Is Dungeons and Dragons

[LionOfJudah]

ummm wow conspearicy theory guru here.... funny the school i went to had Bibles dating back to the early 1600's that we could use in the Libary

Internet.... anyone can put anything on that thing.... wow its sad when people base all their finds off of the net. why not open a book or something

 

[Drelin]

Quote[/b] ]What will you think of god then?

If I die a Christian and go to 'hell', then the two main posibilities that come to mind are; the god I believed in wasn't the true god - the true god could have been Allah or the easter bunny... or that God is sadistic and was lying when he said that mankind could achieve salvation.

If it was the former, then the question doesn't really apply - you're asking what I'd think of 'god,' if I found out he didn't exist. I would ponder on the identity of supernatural being that was torturing me (maybe a psychotic easter bunny?).

If the latter, then I would laugh out of sheer exasperation. All the killing and dying that's been done in the name of God, only to find out that he was just joking around with the messiah and that all he really wants is to see us suffer.

DemonAura

No one here is plotting to kill you, though I am beginning to see homical mania in a more positive light after having reading some of your posts. No one is forcing you to believe anything. You're not adding anything to the discussion here. Untill you decide to do so, why don't you go and educate yourself

Quote[/b] ]Internet.... anyone can put anything on that thing.... wow its sad when people base all their finds off of the net. why not open a book or something

Books - anyone can put anything in those things. Wow; it's sad when people base all their findings off a book. Why not do some thinking for yourself or something?

Actually, I've no problems with books either, but I thought it compared nicely. There's nothing wrong with using the internet. Hopefully you don't believe what's written in a book, just because it's written in a book? (Excepting, of course, the Bible). Thinking's a great thing to do when reading from both the internet and books.

 

[Kidan]

Quote[/b] (DemonAura @ April 03 2004,12:16)]you want proof? Lilith and all that, not all ansewers reside on the internet. you have to research old bibles, the church would like to distroy as many of them as they can so new information is not conradicted. If you go to some antique book stores and look into it you will find plenty of information, i have sat down my self and read these Bibles most had to be translated from latin. yea i know its a endless argument and it will get no where, more planes will hit building more people will die, wonderful things will happen and life will go on. its a shame that people keep trying to make ourselvs out to be better than a simple animal, we are just talking monkeys, i have more respect for animals they dont kill for religion, money, color or sexual prefrence. i think a platypus deservs life more than us, we will be then end to this planet and hopefully life will begin again with out us. we are natures mistake,

so might as well start now, cut off your nads kill your kids and then take your weak life, religion is the weakness of human kind.

the same as LoJ, the school I attended, though not a theological school, did have a fairly nice antique archives, and they had in their possession an illuminated Bible (but it's since moved on)  No reference to Lillith there.  Maybe the person translating for you, was pulling your leg.


So you're a simple animal?  Then what's stopping you from killing randomly (doves will kill other doves without provacation) raping anything that moves (the concept of choice of sexual relations is a fully human concept) and taking whatever you desire whether it belongs to you or not (most monkeys, and a couple birds, are natural thiefs).  My point is, for simple animals, we have an a morality, self-control and self-awareness which are all rather unique items in the animal kingdom

I could say the same thing, since you're just a simple animal without morality, self-control or self-awareness, castrate yourself.  Self-delusion is the weakness of humanity.  It's just your decision whether self-delusion is a religion or atheism.

Quote[/b] (GrandMaster @ April 03 2004,1:41)]Let's pretend that there is a god, but you Christians have it wrong; you have chosen the wrong religion to follow. For this mistake you will suffer in hell for eternity. What will you think of god then? Will you say "Oh well, I guess I'm a dummy. I got it all wrong. I deserve my punishment." What would your opinion of god be if that happened?

Since Christianity is the only non-works religion, and a good life as a Christian fulfills the requirements for eternal rewards in other religions your argument is just slightly flawed.

 

[Eon]

Why do you think he isn't out doing all of the above - the same reason that we aren't (or dead) because we live in a society with walls, and those walls are guarded by men with guns.

And we collectively signed the pact to exist like that when we formed societies larger than family groups.

Eon

 

[Grand Master]

Quote[/b] ]Since Christianity is the only non-works religion, and a good life as a Christian fulfills the requirements for eternal rewards in other religions your argument is just slightly flawed.

Oh really? Well what if the god presented in the Old Testament is real, but Jesus was a fraud? Do you think the god of the Old Testament would tolerate and accept that you have spent your life worshipping another god?

 

[Lewanuva2003]

I believe God created us, and like we love our children, he loves us, only more. We sinned, so he sent his son to die for us so we could die with him in our hearts and go to heaven.

 

[Master~Plan]

Quote[/b] ]Oh really? Well what if the god presented in the Old Testament is real, but Jesus was a fraud? Do you think the god of the Old Testament would tolerate and accept that you have spent your life worshipping another god?

Quote[/b] ]If I die a Christian and go to 'hell', then the two main posibilities that come to mind are; the god I believed in wasn't the true god - the true god could have been Allah or the easter bunny... or that God is sadistic and was lying when he said that mankind could achieve salvation.

I give up. Arguments like these are proof that you people can just believe whatever you want reguardless of anything. The fact that Jesus did all his miracles through God, was risen from the dead, had a dove from the father land on him, and God audibly said, "this is my son" is all disreguarded, and Jesus is a fraud, and we are worshiping some other God, and God will send us all to Hell...
Its one thing to argue your point of evolution, or athiesm. Thats fine. But don't pretend to argue against christianity from a "christian perspective" and how it could be wrong. How God could be lying, God could be sadistic, ...?! who are you people!? "Yeah God is a big fat liar, because of his long history of lies... And I saw on E Hollywood True Story the other day about how Jesus was sadistic, so that must be true..."
If you want to believe the easter bunny can save you and give you life, I hope for your sake your right. Were not trying to sell you anything. God doesn't need you to believe in Him for Him to exist. When you get to judgement day, theres no pleaing ignorance....

Quote[/b] ]Rev 3:20 Here I am I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

 

[Kidan]

Quote[/b] (Grand Master @ April 03 2004,9:19)]

Quote[/b] ]Since Christianity is the only non-works religion, and a good life as a Christian fulfills the requirements for eternal rewards in other religions your argument is just slightly flawed.

Oh really? Well what if the god presented in the Old Testament is real, but Jesus was a fraud? Do you think the god of the Old Testament would tolerate and accept that you have spent your life worshipping another god?

for the sake of your argument, since I'm a gentile, living a good Christian life fulfills all the requirements to get me into Abraham's Bosom based upon the Law.

 

[Mahfrot]

Quote[/b] (Grand Master @ April 03 2004,4:19)]Oh really? Well what if the god presented in the Old Testament is real, but Jesus was a fraud? Do you think the god of the Old Testament would tolerate and accept that you have spent your life worshipping another god?

Your argument is slightly flawed. You're assuming that we Christians here are all modalists. I think it's safe to say we're probably not. So you're argument should probably be revised to say "Do you think the God of the Old Testament would tolerate and accept that you have spent your life worshipping a part of Him that's false?"

Now that this is corrected, I realize that you have a pretty good question here. I ask that you consider this site: liar, lunatic or lord?

Hope this helps.

 

[timor]

Ugh, I can't stand the "liar, lunatic, or lord" argument..it creates such a false trichotomy. Also, Josh McDowell is worthless. I don't care that his work is mainly directed at teens, he could still form better arguments. "The Resurrection Factor", for example, is complete trash.

 

[Jango]

Quote[/b] ]Oh really? Well what if the god presented in the Old Testament is real, but Jesus was a fraud? Do you think the god of the Old Testament would tolerate and accept that you have spent your life worshipping another god?

But see, Jesus IS God in the form of a man, but that's for a different topic. We as Christians worship God, so it wouldn't really matter.

 

[Mahfrot]

Quote[/b] ]it creates such a false trichotomy

Explain.

Also, Timor, it seems to me that you draw an awful lot of your "resources" from this infidelguy website, which, as I've investigated as of recent, is pretty full of holes with arguments from non-credentialed so-and-so's.  Why don't you try defending your arguments with proof of fact from research you've done yourself.

So based on this, why do you find The Resurrection Factor to be such trash? To me it seems that you may just be bothered by the use of logic, as he uses also in Liar, Lunatic or Lord. Makes a pretty convincing case if I say so myself.

 

[timor]

Wow Mahfrot, why don't you just take the gloves off basically unprovoked, buddy? Oh wait, you just did.

You want to see me defend my arguments with proof of fact from research I've done myself? I do it all the time. Linking to IG is often a lot easier than typing out lengthy explanations, etc. But hey, why don't we have a one-on-one debate? You can suggest the topics, I'll agree to one.

The Resurrection Factor uses incredibly faulty scholarship and logic, that's why its such trash. But if you're convinced by the Bible, McDowell would be pretty convincing.

By the way, you don't need credentials to form a logical proof. If the argument is sound, it is sound, regardless of your degrees.

 

[Drelin]

Mahfrot, what stops us from using the trilemma of liar, lunatic or lord to conlude that Mohammad, or cultists who risk much and seem coherent are telling the truth?

Master~Plan

Quote[/b] ]I give up.

*snip*

I suggest you go back and read what I wrote in context before you make an even bigger fool of yourself. Read > comprehend > post. Try to complete the first two steps before posting. If you're having difficulty doing that (as seems evident), I recomment not posting at all.

I am insulted by your assumptions regarding pretty much everything about me. Rather than grouping people who happen to disagree with you under the banner of evil Marxist pinko atheist, try reading and understanding what they have to say, and then forming an opinion. You might even learn something.

 

[Grand Master]

Mahfrot, my argument is not flawed, and I didn't make any assumptions about you people being modalists. I just wanted to know what the Christians here believed their fate would be if it turned out that there was in fact a god but Jesus was not his son. The point was to consider what might happen if what you believe wasn't true.

Quote[/b] ]But see, Jesus IS God in the form of a man, but that's for a different topic. We as Christians worship God, so it wouldn't really matter.

That's what you believe. I believe you're wrong. If Jesus wasn't the son of the god of the Old Testament, then it might matter, since the god of the Old testament forbids you to worship a god other than him (the first and most important commandment). You do worship Jesus, right?

Actually, I find it strange that the god of the Old Testament even mentions not worshipping other gods. It could be construed as meaning that there are in fact other gods that exist.

 

[Master~Plan]

Quote[/b] ]I suggest you go back and read what I wrote in context before you make an even bigger fool of yourself. Read > comprehend > post. Try to complete the first two steps before posting. If you're having difficulty doing that (as seems evident), I recomment not posting at all.

I am insulted by your assumptions regarding pretty much everything about me. Rather than grouping people who happen to disagree with you under the banner of evil Marxist pinko atheist, try reading and understanding what they have to say, and then forming an opinion. You might even learn something.

Yeah well, the thing about that is, I'm pretty sure I did "read" and "understand" your post... But maybe its my post that I didn't make too clear, so fair enough.
The only reason you have heard anything about God is because there is the Bible. Yet, you turn around and make assumptions like there is lots of killing in the name of God. You try to make arguements (like I said) from a "christian perspective". That is you say,"well, if God did exist, then he could be sadistic, or lying or whatever". This is all stuff you made up. The Bible paints quite the opposite picture. The irony is you haven't read and understood the Bible, before you go and make "logical arguements" against it. It doesn't make any sense to make an assumption of God being sadistic, or lying based on anything the Bible says. However, anything you can know about God comes from the Bible.
As far as killing in the name of God. I had nothing to do with this, and God had nothing to do with this. I'm assuming your talking about roman catholics, and thier frequent burnings. There are many "religious" people that do terrible things. Jesus spent the majority of his life talking against such people.(pharisees) If I go out and start torching churches, and say "its all in the name of Evolution", and "this one is for good ol Darwin" does Darwin or Evolution have anything to do with what I do?

 

[Drelin]

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Quote[/b] ]Yeah well, the thing about that is, I'm pretty sure I did "read" and "understand" your post

Don't be so harsh on yourself. I'm not suggesting (as you are) that you're an idiot - I'm just fairly certain you don't understand what I wrote. At least, given your replies, I hope you didn't read and understand my post. I would feel very sorry for you if you had understood to the best of your ability what I wrote.

I started to respond to what you've written, but decided it wasn't worth it. Instead of me wasting my time explaining what I said and why what you've written is wrong and based on your misunderstandings, I'll tell you again; go back and read what I wrote in context before making another self degrading post. Since you're struggling and I hate to see people suffer, I'll give you a few hints:

- I wasn't making an argument at all, but rather responding to Grand Master's hypothetical.
- I didn't say, "well, if God did exist, then he could be sadistic, or lying or whatever."
- There was no assumption of God being a sadist or a liar. That was one possible conclusion from the hypothetical situation posed by Grand Master.
- I didn't say that the all killing and dying is God's fault.

edit: Also, the green font is unreadable. Is it some sort of tactic?

 

[Mahfrot]

Quote[/b] ]The Resurrection Factor uses incredibly faulty scholarship and logic, that's why its such trash. But if you're convinced by the Bible, McDowell would be pretty convincing.

I'd still like an explanation.  But I supposed if you don't believe in the Bible then you probably wouldn't want to listen much to a Christian's standpoint.  Just like if you lived by that infidelguy site and told me everything on there was truth, I'd laugh at you all the same because I'm not an athiest.  So there's no point in arguing that I suppose...

Also, I didn't really take my gloves off, I just made a simple statement.  It's tough to argue with someone who draws his ultimate truth from himself basically, whereas I draw my ultimate truth from a bit higher source.  But I'm not quite sure I want to open up that can of worms...

Quote[/b] ]Actually, I find it strange that the god of the Old Testament even mentions not worshipping other gods. It could be construed as meaning that there are in fact other gods that exist.

It's important to note that the Lord wasn't talking about other "Gods" but instead "gods."  We've had this argument on here before at some point...  Basically, anything can be a "god," whether it be money or fame or whatever, because all a god is is something that is worshipped, idolized, or followed; basically whatever is at the head of your life.  It can even be you.  However, there's a big difference between a god and the Lord God.

Quote[/b] ]what stops us from using the trilemma of liar, lunatic or lord to conlude that Mohammad, or cultists who risk much and seem coherent are telling the truth?

Try it out on someone.  Show me your logic and reasoning, and if it holds up the same way Christ does then I'll digress.  It's not that I need to know that the liar, lunatic or lord method holds up, I already believe in Christ as it is.  But for those logical people that aren't as hard-hearted as some, it's helped put an argument across in the past, for me at least.

 

[Drelin]

I'm not that familiar with Islam, but I'll take Mohammad as an example. My understanding is that he claimed to be a divine prohpet speaking for God. Clearly, anyone who claims to speak for God is either insane, lying or telling the truth. Mohammad and his followers risked and even gladly sacrificed their lives for what they believed in - liars would not do this - they cannot be lying. Millions of people have followed and do follow the coherent teachings of Mohammad - the teachings of a mad-man would not be coherent and millions of intelligent people would not follow them. We are left with only one alternative; Mohammad was telling the truth.

We now have the trilemma proving that both Mohammad and Jesus were telling the truth. However, since only one of them could be telling the truth, must not the trilemma be flawed? The trilemma does a number of things which to my mind don't work. First, it sets up a false trichotomy. Liar, lunatic or lord are not the only three options. The subject could have been genuinely misled - not mad or lying - quite sane but wrong. The subject may not have made any claim of truth or divinity - these claims could have been invented later by his followers.

Second, even if there were only the three stated options, the reasoning it uses to reach the conclusions it draws simply don't follow. Liars can and do risk their lives for lies. The fact that somebody has placed themself in a situation of risk over a belief doesn't automatically prove that their belief is not a lie. Would the Sept. 11 terrorists have sacrificed themselves for a lie? Why can't insane people be coherent? Not all insane people are raving idiots. Take Friedrich Nietzsche - insane during the later periods of his life but some people think his works of that period to be the most profound.

 

[Mahfrot]

Now, although your argument might work according to Josh McDowell's argument, it would not hold up to C.S. Lewis' argument, who started the whole thing. In fact it was McDowell that named it the trilemma, not Lewis. Lewis' trilemma debate holds a bit of a different stance to your argument; it's based around the fact that Christ claimed to be God, while these other fellas didn't. So although I will admit that McDowell's approach may be a bit off, the trilemma proof as a whole is still pretty accurate. This site sums it up better than I can: liar, lunatic or lord?

Now, for those of you who actually read the site I posted, I know this is a secondary source, but seeing as how I've read the book (Mere Christianity) and other snippets myself, his theories ring true. Just so happens this guy is a bit more word-saavy than I.