Heaven
- Thread starter Dark Virtue
- Start date
Jim
New Member
Thing is, how can anyone be without Sin? We need sin, or more apropriately, evil.
I don't know if you ever saw that old Star Trek episode where Kirk gets split into two: His evil self and good self. One is only capable of good and no evil, the other is purely evil.
In the end, neither can truly live. Through good we get our ability to empathise and sympathise, our want to help others and our aversion to that which we feel is evil.
On the other hand, evil is strength. By using evil, even in slight ways, we have determination to carry out things with conviction and determination. Ambition and want are in many cases considered to be 'sins' but can you possibly imagine the world without it? we would all be lazy, hopeless lumps with no reason to live or go out to the big bad world.
Like it or not, no one can be devoid of evil. A person without evil, even in tiny amounts is not perfect, only incomplete and impotent.
On a side note, Jesus lost His rag and trashed the temple cos He was angry that people were disgracing and dishonouring it by using to sell stuff. His anger was a result of rage, indignation, possibly disgust. And of course, one of the seven deadly sins: wrath. Even Jesus was not above the evil in all of us.
And before you say God is without sin, look at the bible. I don't even need to point you to a site to tell you God shows a great deal of evil and sometimes downright sadism at some points.
I don't know if you ever saw that old Star Trek episode where Kirk gets split into two: His evil self and good self. One is only capable of good and no evil, the other is purely evil.
In the end, neither can truly live. Through good we get our ability to empathise and sympathise, our want to help others and our aversion to that which we feel is evil.
On the other hand, evil is strength. By using evil, even in slight ways, we have determination to carry out things with conviction and determination. Ambition and want are in many cases considered to be 'sins' but can you possibly imagine the world without it? we would all be lazy, hopeless lumps with no reason to live or go out to the big bad world.
Like it or not, no one can be devoid of evil. A person without evil, even in tiny amounts is not perfect, only incomplete and impotent.
On a side note, Jesus lost His rag and trashed the temple cos He was angry that people were disgracing and dishonouring it by using to sell stuff. His anger was a result of rage, indignation, possibly disgust. And of course, one of the seven deadly sins: wrath. Even Jesus was not above the evil in all of us.
And before you say God is without sin, look at the bible. I don't even need to point you to a site to tell you God shows a great deal of evil and sometimes downright sadism at some points.
Jesus is without sin, the angels are without sin. And one day us belivers will be without sin.
This isnt star trek.
No... in heaven Love is all we will desire.
With nothing but love I know i will feel complete, finally.
No no... God has the wrath reserved for him, and Jesus is God therefor his wrath was rightous.
No god isnt evil, we just dont understand him completely.
This isnt star trek.
No... in heaven Love is all we will desire.
With nothing but love I know i will feel complete, finally.
No no... God has the wrath reserved for him, and Jesus is God therefor his wrath was rightous.
No god isnt evil, we just dont understand him completely.
Jim
New Member
[b said:
And giving in to rage and smashing up temple stalls doesn't fall into the category of 'Wrath?'
[b said:
Ahh. So THATS why my phaser don't work! Damn mail order!
I never said it was. I was using a situation to make a point.
[b said:
Can you back this up with scripture or is this opinion?
[b said:
With nothing but love you would be incapable of making intelligent decisions. Without the spirit of rebellion and mischief, you wouldn't be abe to make even the most simplest of decisions.
[b said:
So God/Jesus can commit one of the seven deadly sins when he feels like it? As DV said, 'Do what I say, not as I do.'
[b said:
[b said:
Yup. Another notch for 'mysterious ways.'
Dark Virtue
New Member
Come on Byblos, you claim to be Christian yet you can't back up anything you are telling us with scripture.
Why am I supposed to beleive you? Because you say God tells you so? Back it up in scripture or get to packing.
Why am I supposed to beleive you? Because you say God tells you so? Back it up in scripture or get to packing.
Jesus IS GOD and is allowed ot have wrath!
Star trek situations are absurd.
We will be more like God he says, and All he wants is love.
What would there be to decide?
God said wrath is reserved for him, and only he can have it.
SO now you challenge my faith? well yes God speaks to me personally. If you want scripture backing look it up for yourself. I only memorize what it is, not where it is.
Star trek situations are absurd.
We will be more like God he says, and All he wants is love.
What would there be to decide?
God said wrath is reserved for him, and only he can have it.
SO now you challenge my faith? well yes God speaks to me personally. If you want scripture backing look it up for yourself. I only memorize what it is, not where it is.
Jim
New Member
[b said:
Don't you understand? This means that God cannot be perfect! He C-A-N-N-O-T be perfect if he is prone to the same sins we are! He is supposed to be perfect, but isn't!
[b said:
Arrrrgh!!
Why is the situation absurd? It is making a point! I doubt someone can just split themselves into two, good and evil like that, but the moral is the same. We cannot live without our good and evil impulses. They contradict, but complement each other to make us whole. Forget the stupid Star Trek thing!
[b said:
So your basing your opinion on that? It isn't much to go on. For all we know, what God meant by that is that we could Gods of our own little fantasy worlds. Alright I'm being absurd, but I get the distinct impression you only half-heard my points in my last post.
[b said:
Are you saying Heaven is a void with no conscious thought? What is love if you cannot make a decision to love?
[b said:
See my first point.
[b said:
Are you suggestin we look up a bible with over a thousand pages to find a single reference without so much as a clue?
I am getting the impression you are not listening to my points, perhaps skim-reading them. You simply repeated the points I refuted before.
It isnt a sin for GOD. HE IS ALLOWED TO HAVE WRATH! not because he has to but because he chooses to.
We can live without evil just fine! ou just dont want ot be without it!
In order to get to heaven you must have already made the decision to love God and the saints.
I can read and understand well. You however im not so sure about.
We can live without evil just fine! ou just dont want ot be without it!
In order to get to heaven you must have already made the decision to love God and the saints.
I can read and understand well. You however im not so sure about.
Jim
New Member
I think we need to calm down. We are both getting frustrated. Sorry If I came across as insulting.
The point I do not get is why you consider God perfect when he suffers the same flaws we do.
1: God is considered the apex of moral authority. He is considered above and beyond the reach of sin. He is thought to be flawless.
Yet he commits sins. I believe you conceded that you were unsure about some of God's actions earlier. He is violent, punishes children for the sins of the fathers even to the tenth generation.
My question: Why do you consider God perfect when he clearly isn't? Saying he is allowed to commit sins because he is 'allowed to' is no more appropriate than sayin the President of the US can commit murder because he makes the rules.
Live without evil:
Picture this: You have to bring a guy some medicine. Without this medicine, he will die. You promise to go get him some.
On your way back, you see a guy lying on the street, having collapsed from a stroke. What do you do?
Help him? But you must make a decision to allow the other guy to die while you bring this guy to safety.
Pass him by? You are commiting a great evil by leaving him to die, but are saving another person from death.
This is a moral dillema that can happen. In both cases, an evil decision must be made. You may not realise it, but almost every decision you make has both evil and goos factors in it, even if they are not obvious.
I am sorry fro getting angry though.
The point I do not get is why you consider God perfect when he suffers the same flaws we do.
1: God is considered the apex of moral authority. He is considered above and beyond the reach of sin. He is thought to be flawless.
Yet he commits sins. I believe you conceded that you were unsure about some of God's actions earlier. He is violent, punishes children for the sins of the fathers even to the tenth generation.
My question: Why do you consider God perfect when he clearly isn't? Saying he is allowed to commit sins because he is 'allowed to' is no more appropriate than sayin the President of the US can commit murder because he makes the rules.
Live without evil:
Picture this: You have to bring a guy some medicine. Without this medicine, he will die. You promise to go get him some.
On your way back, you see a guy lying on the street, having collapsed from a stroke. What do you do?
Help him? But you must make a decision to allow the other guy to die while you bring this guy to safety.
Pass him by? You are commiting a great evil by leaving him to die, but are saving another person from death.
This is a moral dillema that can happen. In both cases, an evil decision must be made. You may not realise it, but almost every decision you make has both evil and goos factors in it, even if they are not obvious.
I am sorry fro getting angry though.
IM really fine with all of this, everything else around me is pretty irritating though
!) He made the rules aimed at us because he is the Judge not us. He doesnt break the rules because they do not apply to him. He is perfect, we cannot challenge this beacuse we do not know his intentions, but he knows our every thought.
2) IN heaven there is no sickness, we are immortal and invulnerable, no bad things will happen for any of us to have to make such a choice. And on Earth we will have to try out best to do right.
3)dont be sorry for being angry, im sure this is frustrating, I know because I wasnt always saved! I was once just like you arguing and arguing but now here I am, trying to explain it all but English just doesnt have the words I need!
!) He made the rules aimed at us because he is the Judge not us. He doesnt break the rules because they do not apply to him. He is perfect, we cannot challenge this beacuse we do not know his intentions, but he knows our every thought.
2) IN heaven there is no sickness, we are immortal and invulnerable, no bad things will happen for any of us to have to make such a choice. And on Earth we will have to try out best to do right.
3)dont be sorry for being angry, im sure this is frustrating, I know because I wasnt always saved! I was once just like you arguing and arguing but now here I am, trying to explain it all but English just doesnt have the words I need!
Jim
New Member
[b said:
I'm sorry, I REALLY don't understand how you put this across. You've already said he has wrath. Wrath is a sin. sinful beings are imperfect. Therefore he is imperfect?
Read the skeptics annotated bible to understand the points which cause friction; there is clear evidence that God uses cruelty and injustices. Read the parts yourself, find out what I mean.
A perfect God wouldn't do this. I'm sorry, I cannot accept a perfect being would fall victim to exact same faults we do, wether or not he has an unfathomable mind. A perfect being is just that; perfect, without fault, flawless. Sin is flaw, therefore by commiting a sin wether or not he is allowed to by his divinty is a flaw. If we cannot agree to this point, we'll have to agree to disagree, cos I can't break it down any further.
It has been a pleasure arguing with you tonight, but I have to go to bed now. Night.
He has wrath and is allowed to have Wrath, we are not allowed to have wrath because we are imperfect!
It isnt a fault, its his right to punish the wicked because he is perfect.
Wrath is only a sin for the imperfect, you cannot label him as imperfect for having wrath because hes allowed to as long as he is perfect >_<
It isnt a fault, its his right to punish the wicked because he is perfect.
Wrath is only a sin for the imperfect, you cannot label him as imperfect for having wrath because hes allowed to as long as he is perfect >_<
Dark Virtue
New Member
Sheesh, Jim, just ask him to read the Satanic Bible while he's at it
I doubt many theists can get through the Skepdics Annotated Bible without cringing.
Byblos, you said, "2) IN heaven there is no sickness, we are immortal and invulnerable, no bad things will happen for any of us to have to make such a choice. And on Earth we will have to try out best to do right."
Please give some scriptural evidence for this view of heaven. In fact, give some scriptural evidence for to support ANY of your views.
I doubt many theists can get through the Skepdics Annotated Bible without cringing.
Byblos, you said, "2) IN heaven there is no sickness, we are immortal and invulnerable, no bad things will happen for any of us to have to make such a choice. And on Earth we will have to try out best to do right."
Please give some scriptural evidence for this view of heaven. In fact, give some scriptural evidence for to support ANY of your views.
Dark Virtue
New Member
Scriptures, Byblos, scriptures. Chapter and verse please. Come on, you study this book every day, the least you can do is show some scripture.
The reason I keep asking for scripture is because I would like to know that you actually have a scriptural foundation for your claims and you aren't just accepting tradition.
Using scripture, please describe where heaven is, who can access heaven, and what heaven is like.
The reason I keep asking for scripture is because I would like to know that you actually have a scriptural foundation for your claims and you aren't just accepting tradition.
Using scripture, please describe where heaven is, who can access heaven, and what heaven is like.
Dark Virtue
New Member
So you're saying that you can't prove it scripturally?
Dark Virtue
New Member
OY!
I'm not asking you to convert me, I'm asking you to back up your beliefs with scriptures. I'm asking what makes you believe what you do. What in the Bible makes up your beliefs?
I'm not asking you to convert me, I'm asking you to back up your beliefs with scriptures. I'm asking what makes you believe what you do. What in the Bible makes up your beliefs?