Ask a Catholic about Catholisism

[Ultima Avatar]

You've never heard of St. Francis of Assissi Mrpop? Geez. He's the one who literally expresses "tell it to the birds." SUPPOSEDLY he approached a flock of birds and preached to them...though what kind of divine blessing some birds got from that before proceeding to peck worms out of the dirt, I have no clue. And I think two things of such a deed: 1. Pointless and vain or 2. Untrue.

As for Saint Catherine's almighty experience...no one but her witnessed it. I'm stigmatizing right now. Look see? Look, can't ya? Can't? Good, 'cause I ain't.

The Passover is actually some kind of father to our celebration of the Lord's Supper (call it Euchrist)...it was on the Passover when the thirteen did dine.

But Mrpop...I have this nagging question, when is Jesus being literal and when is Jesus being figurative in his gospel-spreading? And again, literality and figuaritivity with the REST of the Bible?
Was Jesus being literal when he meant take, eat of my flesh, or being figurative? Christ also obeyed the Law to its fullest...and even suggesting cannibalism = sacrilege = death. So was it figurative? Was it literal? Does it matter? Isn't treating it like this just making it some vain and empty gesture, a ritual with no life? Dead Christianity, I would surmise.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

When is he and when is he not being figurative? Well I guess you would just have to rely on the Holy Spirit to tell you. He told me it is figurative. Does it matter I guess in the end no. However my comment on this was mainly a joke.

 

[daszo24]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Oct. 09 2003,8:49)]

Quote[/b] (4t0p @ Oct. 09 2003,8:46)]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Oct. 09 2003,7:25)]No but you believe that when you take passover he turns into flesh do you not? The stigmata is what you think happens when one is so blessed they get to feel the pain of Yeshua am I wrong?

Passover is a Jewish celebration having to do with ancient Egypt. In the sacrament of Holy Communion we Catholics belief that the wafer becomes the Flesh of Christ and the wine the Blood of Christ (check the Bible for where we get that from k)

so yes you are wrong

Ummm oops! I ment communion sorry.
~EDIT~ Oh yes as far as Yeshua saying this is my flesh he ment that figurativly I believe.

Have you Ever read John chapter 6?

The beginning of John 6 narrates the multiplication of loaves. The next day, the people come again in John 6 seeking for more free food and miracles. In verse 29 Jesus says that the people must believe in Him. They ask Him how they can know that He is for sure from God for they wish to believe. They make a connection between when Moses gave thier fathers bread and when Jesus, just the day before, multiplied bread in front of their eyes. Jesus says that not only can he give physical bread, but he can give bread that "comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world."

He goes on to say (v 35) "I am the bread of life, He who comes to me shall not hunger...nor thirst." This got them talking (v 41) about how this can be. Can a man really be bread? So in verse 51, Jesus explains what on earth He means: " I am the living bread, which came down form heave; if any one eats of theis bread, he will live for ever; AND THE BREAD WHICH I SHALL GIVE FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD IS MY FLESH."

WHAT?!! Is this Jesus guy crazy?? Did He just say what I think He said? The Jews were thinking hte same thing: "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?(!)" So Jesus clarifies it further as to make sure there's no confusion (verse 53): Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life within you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in Him.

Alright, now this Jesus guy is REALLY off his rocker. He's gone way too far. We're not cannables, and the Old Law FORBIDS the consumption of flesh and blood! They Jews said (verse 60) "this is a hard saying, who can listen to it?" These Jews knew EXACTLY what Jesus meant, he wanted them to eat his flesh and drink his blood. Who could even hear this??! This was disgusting! And here they thought he was a prophet!

Now at this point, everyone thinks Jesus is crazy. However, since God is perfect, and Jesus is God, Jesus could never have lost his sanity even for an instance. Right here Jesus has the chance to say "you're misunderstanding me, I don't REALLY mean that you have to eat my flesh and blood to have eternal life." However, in verse 61, Jesus says to his disciples "Do you take offense at this? What if you were to see the Son of man ascending to where he was before? (would they believe then? Obviously Jesus did this later on)...The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Jesus here verifies that they understood him correctly, he was speaking litterally.

However, these were people of litte faith and John 6:66 says what happens to them: "After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him." Now that a great number of Jesus' followers left Him, He's ready to risk it all for this EXTREMELY CONTROVERSIAL teaching: Jesus asks his disciples "Will you also go away?" But Peter (asserting his leadership) says, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed and come to believe that you are the Holy One of God." This teaching was over Peter's head, but he knew that Jesus was God and that this must have been true.

It was during the last supper, then, that Jesus blessed the bread and said "This is my Body...this is my Blood." Was Jesus speaking figuratively? No. He gave the Apostles his very own Flesh and Blood that He shed on the cross. Were the appostles being cannables and were they breaking the old law? No. Remember that it is God who gave them the Law. Jesus is God and therefore had the ability to fulfill it. He did not degrade the law--it was still extremely immoral to eat another man--but Jesus is the Paschal Lamb. Just as the high priests of the Old Testament ate part of the lamb (consumation of the sacrifice was necessary for a sacrifice to be completed), so too the Apostles, the new priests, consumed the flesh and blood of the "Lamb who was slain."

Now what does Paul have to say about this? In 1 Corinthians 11: 23 he begins to speak of the Jesus' Body and Blood given to the apostles by Christ as the Last Supper. In verse 27 he says "whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the BODY and BLOOD of the Lord...For everyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgement upon himself." St. Paul obviously mentions that the bread and cup of the Lord is the Blood and Flesh of Christ Himself. Also, there would not be 'judgement' upon those who did not discern a symbol. Clearly, Paul is talking about the reality of Christ's Body, not merely a symbol.

So, the priesthood, through apostolic succession, has come through the Catholic Church throughout the ages and has continued to bring us Jesus Himself: Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. This is why Jesus will be with us till the end of the age...not just in presence, but in physical reality. That is why whenever I recieve the Holy Eucharist I can only say with St. Thomas "My Lord and my God!"

Jesus is speaking in these passages of John 6 very litterally. He means what He says otherwise He would clarify it. There are only two responses two this: One can say "this is a hard saying, who can listen to it?" Or one say "Lord, you have the words of eternal life and we have come to believe, and have come to know."

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Oct. 09 2003,7:49)]

Quote[/b] (4t0p @ Oct. 09 2003,8:46)]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Oct. 09 2003,7:25)]No but you believe that when you take passover he turns into flesh do you not? The stigmata is what you think happens when one is so blessed they get to feel the pain of Yeshua am I wrong?

Passover is a Jewish celebration having to do with ancient Egypt. In the sacrament of Holy Communion we Catholics belief that the wafer becomes the Flesh of Christ and the wine the Blood of Christ (check the Bible for where we get that from k)

so yes you are wrong

Ummm oops! I ment communion sorry.
~EDIT~ Oh yes as far as Yeshua saying this is my flesh he ment that figurativly I believe.

Aye...there is one of the big differences between Catholics and Protestants...C says that the last supper bread and wine literally turn into Jesus and P says that it is symbolic.

Did I say big difference? Well, only if you consider killing other people over it...

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (Big J @ Oct. 10 2003,8:44)]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Oct. 09 2003,7:49)]

Quote[/b] (4t0p @ Oct. 09 2003,8:46)]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Oct. 09 2003,7:25)]No but you believe that when you take passover he turns into flesh do you not? The stigmata is what you think happens when one is so blessed they get to feel the pain of Yeshua am I wrong?

Passover is a Jewish celebration having to do with ancient Egypt. In the sacrament of Holy Communion we Catholics belief that the wafer becomes the Flesh of Christ and the wine the Blood of Christ (check the Bible for where we get that from k)

so yes you are wrong

Ummm oops! I ment communion sorry.
~EDIT~ Oh yes as far as Yeshua saying this is my flesh he ment that figurativly I believe.

Aye...there is one of the big differences between Catholics and Protestants...C says that the last supper bread and wine literally turn into Jesus and P says that it is symbolic.

Did I say big difference? Well, only if you consider killing other people over it...

Which is why I want the Protestants to defend themselves against the Catholic cases of literal transubstantiation, such as the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano (google is your freind).

 

[timor]

"When Amsterdam (which means Miracle Town) was just a fishing village with a few huts, there was a Catholic who had the flu and was too sick to go to Mass. Well, this guy used to go to Mass everyday, and so the Priest was thoughtful enough to bring him a Host.

He 'communicates' (eats) the Host but his stomach is still so upset that he vomits it into the fireplace. Later that evening his wife starts a fire, and, wonder of wonders, there riding above the flames like a surfer on a wave is the Host, made whole again. They call the Priest and he is amazed and decides to take it back to the Church.

The next day the Host was gone from the Church, and guess what? It was flame surfing again. Remember it is only a little cracker but it was riding the flame without being burnt. The Priest comes and takes it back the Church.

Third Day, same thing.

So the Priest decides that there should be a big public Procession. Everyone in the district is informed of the situation and gets to see it, and then there is a major Procession. It makes the little fishing villiage famous. This was about in the eleventh Century. For almost five hundred years they have the Procession with the Same Host. Then the Reformation slams down hard and they destroy the Host. From then on they still had the Procession, what few Catholics survived the slaughters, but they began calling it the Silent Procession because they were forbidden by law to mention why they were marching."

There's one for ya.

 

[Guest]

Dear Big J,

  A lot hinges on whether the Eucharist is real or not.  You can see it for yourself.  The Prots don't have a Priesthood, because they don't need a Priesthood -- since the Bread and the Wine are only symbolic, they don't need an Anointed Priest to perform the Ceremony.  The Catholics do need to keep up the Apostolic Line and the Anoiting of a Priesthood simply to perpetuate the Ceremoney of the Eucharist.  As soon as the Eucharist becomes merely symbolic, the Church is destroyed.  Everything is built around that One Sacrament.  The Mass is the Eucharist.

But, besides Institutional Survival, there is also the Scriptural evidence.  Jesus was explicit in saying that unless they eat of His Body and drink of His Blood there would be no Eternal Life.  This was such a disgusting idea that most of the new Disciples that had come over from the recently deceased John the Baptist walked out of the banquet, along with many of Disciples of Jesus who had finally heard enough.  "Stop this ride and let me get off".  Jesus did not qualify his statement with "Wait, I am only being symbolic".  Then at the Last Supper we have the actual Sacrament presented.  Nothing about Symbolism.

Then we have the testimony of the Saints.  There were two Stigmatic Saints, Widlina and Anne Catherine Emmerich who were very miraculous during times when the Priests could be just as ignorant as everybody else.  Several times in their lifetimes their Priests decided to Test Them by trying to foist 'unconsecrated' Hosts on them.  Now, both Widlina and Anne Catherine had not eaten food for years -- they couldn't eat -- they vomited everything they were forced to eat.  the only thing their stomach would accept was the Eucharist.  Ergo the Test.  Well, as soon as the Priest walked in Widlina would simply break down and start crying -- with all her suffering she could not believe that even the Priests would start screwing with her head.  Her friends kept asking what was wrong and when she finally told them there was in inquiry and the Priest was severly disciplined by the Diocese.  With Anne Catherine Emmerich -- she was not so much a shy flower -- and she layed into such Priests for daring to insult the Sacrament and also tried to get them fired.  So, if it was only Symbolic, then why did these Saints discern such a huge Difference?  Well, an unconsecrated host is a little cracker, but a Consecrated Host is Christ.  If you have Spiritual Eyes you can clearly see the Difference, like night and day.

 

[CCGR]

I read a book from by a priest form the 1800's father Chiniqy I or something was his name, he was scared somehting silly when he accidently dropped the communion wafer and a rat ran off with our savior rendered helpless as a wafer. tragic

 

[timor]

rofl!

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Oct. 11 2003,10:43)]I read a book from by a priest form the 1800's father Chiniqy I or something was his name, he was scared somehting silly when he accidently dropped the communion wafer and a rat ran off with our savior rendered helpless as a wafer.  tragic

LOL

Timor...I liked your story too.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (Ultima Avatar @ Oct. 09 2003,8:53)]You've never heard of St. Francis of Assissi Mrpop? Geez. He's the one who literally expresses "tell it to the birds." SUPPOSEDLY he approached a flock of birds and preached to them...though what kind of divine blessing some birds got from that before proceeding to peck worms out of the dirt, I have no clue. And I think two things of such a deed: 1. Pointless and vain or 2. Untrue.

As for Saint Catherine's almighty experience...no one but her witnessed it. I'm stigmatizing right now. Look see? Look, can't ya? Can't? Good, 'cause I ain't.

The Passover is actually some kind of father to our celebration of the Lord's Supper (call it Euchrist)...it was on the Passover when the thirteen did dine.

But Mrpop...I have this nagging question, when is Jesus being literal and when is Jesus being figurative in his gospel-spreading? And again, literality and figuaritivity with the REST of the Bible?
Was Jesus being literal when he meant take, eat of my flesh, or being figurative? Christ also obeyed the Law to its fullest...and even suggesting cannibalism = sacrilege = death. So was it figurative? Was it literal? Does it matter? Isn't treating it like this just making it some vain and empty gesture, a ritual with no life? Dead Christianity, I would surmise.

Saint Anthony had a good one. he was preaching to the Cathari Heretics by the side of a lake when they all turned their backs on him. so he said, "Okay, I'll preach to the fish", and he turned around and summoned the fish. Every fish in the lake swam up to shore and stuck their little heads out of the water and listened to his sermon. When he was finished, simultaneously they all went back under. Great trick, huh?

he also had a trick with horses and donkeys. Everyone would tell Anthony that the Eucharist was nothing but bread and wine. So Anthony would bet them that even their stupid horse knew better. He would let them take their own horse or donkey and starve it for three days when they would meet in the town square, where the challenger would put down hey and grain for the horse, but Anthony would raise up a Chalice with the Eucharist over his head -- and in three different towns the Horse or Donkey would walk up to Anthony and drop down on its knees before the Eucharist. Nice trick, huh.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Oct. 11 2003,11:43)]I read a book from by a priest form the 1800's father Chiniqy I or something was his name, he was scared somehting silly when he accidently dropped the communion wafer and a rat ran off with our savior rendered helpless as a wafer.  tragic

Communion is made out of people!!

 

[LionOfJudah]

Saint Anthony sold his soul to the devil or was demon possed i would say.

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Oct. 13 2003,9:16)]Saint Anthony sold his soul to the devil or was demon possed i would say.

Why? And if so, why would he then preach about Jesus? That is like the Pharisees saying that Jesus cast out demons with the power of Satan!

 

[LionOfJudah]

What is the best way to decieve someone use the sacrotic method and youw ill find the answer your self instead of being spoon fed

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Oct. 13 2003,2:36)]What is the best way to decieve someone use the sacrotic method and youw ill find the answer your self instead of being spoon fed

hah, you talk of being spoon fed!

That question was not a "Please, wise Lion, teach me!" - it was a "How does that make any sense?". And still, your answer makes no sense. Seriously, you should just stay away from these boards until you're done PMSing.

edit --> BTW, my "Why?" was "Why do you think that?"

 

[timor]

btw Lion, you do have one plus - your sig

"Those that think they found truth have found emptyness, those that are still searching have found it, i am waiting for fullness to groak this"

You're the one who believes he has found truth....i am the one still searching for it...and there's no way you can deny that, either.

 

[LionOfJudah]

i never said i have the truth

if you would read the last part and read any sort of literature you would understand that

 

[Ultima Avatar]

Pansies one and all, please calm down.

Leo, do you have any hands-on documentation of what Anthony supposedly did (also, was he the one who got stuck on a transversal cross, or is this another Anthony?)? I would like to read some, if you don't mind. These stories all rock and great stuff like that...but is it true? I would find it doubtful if the rocks all of a sudden rolled over to the feet of any man minus Christ and listened to him preach (as if the rocks could do much with the gospel).

 

[timor]

Well Ultima, if they possessed enough faith, could not even a mountain be forced to "roll over"? (Serious question)