Catholic Miracles

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Oct. 17 2003,5:00)]I see reverence as putting "insert somthing here" above all things. To have an extreme amount of honor for somone. God is worthy of all praise honor and glory. Only to him will my knee bow.

Please forgive me, I am going to play devil's advocate here.

When you pray to Jesus, you are not praying to Jehovah (God the Father). Thus, you are worshiping Jesus, and not Jehovah.

How is that different than asking Mary to ask Jesus to ask Jehovah for something?

(Feel free to make some "telephone" jokes here:
Leo: Mary, help my daughter get an A in Anatomy.
Mary: Jesus, help Leo's daughter get an A in Astronomy.
Jesus: Dad, help Cleo's father get an A in Astrology.
GTF: What? Nobody is supposed to look to stars for guidance! I'm going to strike everyone involved dead!)

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Yeshua is God. Lets see what the Bible says now. 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is for there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Yeshua Messiah." So you see I pray to the father through his son for he is the mediator. Also Yeshua is God so I can and do worship him. It is called the Holy Trinity.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Big J @ Oct. 19 2003,5:12)]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Oct. 17 2003,5:00)]I see reverence as putting "insert somthing here" above all things. To have an extreme amount of honor for somone. God is worthy of all praise honor and glory. Only to him will my knee bow.

Please forgive me, I am going to play devil's advocate here.

When you pray to Jesus, you are not praying to Jehovah (God the Father).  Thus, you are worshiping Jesus, and not Jehovah.

How is that different than asking Mary to ask Jesus to ask Jehovah for something?

(Feel free to make some "telephone" jokes here:
Leo:  Mary, help my daughter get an A in Anatomy.
Mary:  Jesus, help Leo's daughter get an A in Astronomy.
Jesus:  Dad, help Cleo's father get an A in Astrology.
GTF:  What?  Nobody is supposed to look to stars for guidance!  I'm going to strike everyone involved dead!)

Good Point, Big J. That is why Islam has a problem with Christianity. The argument the Prots use against Mary, the Muslims use against Jesus. It wasn't my place to say anything, but it is good to see you are mentally active and paying attention. Good work!

 

[LionOfJudah]

Jesus being in very nature God did not consider equaility with God something to grasp, but instead he humbled Himself, even to death, death on a Cross.

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]So...are you denying that the Bible was cannonized by the Roman Catholic Church?  I'm curious...

There is no doubt the Council of Carthage produced a canon in 397. My dispute is Leo's assertion that it was the Catholic Church that assembled the Bible together as we know it, thus the church is authoritative in determining the rational concepts of the scriptures and no one else. It is no secret some members of the RCC denied the Inspiration of the canon that came out of Carthage.

His statement "we don't use it to place other gods (Paul) before Him" makes no sense whatsoever. He denies the 1st century church recognized Paul's writings as Scripture.

He also obviously thinks Peter was lying or delusional when he quoted Paul's epistle in 2 Peter 3:15-16? The 1st century church considered the writings as Scripture, which should carry an enormous amount of weight. My other point is there was a canon in existence around 500 B.C. thanks to Ezra, Nehemiah and others.

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]1. Are there any translations of the Bible that are inerrant today?

I refer to the original autographs; however, the science of textual criticism assures us of a trustworthy text. Inerrancy can be claimed only for the original writings (Jer. 36:2).

Quote[/b] ]2. If not, how do we know what was actually written?

We know through the science of textual criticism. Additionally, competent scholars estimate that our present Greek and Hebrew texts are without errors of significance. That is, there are very few words in dispute. Certainly the copies of copies which have come down to us contain errors common to the craft of the copyist as do all English versions.

Quote[/b] ]3. Inerrant means no errors...no matter how stupid and inconsequential, an error is an error. Agreed?

Inerrancy is defined as meaning "exempt from error" and infallibility as a near synonym meaning "incapable of error, certain."

Quote[/b] ]4. As an example, if I showed a passage saying that Jesus was wearing tan Dockers when he was arrested, and another passage that said that Jesus was wearing khaki Bugle Boys, that would be an error. Agreed?

No not agreed. As I mentioned above English translations do have copyist errors that can be rectified when examining the Greek and Hebrew texts.

Quote[/b] ]5. If yes, what would you do if you found an actual error?

You would be the first person in history to actually find a true error. I accept your challenge.

 

[timor]

He would not be the first person in history to find a true error. Closing your mind to these things doesn't make them untrue. I will see what BigJ presents, then I may present some of my own.

Anyways, why didn't God oversee the translation of the Bible into english to ensure its inerrancy and legitimacy? After all, if someone cannot read Koine Greek or Hebrew, then the only copy of the Word of God they have is their vernacular. Now, if this translation of the Bible is chock full of errors, what reason do they have to trust that it is the Word of God? Hell, since they can't read Greek and/or Hebrew, even if you could show them how something is not an error by looking at the "original" text, it's your biased word against their ignorance. Totally unacceptable. Does not God have any accountability?

 

[Watcher]

As I said textual criticism insures us that we have an accurate text today. The translational errors are insignificant. God inspired the autographical texts, period. I don't question God's sovereignty, nor should you.

 

[timor]

They are quite significant, and I do question God's sovereignty, since the only source of information on Him (assuming it is the Christian god) is the flawed Bible.

btw, in case you're not aware, I'm an atheist

So, please prove that he inspired the Bible.

 

[Watcher]

Hi Timor,

The Bible in the original autographs are not flawed. As I have mentioned already, the science of textual criticism has proved we have a modern accurate text. I cannot vouch for all of the many different translations out there from NIV, to NASB, to the AMplified, etc. as they all have different copyrights thus using different words, etc. Through diligent Bible study of the Hebrew and Greek texts in existence, scholars have beyond the shadow of a doubt confirmed we have the original texts in tact with just a few words in contest. You can either chose to accept or deny this. What it really comes down to is you are not indwelled with the Spirit of God yet. The Holy Spirit brings the lost to saving faith in three ways.

1. Illuminates the mind
2. Softens the heart
3. Persuades the will

You'll be in my prayers.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]2.  If not, how do we know what was actually written?

We know through the science of textual criticism. Additionally, competent scholars estimate that our present Greek and Hebrew texts are without errors of significance. That is, there are very few words in dispute. Certainly the copies of copies which have come down to us contain errors common to the craft of the copyist as do all English versions.

So...only the originals (of which there are no copies) are actually inerrant, but any errors that are there are minor and inconsequential.

I'm not going to pull the whole "bat/bird" thing.  

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]4.  As an example, if I showed a passage saying that Jesus was wearing tan Dockers when he was arrested, and another passage that said that Jesus was wearing khaki Bugle Boys, that would be an error.  Agreed?

No not agreed. As I mentioned above English translations do have copyist errors that can be rectified when examining the Greek and Hebrew texts.

And I refer you to a literal translation...and one says tan and the other says khaki.  You look back at the Greek, and it is "Tanos" and "Khakios"  Tan and Khaki, respectively.

What then?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]5.  If yes, what would you do if you found an actual error?

You would be the first person in history to actually find a true error. I accept your challenge.

Great.  We just need to come to an agreement on the trouser color question.  (so to speak) and...I would like you to let me know what versions you will accept.  I prefer RSV.

Oh, and if you know of one...any greek "original text" versions on-line? That are free?

Thanks.

 

[Guest]

The Roman Catholics have NOT been given to follow Mary.
Read 1 Corinthians Chapter 11:1
"Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ." amen
Mary can not make Paul to be a liar.
For if at any time so much as even one man comes to me and says Mary said to follow her, i can say you did not hear Mary.
IT WAS NOT MARY. AMEN
NO MAN FOLLOWS me, i send all to Paul. amen
i am nothing0 and know Jesus does not shoot Himself in the foot by sending His mother to confuse things.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

 

[Watcher]

Hi BJ,

Let's make this real simple. Please produce the errors in which you speak of.

 

[Guest]

TIMOR, do you bother ever to actually look up the meanings of words before you open your mouthe?
What nonsence you spout!
Webster's defines:
WORSHIP, n. 1. Courtesy or REVERANCE paid to worth;
REVERE(NOT rever) v.t. To regard with REVERANCE; TO VENERATE.
This does NOT HAVE TO BE me always teaching you little one all things.
Go to the store and buy a Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, or better yet bid on one on e-Bay.
i suggest the 5th, 6th, and 7th editions.
i am nothing0.
Thankyou Jesus.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

 

[Guest]

Lets make this even simpler, try reading ALL my previous posts and look to find where i have made an error.
ANd if you can not; and you will not be able to, then THE TRUTHE WILL SHUT YOUR MOUTHE. AMEN
i am nothing0
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

 

[timor]

adelpit - good idea capitalizing my name, otherwise i wouldn't have read your message...i never read any of the crap you spew anymore...anyways, worship would be a stronger form of reverence, as we see:

Quote[/b] ]re·vere1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-vîr)
tr.v. re·vered, re·ver·ing, re·veres

To regard with awe, deference, and devotion.

Anyways, like I said, I have some errors of my own I'll throw in, but first I want to see what BigJ produces

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (Watcher @ Oct. 20 2003,9:20)]Hi BJ,

Let's make this real simple. Please produce the errors in which you speak of.

But first...a quote:

Quote[/b] ] If the God of the Bible is truly God, then there is a dilemma; for God to be God, he has to be omnipotent, responsible for the creation of everything, and this includes evil; if he did not create evil, then he was not wholly creative, and therefore cannot be God. In fact the Bible does say that God commits and/or is responsible for evil, e.g., Exodus 32:l4, 2 Sam 24:l6, 1 Chron 21:l5, Jer l8:8, 26:3,13,19, Jonah 3:l0. Furthermore, he sends lying spirits (1 Kings 22:23, 2 Chronicles 18:22) and deliberately deceives people (2 Thessalonians 2:11). And not only this, he admits to being responsible for the creation of evil and misery (Isaiah 45:7), and that he has deliberately made people so he can destroy them (Proverbs 16:4).

Agree? Disagree?

Wisdom...
A good thing: Proverbs 4:7
A bad thing: 1 Corinthians 1:19

Terah (Abraham's pappy) was 70 when Abraham was born (Gen. 11:26). Abe was 75 when he moved (Gen 12:4). (70+75 = 145) T lived to be 205 years of age (Gen 11:32). Yet Acts 7:4 Says T was dead when Abe left.

Where was Jabcob buried?
a cave in Machpelah's field that was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13
a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16

How many went?
David takes 700 horsemen - 2 Sam 8:4
David takes 7000 horsemen - 1 Chron 18:4

How many were destroyed?
David destroys 700 chariots - 2 Sam 10:18
David destroys 7000 chariots - 1 Chron 19:18

(as an aside, you can argue that it is "just" an extra zero. Or a forgotten one. Please tell me how many there were. And explain how this "mistake" got past the all powerful creator of the universe. If you feel he cannot be bothered with such trivialities...I ask why not, since he is all powerful (and yes, I have gotten that from another Christian))

One of my favs...and my last one for this time:
Satan incites David to number the people - 1 Chron 21:1
God incites David to number the people - 2 Sam 24:1

So who was it?

As for the trouser question, the point was that you can blame a lot of things for places where the Bible doesn't match...but the question is...when it doesn't...what do you do? Especially since these mistakes seem to go back as far as I have found.

Are you going to blame the translators? Most do. Then I challenge them to look at every version...and these are mistakes that pop up in EVERY version, including literal ones.

 

[timor]

You're right about the "extra zero", Big J. God should certainly see to the inerrant translation of His word.

As (I believe) Robert Ingersoll said, "If there be one mistake in the bible, there may as well be a thousand."

 

[LionOfJudah]

Timor just wondering are you catholic now, you started this topic and said Catholic miracles refute them or convert? did you convert?

 

[timor]

hahahah yeah right

im still most definitly an atheist

i started this because i feel that Christians, with their many beliefs in miracles, cannot (or should not) very easily dismiss the miracles which the Catholic Church claims

edit --> btw, Lion, where/when was that picture taken (besides blockbuster hehe)