Suffering (Splinter from Satanism thread)

You're going to have to have to narrow your question a bit or I'll be forced to assume a few things.

Let me say this though: You believe God to be omnimax, correct? That is, God has the utmost power, the utmost intelligence, et al.

YOU, as a finite human being, with a finite intelligence, may not be able to conceive of a way to create an intelligent being, gifted with free will, granted incontrovertible proof of his creator and still not suffer one iota of pain. Christians are claiming that God can't do that. If so, then God isn't omnimax and therefore, not GOD. Other Christians claim God CHOSE not to do that. If so, then God isn't omnibenevolent and therefore, not GOD.

As I said before, Christians accuse us nonChristians all the time of limiting the Power of God. This isn't a logical fallacy involving creating a rock so heavy God couldn't lift it.

The fallacy is in believing that God couldn't get rid of suffering or chose not to get rid of it.

So to answer your question ANY suffering is too much to be consistent with the Christian definition of God.
 
Actually, creating a world with free will and then only giving people the "choice" to choose one way IS a logical fallacy. That's like saying that the Iraqi people had a choice in their elections under Saddam. When there's only one name on the ballot, there's no choice.

The alternative to a world with free will is a world of automatons, proclaiming whatever God wants us to say, but never having any meaning. Would that be a more palatable universe to you? Life without meaning?
 
Thanks Wildbill, that is EXACTLY the mindset I was referring to.

First of all, that analogy doesn't work here because Saddam isn't God. You are removing the omnimax status from the equation. Is God omnimax or not?

Just because YOU can't envision a world of free will without suffering doesn't mean that scenario isn't possible. You are limiting the intelligence and power of God by suggesting that scenario isn't possible.

Life without meaning? Is that how you view heaven? Isn't heaven populated with only people that chose God? Do you consider them automatons?

Again, the only fallacy here is the Christian mindset that believes that God has offered you anything other than an ultimatum. What good is Free Will when faced with an ultimatum?
 
Whoooooweee! Let me strap on my boots for this. :)

Ok so im not the most skilled when it comes to using the whole quote thing on this website, so bear with me.

DV said:
YOU, as a finite human being, with a finite intelligence, may not be able to conceive of a way to create an intelligent being, gifted with free will, granted incontrovertible proof of his creator and still not suffer one iota of pain. Christians are claiming that God can't do that.

Im not sure who gave you the definition or told you that God cant do that, becasue he did! Sounds like a hipocritical statement? Well, let me provide scripture to back up my statement.

First of all when God made the world it was perfect. I.E. There was NO pain and suffering, there were no animals eating each other, there was no death.

Gen1
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

God made sure to include everything in his description of what would eat the green herb for plants.

Another bit of proof that there was no pain:
Gen2
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

So now we have the fact established that God created man, the whole earth in fact, perfect. No pain, no suffering, just perfect bliss.

However, there has to be a consequence for giving one free will. If there is no consequence then there is no free will.

Gen2
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

In this verse God does 2 things. First He gives man free will, by giving him the choice to eat of every tree in the garden. When God said to eat of every tree except.. He is giving us the free will to break that commandment. So we have to have a consequence for breaking that commandment. The consequence, death. Pretty steep consequence, but who are we to say what God can and cant do? On a side note when ever we act in rebellion to God's commandment, it is called sin.

Rom6
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So there we have our consequence for breaking God's commandments.

But God is a loving God and is longsuffering. He did not cause an immediate death, but rather a slow one. Honestly Im glad he did it that way, cause otherwise we would not be having this conversation right now.

Gen3
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Here is the doleing out of the punishment from God to His children. If you have children yourself you will know just how hard it is to punish them. I can only imagine the heartbreak that God was feeling when He had to do this. I think women got the brunt of it because she was the first to rebel, but man certainly got his share as well. Here also is when Adam started having to work for his food, instead of it being provided.

So to explain how it can be both ways there you go. God made the world perfect as well as man, but in order to have free will, there must be a consequence. If Eve had not fallen to the temptation of the serpent, then the world would be a much different place than it is today. BUT she didnt, so its not, and its all in Gods hands, so let Him be God, and follow Him. :cool:

Im sure i meant to put more into this, but I got distracted while writing and lost my train of thought.
 
Dark Virtue said:
Just because YOU can't envision a world of free will without suffering doesn't mean that scenario isn't possible. You are limiting the intelligence and power of God by suggesting that scenario isn't possible.

Life without meaning? Is that how you view heaven? Isn't heaven populated with only people that chose God? Do you consider them automatons?
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Please explain to me how it is possible that one can have free will and no choice at the same time, and how that is not a logical impossibility.

Heaven has meaning because we CHOOSE to be there. Also, since there is no sin in Heaven, I would assume that means there is no free will. I'll gladly check my free will at the door to get to do what I WANT to do anyway.
 
Sorry Arkanjel, you're missing the omniscient part.

God should have known his creation would fall and cause suffering, thus he could/should have gone a different route, so suffering would never have to happen.

So are you telling me that God didn't know Eve would cause the fall of Man and his suffering, or are you telling me God had suffering in mind all along?
 
[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff said:
Please explain to me how it is possible that one can have free will and no choice at the same time, and how that is not a logical impossibility.
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But I don't have to answer this, that's my point.

It's possible because God is omnimax, he could make it so.

Are you saying that God is bound by the rules of logic?

You might want to think carefully before you answer that :)

Heaven has meaning because we CHOOSE to be there. Also, since there is no sin in Heaven, I would assume that means there is no free will. I'll gladly check my free will at the door to get to do what I WANT to do anyway.
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There was no sin before the fall of man, right? And that was without A&E's choice to be there. So

EH? You gladly give up your free will to be in Heaven, where there is no free will, to do what you want? That's a non sequitor my friend.

How can you do what YOU want in Heaven when you have assumed there is no free will there? You will be doing GOD'S will, not your own.
 
Dark Virtue said:
God should have known his creation would fall and cause suffering, thus he could/should have gone a different route, so suffering would never have to happen.

But I don't have to answer this, that's my point.

It's possible because God is omnimax, he could make it so.

Are you saying that God is bound by the rules of logic?

You might want to think carefully before you answer that
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Your kind of contracdicting yourself with your replies here. Why did God choose the way of suffering? For one if u can answer that you better write a book and sell a bajillion copies, and then ill hit you up for money. Im just telling you why suffering is in this world. We have suffering because it is a consequence of free will. We had the free will to obey God and just not mess with that one tree, but we like the children we are, couldnt resist that big cookie sitting out on the counter. SO we are punished for our transgressions. We cant say He didnt tell us what would happen, cause He did. Its free will, combined with predetermination. Ive heard it put in an interesting way, that paradox, and ill try to recreate it here for you.

God puts a door before us that says,"Enter all who may" but after passing through the door on the other side it says, "Welcome my chosen ones."

Granted that in and of itself is a whole other thread, but the idea is the same. God CAN create both free will and predestination. After all He is God and can do whatever He wants!
 
What am I saying that you believe is contradictory?

What I have been saying is that I believe you can't claim God is omnimax (which includes omnibenevolence) and still have suffering.

An omnimax god could/should have conceived of a better way.
 
Should have concieved of a better way?? For one, who are we to decide what is and isnt good for us? Parents do things kids dont like all the time, but it is for there own good. Havent we all heard that a time or two?
 
Dark Virtue said:
But I don't have to answer this, that's my point.

It's possible because God is omnimax, he could make it so.

Are you saying that God is bound by the rules of logic?

You might want to think carefully before you answer that :)
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This is nothing more than philosophical sleight of hand. You make it seem like if I say that God is bound by logic, then he is not omnipotent.

Can God make himself disappear? He could... but then there would be no God, no people, no universe, nothing. As a good God, it would be against His nature to annihilate the universe.

I believe it would be against God's nature to create logic and then make it so that it only applies to humans and not to Himself. After all, He subjected Himself to our rules for about 33 years. So, could He change the rules? Yes, but it would be against His nature to do so.

That brings us back to the original question: Why did He make the rules the way they are?

Well, let's examine something else we know about God: that God is Love. Love, in and of itself, is a CHOICE. Without a choice of the alternative (hate or indifference, depending on who you talk to), love is no longer a choice. There HAVE to be alternatives for love to have any significance.

Dark Virtue said:
There was no sin before the fall of man, right? And that was without A&E's choice to be there. So

EH? You gladly give up your free will to be in Heaven, where there is no free will, to do what you want? That's a non sequitor my friend.

How can you do what YOU want in Heaven when you have assumed there is no free will there? You will be doing GOD'S will, not your own.
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How is it a non sequitor to CHOOSE to give up my free will? That is my CHOICE, friend. What do I enjoy more than anything else on earth? Praising God. What will I be doing in Heaven? The same.
 
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Arkanjel said:
Should have concieved of a better way?? For one, who are we to decide what is and isnt good for us? Parents do things kids dont like all the time, but it is for there own good. Havent we all heard that a time or two?
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Are you a parent?

If your child were about to touch an open flame on your stove, would you stop his hand or would you let him burn himself to teach him a lesson?

A parent, a GOOD parent, prevents ANY injury from harming his child. A human parent though, cannot always watch over his child. Nor did a human parent create the world around their child.

God not only created the child, but the world around the child, down to every last detail. Moreover, being omnimax, God has the ability to allow his child to never know pain or suffering.
 
[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff said:
This is nothing more than philosophical sleight of hand. You make it seem like if I say that God is bound by logic, then he is not omnipotent.
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Hey, you're the one that brought up logic, not me :)

My point here is that I run into this argument all the time. As a man of reason, I like to think that logic governs all. Christians are quick to point out that God isn't bound by logic. You were attempting to pound a square peg into a round hole by limiting God to logical circumstances. Once you do that, it changes the WHOLE ballgame. That's why I asked you to think carefully about your answer. Is God bound by logic or not?

Can God make himself disappear? He could... but then there would be no God, no people, no universe, nothing. As a good God, it would be against His nature to annihilate the universe.
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Ah, but it was ok to annihilate 99.9% of this world in a flood? A "good" God would want create a world free of pain and suffering. A "good" God that was omnimax could make this happen.

I believe it would be against God's nature to create logic and then make it so that it only applies to humans and not to Himself. After all, He subjected Himself to our rules for about 33 years. So, could He change the rules? Yes, but it would be against His nature to do so.
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WOW, that's a MAJOR statement. I just want to be clear, you are saying that God IS bound by the rules of logic, correct?

That brings us back to the original question: Why did He make the rules the way they are?

Well, let's examine something else we know about God: that God is Love. Love, in and of itself, is a CHOICE. Without a choice of the alternative (hate or indifference, depending on who you talk to), love is no longer a choice. There HAVE to be alternatives for love to have any significance.
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I think you need to define Love, because I don't define it as a choice. Which love are you referring to? Agape, Eros, Phileo, Storge?

How is it a non sequitor to CHOOSE to give up my free will? That is my CHOICE, friend. What do I enjoy more than anything else on earth? Praising God. What will I be doing in Heaven? The same.
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Look at what you said, "Heaven has meaning because we CHOOSE to be there. Also, since there is no sin in Heaven, I would assume that means there is no free will. I'll gladly check my free will at the door to get to do what I WANT to do anyway."

If you have no free will in heaven, wouldn't that make you an automaton? You said above, that you believed love was a CHOICE. If you lose your free will in heaven, how can you say that you loved God without an alternative? I think you've painted yourself into a logical corner.
 
If you have no free will in heaven, wouldn't that make you an automaton? You said above, that you believed love was a CHOICE. If you lose your free will in heaven, how can you say that you loved God without an alternative? I think you've painted yourself into a logical corner.
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But if I choose to give up my free will, that ultimately was my decision. My final decision, mind you, but still my decision. Logical paint avoided. ;)

Also, no, I'm not saying that God is bound by the rules of logic. I'll give you an example:

I recently put myself in timeout when I said "Oh, crap!" in front of my 2 year old son. That's a phrase that he picked up from me, that I have been putting him into timeout for. I bound myself to the rules of my home in order to teach my child that he should abide by those rules as well. I had the power to break the rules-- but I instead chose to humble myself in his sight and follow the same rules I laid out for him. Similarly, God is not bound to any rules of logic, but I believe He chooses to follow them since He has given them to us.

I've got to get some work done, but I will address the rest tomorrow.
 
[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff said:
But if I choose to give up my free will, that ultimately was my decision. My final decision, mind you, but still my decision. Logical paint avoided. ;)
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Ahhh...so you ARE saying that those in heaven will be automatons?

Also, no, I'm not saying that God is bound by the rules of logic. I'll give you an example:

I recently put myself in timeout when I said "Oh, crap!" in front of my 2 year old son. That's a phrase that he picked up from me, that I have been putting him into timeout for. I bound myself to the rules of my home in order to teach my child that he should abide by those rules as well. I had the power to break the rules-- but I instead chose to humble myself in his sight and follow the same rules I laid out for him. Similarly, God is not bound to any rules of logic, but I believe He chooses to follow them since He has given them to us.

I've got to get some work done, but I will address the rest tomorrow.
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Hmm, sorry, but that's not a very good analogy.

The rules of logic are a very different thing. You're either bound by them or you're not.
 
Yes I have a child. When I tell her to not touch something, that doesnt mean that she wont do it. Perhaps its that she is too young to understand why I dont want her to touch something. I have made my commandment, but the child, being a child, has to find out for themselves just what the consequences are. You sure do claim to know a whole lot about God for being so young. Im sure when Methusalah died at the ripe old age of 965 he was still trying to figure God out. Face it, God is God and that is that. His ways are not ours and we will never understand Him until we go to be with Him, i.e. the afterlife. However He has given us a great guide to start to get to know Him, but that is our decision to make.
 
Arkanjel said:
Yes I have a child. When I tell her to not touch something, that doesnt mean that she wont do it. Perhaps its that she is too young to understand why I dont want her to touch something. I have made my commandment, but the child, being a child, has to find out for themselves just what the consequences are. You sure do claim to know a whole lot about God for being so young. Im sure when Methusalah died at the ripe old age of 965 he was still trying to figure God out. Face it, God is God and that is that. His ways are not ours and we will never understand Him until we go to be with Him, i.e. the afterlife. However He has given us a great guide to start to get to know Him, but that is our decision to make.
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Ah, but you didn't answer my question.

Let me spell it out again.

As a loving parent, do you let your child touch the flame in order to learn a lesson?

Once you answer, I'll move on.
 
In order for a lesson to be learned, Yes. Would i want it to happen, No. The pain is only a temporary thing, but the lesson learned will last a lifetime.

Proverbs 13
24 He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him
 
Well I don't have a child...but I am going to answer anyways. As I have six babies I work with daily, sometimes more. Yes, sometimes you have to let your child touch that flame before they learn or can even fathom why they are told not to touch it. As a loving parent sometimes you have to let your child make their own decisions to learn. You can tell them time and time again, "hot" or "don't touch" but wait until you turn your back and that is teh first thing they will go for. As it was in the garden of eden. We have all had an experience like such in our life. An experience where we had to touch the flame to learn that it wasn't good for us.
 
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