Catholic Miracles

[timor]

I don't reach, Watcher. That's what faith is for. Is something is within my reach, within my grasp, it's mine. If it's out of reach, such as knowledge of the existance of God....

Anyways, I could easily immitate Hemmingway's style of writing - such forgery is not difficult.

And GM, congratulations! You are an agnostic - welcome to the club, my freind!

 

[Dibbler]

Quote[/b] (Grand Master @ Oct. 22 2003,5:10)]Lol, Big J. Some nice points made.

Since I started reading these forums, my faith has not strengthened, it has weakened. The reason for this is that I have started thinking about things God-related a lot more rather than going along with things as I have done most times in the past. In my mind, after a lot of thinking, there is really no reason to believe that a god exists, although I admit that I haven't ruled out the possibility.

This is one of the most heartening post I have read on these boards. At last I witness someone with enough intellectual honesty to ask the big questions, to think and objectively evaluate the answers. That's all it takes.

To waste a life on an illusion is a crime.

Internet Infedels forum

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (Watcher @ Oct. 22 2003,5:23)]Hi Timor,

You're really digging deep now, aren't you? You can't read that and tell me that doesn't have Josephus' voice, tone and style all over it. Those last two are mocking Jesus. But anyway, you believe what you want. It's not widely believed to have been tampered with. You're just in denial. I assume the others were fake as well. *sigh*

I'm out for a bit, be back later tonight.

I am going to ask one thing. Please don't twist what I am saying.

A modern biography of Abraham Lincoln does not prove that he existed. Similarly, most of those you mention fall under the same problem...written much, much later.

Also, just because they mention the followers makes Jesus no more real than a mention of the followers of Kali make the "mother" real. The British encountered Indians who worshipped Kali, and wrote about them. Does that make Kali real?

As for Josephus...wow. As Timor said, that is a different version than the one usually quoted.

And, actually, the passages are widely believed to be forged.

So...what we are left with are:

1. Many references to followers (whether "Chrestus" is indeed wrong or not).

Understand, please, that a report that people are following the teachings of Jesus provides as much persuasion for me as reports of the followers of Kali convince you to follow her.

2. One reference that would be at the same time. Problem is, it has been discredited.

Another of my problems is that we are talking about someone who supposedly did all these amazing things, said all these profound things...yet, he's (at best) a footnote. The Romans were great record keepers, yet there is...nothing. No records of the crucifixion.

One argument I have heard is that they just didn't want to believe. Yet...we are supposed to believe that the Anti-Christ will do less and rule the world.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (Grand Master @ Oct. 22 2003,5:10)]Lol, Big J. Some nice points made.

Watcher, how do you propose that someone is supposed to come to believe in something that they can't believe in? Saying, "I believe in God because it's the safe bet" isn't real faith anyway.

Thank you.

Good luck...and feel free to PM if you want.

 

[timor]

Infidel Guy (www.infidelguy.com) had a show on the historicity of Jesus once. If anyone wants it, PM me, and we'll figure out a way for me to get it to you.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (Watcher @ Oct. 22 2003,5:20)]GM,

I believe in Jesus because He took my place on that cross. He was spit on, punched, slapped, humiliated, flogged until His back looked like hamburger, verbally assaulted, betrayed, endured the cruelest, slowest, most painful way to die, just for me. You cannot deny the Historical record. But allow me to let you in on a little secret. If you are looking for empirical, rational evidence that Jesus Christ is who He says He is, you're out of luck. If that was freely available, most of the whole world would believe. Faith comes by hearing and hearing through the Word of God. You have to walk out on a limb. God will not force you to worship Him (yet...as we all know, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess He is Lord). God wants us to chose Him.

You do have a choice. God freely gives you that right. I pray you make the right one.

Then why does he hide himself?
Please (if you don't want to take a stab at my 20 questions) tell me why you chose to believe in Jesus, rather than Shiva, Vishnu, Krishna ©, Mithra ©. Also, there is no argument that Mohammed walked the earth, so why not follow the prophet? (he never claimed to be the messiah and/or rise again...so don't say "because he's dead.")

© = crucified

 

[Guest]

Big J,
You have said it!
A Holy Bible does not prove there is GOd, and a New Testatment does not prove there is Jesus.
But there is way to establish a Proof for all to see: imitate Paul and then see what happens.
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]A modern biography of Abraham Lincoln does not prove that he existed.  Similarly, most of those you mention fall under the same problem...written much, much later.

You'll have to do better than that. Please produce irrefutable evidence that these four historical records are forgeries. You can't because they are genuine. The existence of the church today is evidence these things happened. Use your rational mind here that you hold so dear. Why would 12 apostels who were with Jesus, saw Him crucified and die, continue preaching a lie. This absolutely makes no sense whatsoever. All 12 (let's not even talk about all the Christians killed by Nero and after)? All 12, willingly martyr themselves and suffer needlessly preaching something they know in fact did not happen? Well if you believe that, I want to sell you some oceanfront property in Montana.

You see, the church itself is something you cannot overlook. It's evidence that stares you right in the face everyday. And you know what, it frightens you. Because you know deep down inside, this life isn't a 'free for all.' One day you will have to give an account for your life and if you don't have a relationship with Jesus, you will surely die as the punishment for sin commands.

You know that feeling that gently tugs at your heart every now and then. You know that whisper that says 'well what if they are right', 'what if Jesus is who He really says He is', 'there has to be more to this life than this, I feel it deep inside.' Well gentlemen, that is the Holy Spirit drawing you!

And if you tell me you don't feel it or have not then you deceive yourself. Everyone has felt this and will continue until they either surrender to Him, or walk away in defiance and refuse to listen anymore. Yes your heart can harden to the point where you will never be capable of accepting Salvation. We all fall somewhere in between the two extremes. You are either moving towards Jesus or away from Him.

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]Understand, please, that a report that people are following the teachings of Jesus provides as much persuasion for me as reports of the followers of Kali convince you to follow her.

Please understand that they were not God in the flesh; they did not atone for our sin; and they were not resurrected thus ovecoming death forever. That is the difference.

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]As for Josephus...wow.  As Timor said, that is a different version than the one usually quoted.

Here we go again...Regardless, every traslation I have ever seen conveys the same message. The fact is, it's in his "Testimonium Flavianum." This man hated Jesus. Josephus ridiculed Him in his record.

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]Another of my problems is that we are talking about someone who supposedly did all these amazing things, said all these profound things...yet, he's (at best) a footnote.  The Romans were great record keepers, yet there is...nothing.  No records of the crucifixion.  

And thereby validate His message to the world and give creedence to His ministry. You musn't forget, the Romans were concerned with keeping the already volatile Israel nation under control. Why on earth would Christ be recorded anymore than he already was when Israel was just a mere annexed Roman province. I've given you four extra biblical sources in which you deny their validity as well. They weren't even Christians so therefore, you claim the Christians some how changed the record. This reminds me of when the Jews asked Jesus for a sign to prove who He was. Would it have mattered anyway...no.

Rome didn't embrace Christianity until after the 1st century. The fact that He appears at all proves my point.

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]Please (if you don't want to take a stab at my 20 questions)

Have I missed something? What '20 questions' are you referring? If you wouldn't mind articulating them in a more direct fashion I'd be grateful. Thanks.

 

[Watcher]

I take it these are it?

Quote[/b] ]Right.  All the years I spent as a Christian was...what?

As I mentioned before, that's debatable. I'm not trying to belittle your experience, but just because you went to church or go to church does not mean you're a Christian. Let's be honest by saying the Bible teaches many will claim to know Christ and will be turned away.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord, 'will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is heaven. Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in you name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]With errors.

You have failed to produce one true error. Many claim variants, many claim contextual interpretative challenges; but not true errors. You have failed to prove my assertion and belief in inerrancy wrong. Here it is one more time.

I know the truth that has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. I affirm that inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the autographic text of Scripture, which in the providence of God can be ascertained from available manuscripts with great accuracy. I further affirm that copies and translations of Scripture are the Word of God to the extent that they faithfully represent the original. I deny that any essential element of the Christian faith is affected by the absence of the autographs. I further deny that this absence renders the assertion of Biblical inerrancy invalid or irrelevant (taken from "The Chicago Statement on Inerrancy").

Quote[/b] ]Please tell me how the Bible is right and the Koran, Book of Mormon, Vedas are all wrong.

They are wrong because they do not affirm Jesus Christ as Lord. Must cults 99 percent of the time divert from the Scripture on the Diety of Christ. This is exactly what you have listed above.

Quote[/b] ]Or he never existed.

Prove He never existed. I gave you extra Biblical sources, I gave you Scripture which has time and time again proved accurate and validated not only in Science but Archaeology as well. A great illustration of you would be Pharoah. It didn't matter what God did, Pharoah's heart never changed even when faced with the reality that he was against the one true God. Some people are just beyond redemption.

Quote[/b] ]Or I'll die and be dead forever.

Well you got one part right. We'll all surely die. But, what we'll be resurrected into is a different story. You'll either be resurrected into eternal life (heaven) or eternal death (hell).

Quote[/b] ]Exactly.  So if I'm wrong, and there is an Allah, I'll save a seat for you.

Well this is for sure, the Bible teaches you are wrong. Don't worry about saving a seat because I'll be in heaven with my Jesus.

Quote[/b] ]Please (seriously) share with us...where should I start looking?  The Bible doesn't count.

I did, and you pulled a Pharoah on me...

 

[Big J]

*sigh*
Simply put, none of the others were contemporaries of Jesus. They never saw the man, never heard him, nothing. Thus, they are not primary sources.

Josepheus
from http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm
Flavius Josephus: He was a Jewish historian who was born in 37 CE. In his book, Antiquities of the Jews, he described Jesus' as a wise man who was crucified by Pilate. Most historians believe that the paragraph in which he describes Jesus is partly or completely a forgery that was inserted into the text by an unknown Christian. The passage "appears out of context, thereby breaking the flow of the narrative." (Michael Martin, "The case against Christianity," Temple, (1991))
Josh McDowell, Don Stewart and other conservative Christians accept the passage as legitimate. (J. McDowell & D. Stewart, "Did Jesus really exist?," from "Answers to Tough Questions, at: http://members.aol.com/jcsaves7/didJesusreallyexist.htm)
Unlike certain people, I will show that there IS a disagreement.

Tacitus: was born AD 55. Jesus was gone by then.
Suctonius: wrote c. AD 120. Again, long after Jesus was gone.
Pliny: By your own statement, AD 110.

They were not contemporaries. They wrote of followers of Jesus. Are you saying that writing about followers validates the founder?

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] ]Have I missed something? What '20 questions' are you referring? If you wouldn't mind articulating them in a more direct fashion I'd be grateful. Thanks.

*sigh* The other thread. the "many questions" or whatever thread. Feel free to join in and spit on me there.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] ]As I mentioned before, that's debatable. I'm not trying to belittle your experience, but just because you went to church or go to church does not mean you're a Christian. Let's be honest by saying the Bible teaches many will claim to know Christ and will be turned away.

Fine.
What do I have to do to be a Christian. Seriously.
Belief? I believed.
Confession of belief? I did that.
Predestined? Not a clue.
I asked Jesus into my heart, asked him to be my personal saviour.
What more did I need to do?

I am sorry to inform you, I was saved.

 

[LionOfJudah]

one school of thought would say other wise. if you have turned your back then where you ever truely saved.

but thats another debate in it self.

If you say you where saved and have chosen to reject the Truth. then no matter what you do you are going to hell sorry.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] ]one school of thought would say other wise. if you have turned your back then where you ever truely saved.

Look, I understand what you are getting at.

If Osama bin Laden was born again, would you say that he was never a Muslim?

Quote[/b] ]but thats another debate in it self.

One that I would prefer not to get into.  I know what I believed then, and I know what I believe now.

If you believe that the sun literally rises in the sky and then you find out that it is an optical illusion caused by the earth's rotation, does that mean that you never believed?

Quote[/b] ]If you say you where saved and have chosen to reject the Truth. then no matter what you do you are going to hell sorry.

Well...yeah.  

  I realize that if you are right, I will be going to Hell.  And if you are wrong, you have lost nothing.  And if we are both wrong (yes, I know you know you aren't, but go with me here) either we are both going to Muslim Hell or we will both be reincarnated.

 

[CCGR]

or just take a dirt nap and we all just deal