Suffering (Splinter from Satanism thread)

[Dark Virtue]

As soon as you prove, incontrovertibly, that "if there be [God], he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." These are simply two differing opinions. I mean, you've argued for months that the Christian God, should He exist, has issued an ultimatum based on fear-- which is patently false. You've just ruled out the existence of God based on a quote from a politician and an unfounded opinion of your own! That, my friend, is unreasonable.

In order for your points to be valid, you have to show that God has issued something other than an ultimatum. I don't think anyone has challenged this point of mine, avoided it, yes. You can start by defining ultimatum and choice.

You are also taking that one bit out of context, let's look at the whole thing:

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

This quote has nothing to do with disproving God. The quote is about the use of REASON. Jefferson wasn't claiming God didn't exist, as a deist, he believed in a god, although it was an impersonal god of nature as most deists do. Jefferson is pointing out one of the major problems with religious followers, they don't question their beliefs in a REASONABLE manner.

Does that make sense?

 

[Dark Virtue]

DV -

At this point I don't have a response for you and am not sure that I will. I am rather speechless by your description of God and am going to leave it at that for now.

Genesis1315

Hopefully, at one point, you will have a response.

I understand that my description is counter to the majority of this board, but if God were to exist, I don't believe it's in error.

There was a thread I started a while back that I didn't have the opportunity to follow up on regarding the characteristics of God. I asked for members to submit a COMPLETE picture of God's characteristics, but NOBODY mentioned any of the negatives. His anger, his jealousy, his greivances, none of it. Why do you believe that is? You can't ignore it, it's right there in the bible.

 

[Genesis1315]

Here is the list DV. Some may focus on certain attributes or Characteristics more than others. Being that we are human and mortal, we may not come to know all of the attributes of God.

Master
Strong One
Sees all
Sustainer
inexhaustible
Almighty
Provider
General
Sanctifier
Righteous
Vengegful
Jealous
Ever Present
Healer
Light
Lover
Creator
Just
Compassionate
Unchanging
Supreme Ruler
Patient
Holy
Good
Angry
Wise
Sovereign
Infinite
Divine
Eternal
Breath of Life
Wrathful
Trandscendant


With God possessing all of the attributes listed above, and even more, I am sure, how can I make the determination of how much suffering is enough. He knows far more that I do and through the suffering may be working for a greater good. It is not for me to decide. Do I want to go through any suffering??? Of Course not. I want it all to be given to me so that I do not have to endure the trials. But that is not the way that the Lord has given. We live in a fallen world. We suffer because of our choices. We suffer because of things in our lives that are contrary to the Will of God. We suffer because we love the Lord. Ultimately it is all for His Glory.

1 Peter 2:20For what credit is there if you endure when you sin and are beaten? But when you do good and suffer, if you endure, it brings favor with God.

1 Peter 3:14But even if you should suffer for righteousness, you are blessed. Do not fear what they fear or be disturbed,

1 Peter 4:19So those who suffer according to God's will should, in doing good, entrust themselves to a faithful Creator.

And so it is clear. I am not speaking as one who has not endure some suffering. Granted, my life has not been in danger for my belief in the Lord, Jesus Christ, but there have been other things that have been less than pleasant. But through His mercy and grace, I have arrived at the other side. It is for His glory that I went through the challenging time that I did and it is for His glory that I will probably go through more. While He may not protect me from such events, He will lead me through it. He is a lamp unto my path

Gen

 

[Dark Virtue]

In the end, you must admit that humanity suffers because your god WANTED man to suffer.

Whatever reasoning you wish to use is contrary to the point above.

I can't, in my heart or my mind, reconcile ANY suffering as the result of an omnimax being that claims to be compassionate and loving.

BTW, thanks Gen, that was as complete a list as I have seen.

 

[Genesis1315]

Our God wanted man to freely choose Him. Man did not.

and You're Welcome. It was very enlightening and uplifting to put the list together.

 

[Marcylene]

There was a thread I started a while back that I didn't have the opportunity to follow up on regarding the characteristics of God. I asked for members to submit a COMPLETE picture of God's characteristics, but NOBODY mentioned any of the negatives. His anger, his jealousy, his greivances, none of it. Why do you believe that is? You can't ignore it, it's right there in the bible.

We are created in God's image. While not perfected as He is, we have the same emotions. If you asked me to describe any loved one, I would, in love, give you what I see about them through eyes of love. Sadly, I have gotten angry in my lifetime. Yet, I am in hopes that I am not viewed as an angry or unkind person. I think if we could understand the reason behind God's anger we would agree and not consider Him anything but just and right.

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. Deuteronomy 32:4

Gen is absolutely, positively right. He does all in Love. Even Christians don't always understand. It goes right back to faith in Him and His Word.

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. Jeremiah 31:3
One of your favorite analogies is Pharoah's heart being hardened. Preacher threw that in as a side note last night, a freebie The first time Pharoah hardened his heart, it was of his own accord. When God hardened his heart, He was saying, in effect, "Do as you are determined to do, Pharoah; I AM not changing. I will be the same yesterday, today, and forever."

He is a good God. You just don't understand and seem determined to believe the opposite.

 

[Azzie]

I'm just wondering...if God provided sufficient evidence for DV to be convinced, wouldn't that basically limit Man's choosing?

If there were no room to remain skeptical about God, what good is our faith in Him?

Haha...I feel suffering is partially so we could remain skeptical...otherwise, our choosing of God would mean practically nothing.

It's like, assuming u have a girl u like...would u go up to her and tell her everything that's good about yourself so she'd basically have no logical choice but to like u back? OR would you prefer her to see the other guys out there, but STILL choose you, even though you did not tell her EVERYTHING about yourself?

"He is a good God. You just don't understand and seem determined to believe the opposite."
Well said.

As of now, God has chosen to keep His intentions secret for now. What else can we say about that? God is bad/weak because He keeps secrets? God doesn't exist because He doesn't tell us his reasons for doing things? Consider what would happen if He DID.

 

[Eon]

I'd do a sight more than hang back in the crowd hoping to be noticed, when all the other cool, young, religions are actively wooing her.

There comes a point in every relationship when you have to do two things:

1. Prove you love the other person.
2. Prove to them that they should love you.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Our God wanted man to freely choose Him. Man did not.

and You're Welcome. It was very enlightening and uplifting to put the list together.

Let's examine your statement...

God wanted man to freely choose HIM.

Not to freely choose, but to choose HIM.

 

[Genesis1315]

Yes. and I am aware of what I typed and how I typed it. Giving someone a choice does invite a certain amount of freedom ( I know what your response has been in the past, I just happen to disagree with it)

 

[Dark Virtue]

We are created in God's image. While not perfected as He is, we have the same emotions. If you asked me to describe any loved one, I would, in love, give you what I see about them through eyes of love. Sadly, I have gotten angry in my lifetime. Yet, I am in hopes that I am not viewed as an angry or unkind person. I think if we could understand the reason behind God's anger we would agree and not consider Him anything but just and right.

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. Deuteronomy 32:4

Gen is absolutely, positively right. He does all in Love. Even Christians don't always understand. It goes right back to faith in Him and His Word.

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. Jeremiah 31:3
One of your favorite analogies is Pharoah's heart being hardened. Preacher threw that in as a side note last night, a freebie The first time Pharoah hardened his heart, it was of his own accord. When God hardened his heart, He was saying, in effect, "Do as you are determined to do, Pharoah; I AM not changing. I will be the same yesterday, today, and forever."

He is a good God. You just don't understand and seem determined to believe the opposite.

We're not defining a person though, we're defining an omnimax being.

If I had the power to stop all the suffering in the world, but didn't, would you still think I was good? Would you still think I was good if you discovered that not only could I stop suffering if I wanted to, but I created all the suffering in the first place?

But God DOES change. Wasn't God all set to wipe out humanity but changed his mind and saved Noah and his family? Aren't prayers, essentially, requests for God to change his mind?

Regarding Pharoah, read Exodus 7. WHY did God want to harden pharoah's heart? TO SHOW HOW POWERFUL HE WAS. He tortured and killed countless people just to how tough he was? How is this good?

I understand your point Marcy, that many times I point out the negative. The reason I do that is to balance the whitewash many Christians present when talking about their religion. You call God good, but he has done many BAD things. Does the good counter the bad? It's hard to say yes when you see the suffering in the world.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I'm just wondering...if God provided sufficient evidence for DV to be convinced, wouldn't that basically limit Man's choosing?

If there were no room to remain skeptical about God, what good is our faith in Him?

Haha...I feel suffering is partially so we could remain skeptical...otherwise, our choosing of God would mean practically nothing.

It's like, assuming u have a girl u like...would u go up to her and tell her everything that's good about yourself so she'd basically have no logical choice but to like u back? OR would you prefer her to see the other guys out there, but STILL choose you, even though you did not tell her EVERYTHING about yourself?

"He is a good God. You just don't understand and seem determined to believe the opposite."
Well said.

As of now, God has chosen to keep His intentions secret for now. What else can we say about that? God is bad/weak because He keeps secrets? God doesn't exist because He doesn't tell us his reasons for doing things? Consider what would happen if He DID.

I have asked this countless times, but no one has yet to respond.

If God were so great, so wonderfully fantastic, then why would Satan rebel against him, along with 1/3 of the angels? There'd have to be a pretty dang good reason to go up against an omnimax being. If God were so great, why did the Israelites continually wonder if he could feed them or provide them with water or protect them? What does this say about God?

You can't say that having incontrovertible proof would limit choice, because God proved himself time and time again to men and angels in the past. And what happened when he did? THEY CHOSE AGAINST HIM. Why do you think that is?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Yes. and I am aware of what I typed and how I typed it. Giving someone a choice does invite a certain amount of freedom ( I know what your response has been in the past, I just happen to disagree with it)

Why do you feel that God has not, more specifically, offered us an ultimatum?

Once again, I'll give you the definition:

a final proposition, condition, or demand; especially : one whose rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or other direct action

Is this not a final condition? If you reject God, will he not **** you to hell? Sounds like a resort to force to me.

A choice, on the other hand is defined as:

a sufficient number and variety to choose among

I don't consider TWO options sufficient to constitute a variety.

 

[Genesis1315]

Yet you continue to choose against Him and He has not taken you to Hell yet. You make an active choice on a daily basis to not accept Christ as your Saviour. There is no final decision here

Gen
and I hope the * were ones that you typed and not a word that does not belong here.

 

[Dark Virtue]

It was, I figured in a religious sense it was allowable

Let me say again, that I have not made a choice. How can I make a choice when I don't have enough evidence to do so?

In cases like this thread, I am merely trying to understand what God exactly is. Everyone understands the good, but the bad is all too often swept under the rug. I'd rather look at the WHOLE picture before making a choice.

 

[Dark Virtue]

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?”

Epicurus

 

[Marcylene]

We're not defining a person though, we're defining an omnimax being.

I HATE when you call Him that!

If I had the power to stop all the suffering in the world, but didn't, would you still think I was good? Would you still think I was good if you discovered that not only could I stop suffering if I wanted to, but I created all the suffering in the first place?

We are in a world of sin. Why it had to be created this way, I am not certain. I choose to trust Him. If you could fully understand that God is Love and longsuffering at that, you would not be so quick to judge Him so harshly and falsely.

But God DOES change. Wasn't God all set to wipe out humanity but changed his mind and saved Noah and his family?

Noah had been preaching for hudreds of years and all they did was scoff at him and become more and more wicked.

Aren't prayers, essentially, requests for God to change his mind?.

Actually, prayer is speaking to God and He to us. I have heard it said that there are many things that may be available to us that we simply do not ask for. I am not certain how true that is, but even with trials and tribulations, I don't think most Christians would want to change God's mind, but have His will in their lives knowing that He has our ultimate best at heart.

And we know that allthings work together for good to them that love God, to th em who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

Regarding Pharoah, read Exodus 7. WHY did God want to harden pharoah's heart? TO SHOW HOW POWERFUL HE WAS. He tortured and killed countless people just to how tough he was? How is this good?

He is very good. He got our forefathers out of Egypt, a very picture of sin. Who knows what would have happened to the women and children if Pharoah had his way with them? Who knows what would have become of our generation?

I understand your point Marcy, that many times I point out the negative. The reason I do that is to balance the whitewash many Christians present when talking about their religion. You call God good, but he has done many BAD things. Does the good counter the bad? It's hard to say yes when you see the suffering in the world.

I understand your point very well. Yet thou he slay me, yet will I trust in Him. I am concerned about you; no matter how much you may try to say otherwise, your preconceived notions about Him...I can only call it as I see it, and from what you say, you do believe He is, and you hate Him. That is how it seems as you speak of Him. I mean no disrespect and attempt to speak from a heart that does not mean to be harsh towards you, but loving and truthful. A prayerful heart, the same as my brothers and sisters in Christ here, that desire for you to see the truth and be set free by it. We have an earnest desire for you to see God as He truly is.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I HATE when you call Him that!

Why? It's a descriptive term that defines ultimate power in every area.

We are in a world of sin. Why it had to be created this way, I am not certain. I choose to trust Him. If you could fully understand that God is Love and longsuffering at that, you would not be so quick to judge Him so harshly and falsely.

Christians are quick to point out that it is impossible to fully know God Are you saying that YOU fully understand God? If so, then you would be certain why God wanted to create this world full of pain and suffering.

Noah had been preaching for hudreds of years and all they did was scoff at him and become more and more wicked.

That doesn't nullify my point. How were countless numbers of babies and children considered wicked? What about the animals? Were they wicked too? This is GOD, all powerful, remember? Why did he have to use such a low tech approach to get rid of the wicked?

Actually, prayer is speaking to God and He to us. I have heard it said that there are many things that may be available to us that we simply do not ask for. I am not certain how true that is, but even with trials and tribulations, I don't think most Christians would want to change God's mind, but have His will in their lives knowing that He has our ultimate best at heart.

You're missing the point. When you ask for things in prayer, you are asking God to change the course of what he already had planned. A successful prayer would change God's mind, no?

He is very good. He got our forefathers out of Egypt, a very picture of sin. Who know what would have happened to the women and children if Pharoah had his way with them? Who knows what would have become of our generation.

Would you mind telling me exactly how many people made it into the Promised Land from Egypt? Wasn't it TWO? TWO out of an estimated three million people? How is that VERY GOOD? You see, this is an excellent example of the whitewashing I described.

I understand your point very well. Yet thou he slay me, yet will I trust in Him. I am concerned about, no matter how much you may try to say otherwise, your preconceived notions about Him. I can only call it as I see it, and from what you say, you do believe He is, and you hate Him.

I do not, as you claim, believe he exists. However, when partaking in discussions on God, it's easier to speak with the assumption that he DOES exist. Otherwise, I'd have to start every sentence with, IF GOD WERE TO EXIST... Make sense?

And again...when you avoid painting the whole picture, I am forced to pick up the slack, and that usually involves pointing out the negative. If you were TRULY objective, you would point out the good WITH the bad. A perfect example would be the Exodus comment you just made.

 

[Genesis1315]

In cases like this thread, I am merely trying to understand what God exactly is. Everyone understands the good, but the bad is all too often swept under the rug. I'd rather look at the WHOLE picture before making a choice.

And one burned cookie in a dozen does not mean that the whole batch needs to be thrown away.

 

[Marcylene]

It seems most disrespectful when you call Him by that term!

Christians are quick to point out that it is impossible to fully know God Are you saying that YOU fully understand God? If so, then you would be certain why God wanted to create this world full of pain and suffering.

No, I don't fully understand Him. I find it exciting that it will take an eternity to get to know Him, all the while loving to be with Him!
I don't fully yet know Him but I choose to trust Him and take Him at His Word. There are laws, just as the law of gravity. With my finite mind I can only imagine some of those are in effect as to why things are the way that they are. I don't understand trials and tragedies even in my own life, DV. Nevertheless, I choose to trust Him.

You're missing the point. When you ask for things in prayer, you are asking God to change the course of what he already had planned. A successful prayer would change God's mind, no?

Prayer can be asking Him to change His mind, but it goes far beyond that aspect. Prayer is fellowship with God. It is telling Him my heart, and the desires thereof. It is seeking to know Him, as I admit to and show Him what He already knows about me. It is trusting that He loves me and that I may go to Him and speak to Him as a trusted friend. It is an attitude of the heart to live in without ceasing. Prayer goes beyond our wildest dreams of the best, of the best, best, best relationship and the closeness thereof, sharing life and trusting and loving. Prayer is praising and thanking Him for all that He has done. Prayer is seeking Him for His help and strength and help for others. Prayer can be a playful, it can be somber. Prayer is adoration. Prayer is faith in His existence. Prayer is hearing His still small voice. Prayer is a constant song in our hearts, with differing melodies and tunes which exceeds the grandest, Heavenly musical scale. Prayer is meditating on His Words and reminding Him of His promises.

Would you mind telling me exactly how many people made it into the Promised Land from Egypt? Wasn't it TWO? TWO out of an estimated three million people? How is that VERY GOOD? You see, this is an excellent example of the whitewashing I described.

Yet, you choose to paint everything black!!! I don't pretend to understand it all. I can see my Spiritual heritage as an Israelite as I so soon forget His provision. I can fully well realize how only a couple made it into the promised land as I seek out Godly friendship today and see how few really love and adore Christ. Then, I must look at myself and wonder if I am any better.

I do not, as you claim, believe he exists. However, when partaking in discussions on God, it's easier to speak with the assumption that he DOES exist. Otherwise, I'd have to start every sentence with, IF GOD WERE TO EXIST... Make sense?

Yes, it makes sense. The Bible promises us wisdom and understanding. We have to read it and I become concerned how you could do that not believing. I don't understand the why's of everything that God does. I know that I glory in the fact that He deals with imperfect people who seek wholeheartedly after Him. I am grateful that the God that you attempt to paint does not exist. He is not horrible, evil, nor wicked.

And again...when you avoid painting the whole picture, I am forced to pick up the slack, and that usually involves pointing out the negative. If you were TRULY objective, you would point out the good WITH the bad. A perfect example would be the Exodus comment you just made.

God also gives us hope. I know He has the ability to strike me down, and by anything but the blood of Jesus and Him in me, he has every right to treat me most horribly. Nevertheless, I find He deals with me in love and compassion.
The Bible asks and wants us to realize that we can echo the same, "Oh, death, where is thy sting?" In addition, Psalm 23 tells us that we can have peace in death. I say with the greatest love for anyone I can have, the deaths of my loved ones were preciously sweet. He gives grace even in death. How much more so through the deaths of His saints? I think that is simply how He is, and Who He is. Yes, many Israelites died, but He tells us that precious in His sight are the death of His saints. It is we who paint death as black. Gates of pearl, streets of gold, no pain, crying, separation from Him, no more death or dying, mansions, rejoicing, music more glorious than we have ever heard, glorious sights that we could never look upon in this earthly body...Heaven! Those fleeing Egypt made it to the Promised Land, DV.