someone is getting it

 

[Cassadine]

I'm not sure it can ever happen Ash. I have been in many MMOs and many successful hard core raiding groups. All of the successful ones were successful due to things that would be completely unhealthy for a Christian guild to have. Success was almost always due to raid leaders that played WAY too much for a Christian (with a balanced life) to be playing. Raiders that played WAY to much. Raid leaders that called people out in front of their peers allowing humiliation to make people see their weakness (this works fantastic except in a Christian guild) Raid leaders that demand time commitments and have severe punishments for those who cant abide. (another bad one for a casual guild)

What exactly is playing too much? First, the amount of play time is all subject to opinion. Talking about playing MMO's. I've played many MMO's starting with EQ. I have been in a few Christian guilds that had the people that wanted to raid and progress. We would raid twice a week and get to the end content. All because of those players that were dedicated to seeing end content. They weren't hardcore raiding guilds. They just had people that wanted to progress. They had ranks like our veteran/raider status that they earned. That also usually included them helping raid lesser dungeons on an off night sometimes to help with gearing up newer guildies which in turn helps them progress farther in the long run anyways.
On the point of calling people out in raids, that definitely isn't necessary unless it's something that keeps wiping the raid and causing everyone to waste thier time. Then and only then, that should happen after the raid leader/assistants mention it in tells to that player or better yet the Class Leaders let them know what they are doing wrong so they can correct it before it comes to that point. That is a simple way to correct the problems with no humiliation and help keep others from getting discouraged. People reading the strats on a dungeon ahead of time also will help with knowing what to do. How is it NOT CHRISTIAN to want to succeed and do your best at something? Whether it's a computer game, a sport, education in school or even work? Isn't it sad to say and believe that being a Christian in a Christian guild means you can't succeed in raiding like a non Christian guild or anything else in life? That makes no sense. I believe I can succeed at anything in life through GOD! No matter what the subject is.

It is VERY VERY difficult to make a Christian Guild and Successful Raiding guild... In some big name guilds I played with in the beginning that were raiding guilds, you pretty much have to be jerks to each other to get anything done, and you end up treating people like crap... In a Christian Guild, where we treat everyone with Love, and help out ALL guildies, becoming hardcore raiders just doesn't work... Esspecially when there is always going to be new raiders, and you have to help them in Nax and what not...a Christian guild is about Fellowship and helping others...not yourself... If you are looking to raid hardcore, a Christian guild is NOT where to do it...

Again, my post above addresses this. This is your opinion but you are WRONG. You can be in a Christian guild and be successful in raiding without being hardcore. You don't have to be jerks. You can treat people with respect. Your not helping someone by not letting them know what they' re doing wrong. Just do it respectfully through tells and the Raid leaders or class leads. This is done with people throughout their lives. Your parents teach/correct you when you do something wrong growing up. Your school teaches/corrects you when you do stuff wrong. Work teaches/corrects you when you do things wrong. The bible teaches/corrects you when you do things wrong.
The point of helping out others. People that progress are helping out everyone in the guild by getting the better gear to help be successful to get gear for lesser geared people.

On a side note, not to be rude, but if your not in the guild or playing and raiding with us along with going through the issues to understand them, why are you responding in our forums? I've been in this guild forever along with raiding with them and I don't believe I even know you.

Cassadine/Refuge

 

[XionTawa]

This is your opinion but you are WRONG.

On a side note, not to be rude, but if your not in the guild or playing and raiding with us along with going through the issues to understand them, why are you responding in our forums? I've been in this guild forever along with raiding with them and I don't believe I even know you.

Nice...just because you say "not trying to be rude" doesn't make what you say not rude...I played with redeemed for 2 years... The situations mentioned happen in many other guilds and I am pretty sure it was explained enough that I have a good idea what is going on...

 

[Dradow(MrFuzzy)]

I dont think saying we cant be a great raiding guild because we are christian guild is right... I think it starts on...knowing your class/role in the raid.. Getting with your class leaders to be a better player. I learn ALOT through naxx 10-25 man while progressing things that helped me alot even in ulduar. Obviously just gearing people through 25 naxx isnt enough, i mean you get the gear but there are some things you learn when you wipe on a boss alot while progressing. I think we can be a better raiding guild without having to "call people out" and it starts with just getting with your class leader. Asking them "hey why do i spec like this" or "what is your rotation" i mean simple things can go a long way..

 

[ewoksrule]

What exactly is playing too much? First, the amount of play time is all subject to opinion.

Agree, it is up to the Holy Spirit and each individual to determine what is a balanced life and play time. I think it is also the Guild Leaders responsibility to make sure this is encouraged and protected...not pressured to go against it.

Isn't it sad to say and believe that being a Christian in a Christian guild means you can't succeed in raiding like a non Christian guild or anything else in life? That makes no sense. I believe I can succeed at anything in life through GOD! No matter what the subject is.

If you read what I said, I was talking about "successful hardcore raiding" not just being successful at some raids. I was in Redeemed as long as you were (if not before) and saw us handle many successful raids. Red has had moments of excellent raiding through out it's history. Of course you can be successful at raiding, but to the level of hard core raiders that play the game an unhealthy amount of time? No way man.

Also I like your encouragement that God gives you the strength to do anything in life. However that is more new age self help wisdom then biblical truth. God will give you the strength to do something if it is "in His Will". God's will is layed out in the Bible and as you follow it, He will give you the ability to do anything written there. God doesn't give out gamer skills cause you pray more. He will most certainly not bless your raiding if a bunch of selfish people spending way too much time in a game and avoiding reading His Word ask him to help them raid better cause they can do "all things". I am not saying this is the state of Red, I am saying the extreme case.

Anyways I am not trying to argue but point out that the push to make Red a end game raiding guild is not compatible with being a Christ-led guild. The way the game is designed does not take Christian life into account. Of course you will be at a disadvantage to non-christians in this situation. Azeroth is not your home, you have a higher calling.

 

[Sambosoul]

Anyways I am not trying to argue but point out that the push to make Red a end game raiding guild is not compatible with being a Christ-led guild. The way the game is designed does not take Christian life into account. Of course you will be at a disadvantage to non-christians in this situation. Azeroth is not your home, you have a higher calling.

If raiding endgame content isn't compatible with being Christ-led. Then there are a lot of Christian sports organizations that are not being Christ-led. Yes their Goal is to honor Christ, but isn't their next goal to try their best at winning the championship?

 

[ewoksrule]

I am not a sports person, but I assume that you can excel in a sport with your skills and still maintain a balanced lifestyle that is Christ centered. If not, then I would agree it is not appropriate. I don't know enough about that topic and personally I don't think your analogy to competitive sports applies to the 5% of WoW content that is the last few raids.

In WoW and other MMOs, the time sinks put into place in order to be considered Hardcore raiding guild almost require guilds to be raiding 6-7 days a week with 6hrs+ a night of raid time.

The health of Redeemed is that you can experience some end game raids and have some amount of success while having balance and casual play time.s

But please notice that I already mentioned how Red has had some great success in raiding before. We spent months on Major Domo and finally took him down. That was a fantastic success. Of course other guilds who raid 7 days a week were working on BWL while we were stuck in MC, but it was still a fantastic end game raiding success for Red.

Why don't some of the Guild Leaders chime in here. Are you 3 committed to seeing Redeemed become a end-game raiding guild by definition and do you think it is compatible with remaining a healthy Christ led organization? If you have a plan that allows for that I would be more then willing to admit I am wrong in my opinion on this topic.


edit.. I didn't mean for this to become some holier then thou thing. I am the last person to make it that, as I need to look at myself. I am just trying to help some people understand that it is OK if ppl want to leave the guild and raid with other Guilds. If they want to experience the hardcore side by all means they should. But trying to make Redeemed that experiences is not wise, in my opinion.

 

[Sambosoul]

I am not a sports person, but I assume that you can excel in a sport with your skills and still maintain a balanced lifestyle that is Christ centered. If not, then I would agree it is not appropriate. I don't know enough about that topic and personally I don't think your analogy to competitive sports applies to the 5% of WoW content that is the last few raids.

In WoW and other MMOs, the time sinks put into place in order to be considered Hardcore raiding guild almost require guilds to be raiding 6-7 days a week with 6hrs+ a night of raid time.

The health of Redeemed is that you can experience some end game raids and have some amount of success while having balance and casual play time.s

But please notice that I already mentioned how Red has had some great success in raiding before. We spent months on Major Domo and finally took him down. That was a fantastic success. Of course other guilds who raid 7 days a week were working on BWL while we were stuck in MC, but it was still a fantastic end game raiding success for Red.

Why don't some of the Guild Leaders chime in here. Are you 3 committed to seeing Redeemed become a end-game raiding guild by definition and do you think it is compatible with remaining a healthy Christ led organization? If you have a plan that allows for that I would be more then willing to admit I am wrong in my opinion on this topic.


edit.. I didn't mean for this to become some holier then thou thing. I am the last person to make it that, as I need to look at myself. I am just trying to help some people understand that it is OK if ppl want to leave the guild and raid with other Guilds. If they want to experience the hardcore side by all means they should. But trying to make Redeemed that experiences is not wise, in my opinion.

There are casual raiding guilds that have reached far into Ulduar and are not putting in 6+ hours a night. They raid 3-4 days a week. You aren't required to be at every raid either. You ARE required to come prepared and focused.

 

[ewoksrule]

There are casual raiding guilds that have reached far into Ulduar and are not putting in 6+ hours a night. They raid 3-4 days a week. You aren't required to be at every raid either. You ARE required to come prepared and focused.

Well that sounds like a good goal to work towards in my opinion. From what I hear, you guys are basically there correct?

 

[Cassadine]

In WoW and other MMOs, the time sinks put into place in order to be considered Hardcore raiding guild almost require guilds to be raiding 6-7 days a week with 6hrs+ a night of raid time.

The health of Redeemed is that you can experience some end game raids and have some amount of success while having balance and casual play time

I agree with you here. We aren't trying to be a hard core guild raiding 6-7days a week. That's not what we said and if that's what someone wants then Redeemed definitely isnt for them. But there are guilds on this server that raid 2-3 times a week (casual) and have already done 10man ulduar all the way and are on Mim or the General on 25man. They specifically tell you they aren't hard core before you join. We might not make it all the way, thats fine but not even trying 25man except once so far and only one group of 10 man Ulduar running isn't helping the other 12-15 (or more if they have a chance) people that are left out that want to go.
Why are you so against raiding anyways? If you don't want to, you don't have to. I don't understand why it's such a problem to have a group of people in Redeemed that want to raid 2-3 days a week and see new content.

Well that sounds like a good goal to work towards in my opinion. From what I hear, you guys are basically there correct?

Not even close to any goal like that. Too many people have left or stopped playing that were skilled/geared players since Redeemed stopped making an effort to try and a couple officers tell them to raid with other guilds which makes no sense. We are in Redeemed to raid and fellowship with Redeemed people. Not go to another guild. Having our skilled/geared players leave doesn't help our guild as a whole no matter what. Even for casual raiding.

 

[Angryson]

Why don't some of the Guild Leaders chime in here. Are you 3 committed to seeing Redeemed become a end-game raiding guild by definition and do you think it is compatible with remaining a healthy Christ led organization?

Chime! In one sentence; yes, I am currently committed to putting Redeemed into end game content WITH success while remaining in and of Christ. I will address how in my replies to your comments and concerns.

Hardcore raiding is not compatible with a guild like Redeemed.

I agree. What I want to say here though that we need to keep in mind that there is difference between "hardcore" and "endgame" raiding. Here are the definitions of both in my mind:

Hardcore Raiding - Raiding that takes place on a consistent basis that also requires a lot of time spent raiding. I.E. 6+ days a week for 3+ hours per raiding night.

Endgame Raiding - Hitting and downing bosses in what is the most recently released "endgame" instance.

While one might argue that endgame requires hardcore, I beg to disagree. Keep reading to find out how!

It's not our fault, it is the way Blizz designed the game.

Agreed. HOWEVER! Blizzard has been very "nerf" minded recently when it comes to raiding, which will become VERY apparent when 3.2 hits. Gearing will be extremely easy with the emblem of conquest changes and will require less time spent grinding thru Naxx and more time in heroics. This, along with other changes, will alleviate a TON of time needed to get that real shiny piece(s) of gear.

I believe [we] can succeed at anything in life through GOD! No matter what the subject is.

Amen brother! Now while we aren't necessarily praying to God to help us kill every boss in Ulduar, we want Him to be with us at all times in whatever we do. I remember being told to bring God with you everywhere, not just to church or by your bedside while you pray. You want Him with you EVEN when you mow the lawn! So why not bring Him to Ulduar? I don't want God to be left waiting outside the instance for me until I'm done raiding (though He could probably hand that pesky horde problem for us...). I want His presence to be apparent wherever I go...even to endgame content. Because I see Him there with us in all those Screenshots of us whether its downing a new boss for the first time as Redeemies or dancing in town having a good time together.

You can be in a Christian guild and be successful in raiding without being hardcore. You don't have to be jerks. You can treat people with respect.

The CRUX of what we are about. We are in a video game that is more often than not, FILLED with slander, sexism, racism, and just plain dirty language. We amaze people when they find out that we are achieving soooo much as a Christian guild. It CAN be done and we are SHATTERING that stereotype left and right. You might not know it, but Redeemed is a pretty established guild on Stonemaul and lots of people see that <Redeemed> and know that you're a christian. Now think of how cool it is when they inspect your toon and see all those purples. What do u think goes thru they're mind. Awesome to think about, yes?

I dont think saying we cant be a great raiding guild because we are christian guild is right... I think it starts on...knowing your class/role in the raid.. Getting with your class leaders to be a better player. Obviously just gearing people through 25 naxx isnt enough, i mean you get the gear but there are some things you learn when you wipe on a boss alot while progressing...it starts with just getting with your class leader. Asking them "hey why do i spec like this" or "what is your rotation" i mean simple things can go a long way

If you want to become a better raider, this is how I see anyone having the most success. You have a class leader for a reason. I would suggest that anyone who want to raid on any sort of regular basis get with their class leader or even someone who u know can really play their class correctly (I mean if someone of your class is top of the healing/damage meters...give em a chat and see what they're secret is).

I am not a sports person, but I assume that you can excel in a sport with your skills and still maintain a balanced lifestyle that is Christ centered.

There are too many famous christian athletes to name so I will spare you that list. (google if you're really interested in being surprised).

I will leave you with this thought along with everything I've presented to you so far:

When Jesus walked the earth, He performed miracles. He taught, healed, and rose people from the dead.

His followers, along with everyone who truly believed in Him and His work were expecting Him to charge in and overthrow the tyrannical reign of the Romans. They envisioned Him taking control and becoming their King. However, things did not go as they planned, right? Jesus' work is still ongoing, even after His death all those years ago. It is a process for each and every individual.

I am not trying to compare our Raiding to Jesus' holy ministry. But, take into your minds that not everything happens overnight.

We have been dealing with big changes in Redeemed as a whole and are trying to make big changes in the way we Raid. Know that we have not forgotten about everyone and that we ARE doing our best. Your Guild Leaders
and I have been putting a lot of time into the changes you have seen and are going to see in the near future.

On a side note, I encourage you to put down your swords. This thread has been getting quite "sharp" as of late and I am not happy about it. I tend to hang out on the "non-confrontational" side of things, but I am drawing the line here. Any more negativity and you will see the side of me I reserve for dealing with disrespect and attitude. We are Christians here, following the ways of Christ. Do not be quick to judge or easy to anger. Remember we all want to see each other succeed.

 

[Asheriah]

I am not a sports person, but I assume that you can excel in a sport with your skills and still maintain a balanced lifestyle that is Christ centered. If not, then I would agree it is not appropriate. I don't know enough about that topic and personally I don't think your analogy to competitive sports applies to the 5% of WoW content that is the last few raids.

Samboe is correct. It is a perfect analogy in this case. You dont have to play sports to know what that means.

Raiding as Redeemed, i dont believe we have beat an Uldar 25 man yet...

So what do we as a guild need to do to accomplish this?

We PRACTICE!!! If that means raiding a few nights a week to fine tune different areas of weakness,, then we do it..

Oh by the way Raiding a few times a week happens to be incredibly FUN!!!


Sure it might be a few hours a night,, that is not unchristian, this game happens to be a hobbie for a lot of people,, so peeps put more than a few hours a week into their hobbies.. that doesnt mean that is unhealthy,, they are just doing what they love to do.. and they are getting better at it.

I think people are getting hung up on what the term hardcore means.

Hardcore doesnt have mean screaming at peeps, or punishing those that screw up in some way..

What it does mean and can be is putting the time and patience ,and attentiveness to be a team, and progress through ALL engame content..

Its not fun only getting part way through Uldar,, its fun to see how far you can get. every time you go. Samboe is right.. Beating Uldar is like winning the championship.. its the best we can do at this point in the game..

To me that is hardcore.. and it is tons of fun, and if where two or more are gathered in His name,, He is in the midst... that does honor God!

By the way Cassadine was not empying new age theology.. not one bit.. Jesus only did what He saw the Father do.. that means we can all do what we see Jesus do..
Jesus also said pertaining to Giftingings of the Spirit, that we would be able to do more than He... that is not new age that is our destiny as Christ followers if we have
a walking relationship with Him.

All this stuff is getting in the way of what is really the problem which is maybe we as a guild need to not just have an officer and leader meeting , but rather pull in
everyone who is currently raiding on a consistant basis, and talk about maybe reevaluating some of our polices which are crippling us from ever progressing the way we should be.

Who else is interested in having an all guild raiding meeting.???

 

[ewoksrule]

I disagree with you. It is self help theology to think that Jesus is there to empower you to do what ever you set your mind too. Jesus will not make you a better raider. Sorry that is horrible theology.

Jesus is not a vending machine you dial in what you want to set your mind too and he hands out the strength to accomplish it. God has a will laid out for you in His word and you can't go against that and then claim Jesus to empower you because you want it.

you are taking Phil 4:13 and turning it into an idol. It is not about material things like beating a raid boss. It is not about you, it is all about Him and giving you the strength to accomplish His will in your life. His Will is often in regards to self sacrifice and denial not material gain, like beating bosses in a video game.

Yes like Angry said, you can bring Jesus with you on raids (He is everywhere regardless) and give Him glory, that is definitely true. It is just frustrating to hear people throw phil 4:13 around (out of context) like its some self empowering thing to get you your material desires (like phat loot).

 

[Arakus]

I am just testing to see if I can post here again.
However if I can post I will say that what I just read about ewoksrule post made me sit up and take notice. I am very aware of the leading of the holy spirit and when things are sad that are off kilter my alarm bells go off. So I rebuke the spirit that I see forming here now. I rebuke the strife that I see being written here. Satan wants us to be in strife. It makes us as a body very "sickly". God meant his children to prosper in all things that we set our hand to and that everything we do should be in Jesus's name. We should be success at anything we put our hand to. I dont want to "Settle" and I know God does not want us to settle. I know there is a way to have this wonderful guild and for those of us who want to! TO RAID END GAME stuff.

 

[Angryson]

I disagree with you. It is self help theology to think that Jesus is there to empower you to do what ever you set your mind too. Jesus will not make you a better raider. Sorry that is horrible theology.

Jesus is not a vending machine you dial in what you want to set your mind too and he hands out the strength to accomplish it. God has a will laid out for you in His word and you can't go against that and then claim Jesus to empower you because you want it.

you are taking Phil 4:13 and turning it into an idol. It is not about material things like beating a raid boss. It is not about you, it is all about Him and giving you the strength to accomplish His will in your life. His Will is often in regards to self sacrifice and denial not material gain, like beating bosses in a video game.

It is just frustrating to hear people throw phil 4:13 around (out of context) like its some self empowering thing to get you your material desires (like phat loot).

I do not see anyone that is a raider using this theory/ideology. I think there is some miss-communication going on between you and another, ewoks. I doubt any one of us is praying to God, genuinely expecting Him to tip the scales that they get Armageddon.

 

[ewoksrule]

You are right about the strife. I am sorry for posting with negative emotions. I will refrain from any more posts on this today and I apologize for those I have offended. Please accept my apology as I have allowed myself to get upset with brothers in Christ.

 

[Angryson]

wise choice ewok. this goes to anyone else as well. if you find yourself angry/upset about something...sometimes the best course of action is to take a break, step back, and let your emotions settle.

A wise man once said, "I don't know of any situation that was made better by worrying about it."

 

[Goblit]

I think it’s sad to see friends leave the guild and have to go elsewhere to find what they are looking for in the game. Many people, take is as a personal rejection, as I know I have done in the past, but I’ve been through this all before.

Eight people who are geared leave because there aren’t enough geared people to play at their level with them. I don’t think they are selfish or impatient as others have said. These are the people have lasted the longest as we have partially geared up 25 others in the process of getting them gear, who have left the guild, quit the game or decided pve wasn’t what they wanted.

They are the people who realize that Redeemed can only help them get so far. They are the people who feel a strong connection to the fellowship in the guild and are torn apart and upset that they have basically outgrown Redeemed. They are our friends.


I see them as the unhappy people posting in the thread. They want the guild and the people in it to be more, different, to change. There are less experienced officers saying they want the same without making changes to the guild and its foundation. The guild leaders are remaining quiet, only asking for patience. Does this mean they are resistant to the change? Not necessarily. Maybe they see the big picture, and what the people who have not been through this before aren't seeing , and know what is going to happen next.

I don’t like to see my friends upset, and I don’t want them to leave. I would love to have the answer, but wait I do. God made Redeemed what it is and he is the only one who can change it, but I don’t think he wants to.

So the guild gears up 8 more people in the process 25 others come and go….and the cycle continues. Many will become my friends….and many will leave, but their footprints of where they crossed paths with me and Redeemed will always be there.

 

[Asheriah]

We need to discuss many things regarding end game raiding , and policies and
mains being forced to leave.. I do not believe Redeemed is forcing anyone to leave. If people truly wanted to stay in a Christian environment and be patient, they would. Obviously staying with Redeemed isn't as important to them as gearing asap. That is a choice and all are welcome to that choice. We've all seen people leave and come back many times, and it will probably still happen as that is the type of guild and people we are.

I am calling this meeting to be on Wed. @ 5:30 pm server time! This is not appropriate Ash, if we need a meeting, we can work on setting one up with people, but for you to assume that Wed at 5:30 works for all and demanding we all attend, it isn't appropriate. I'm not against a meeting and will do everything I can to try to get one together and let people speak, as long as tempers are cool and everyone has what they want to say in a logical manner with no attacks at officers or members.

I believe everything that needs to be said has been said in this thread. Some good and some not so good, so I'm going to close it, not to ignore the issue, please let me say that, but people have left because they choose to leave, there are hurt feelings (in guild- if they hadn't left, we could be doing Ulduar- out of guild, I wish redeemed had listened to us and did what we want) There are many steps being taken to get raiding back on track. Angry is doing an excellent job. We have a great group of 80's working on gear and in no time at all, we will be doing Ulduar. I had a lot of fun in the Naxx 25 runs. We've even done some Ulduar 10 with success! (some people had not even been to naxx very often to 'know' the fights) I have to say, for people who really want to stay in a Christian guild, they'd be patient and wait with us. Obviously it isnt that important to the people who leave to be in a Christian guild and that is their choice, but don't condemn people for that. (Story of prodigal son) God bless you all, I love you and if you need to pm me about setting up a meeting or time feel free. Ash, I'm not ignoring this, I just don't want to see sniping that is really unneccessary continue.