Wise up.

[SAGAN]

MaxX I can see your trying to start a fight here, why, I dont know.
I am listening to the discussion, but it would be one sided if I didn't question things such as contradiction, or question why you believe certain things with our without poof of them.

Your the only one here trying to start trouble with me, and your the kind of person that turnes me away from talking to other Christians.

Mr_Eon I know that man has lived with those creatures, but I reffure to ones more from the Jurassic or Cretaceous periods.

 

[mpty]

Mr Eon, I believe that... what you are looking for is a "Coelacanth".The link below is the first site on google that caught my eye:
One Ugly Brute.
Sorry about this brief side track

... I'm just a weird person who find fish interesting...

 

[Guest]

I'm going to have to agree with SAGAN because I feel in a very similar fashion to him that this site could use improvement, and if you are stirring up an argument, arguments make the world better as long as both sides are willing to lose ot tie, but if they both desire to win, then wars and fights will start.

 

[CCGR]

so this site needs more arguments? scratching head...

 

[Mr_Eon]

That's the very fish...

Proof of evolution, I'd say. So similar to the fish that went before, so similar to the fish that are now. But neither.

Anyhoo, that's my brief contribution, until I see a firm proposal for discussion. This has turned into unfocussed rambling a little too much for my taste.

Eon

 

[MaxX]

Fine, sagan, see it your way. After all, you're not the one who has had to put up with people repeatedly coming on this forum blasting christianity. It would have been nice if you would just accept our right to hold our views, instead of trying to destroy them (which is, oddly enough, something people like you think christians do, ahem...intolerance?)

 

[SAGAN]

MaxX, Not only do I have to defend my own beliefs daily on Buddhist chatrooms or forums. But I also have to constantly deal with it in real life. And who are the ones that do it? It is only Christians that have a problem with it, no one else.

 

[Kidan]

So because some people (and if you say they're Christians I can believe it) come onto a Budhist forum and attack the principles of Budhism, you thought it would be grand fun to do the same thing to a Christian forum?


What great Karma you're building.

 

[SAGAN]

Kidan, I thourght you would have been smart enough to know I'm not attacking anyones principles.
I came here to question, and find out what is so wonderful about being Christian, and I have provided questions that bother me about the belief. It would be pointless of me to question Christianity and then just sit back while people flood me with quotes from the Bible that mean absolutley nothing to me. I want to know what YOU people think of the Christian faith, without throwing Bible quotes at me, because those are useless to me. Because that dosen't tell me how you feel about the belief.
And because of the quotes you throw at me, I have had to question them, because questions came to mind when you posted them.

I see, that you are all getting hostile, something that I have noticed from other Christian's when I refuse to be converted, or question their faith when they question mine.
So prehaps I will leave this post as it is, and just stop replying, because I have learned nothing, except that you can't take in, what you dish out. And that your helpful at first, but when one turnes hostile, the rest seem to follow.

If you can tell me what you think of Christianity without throwing quotes at me, and what YOU do in your day to day life, that makes you a Christian, without throwing quotes at me. Then you would have shown me somthing no other Christian's have been able to show.

 

[Kidan]

I know you are not attacking principles, and looking back on the posts of tihs topics, I have noticed that while there have been a couple direct attacks on the veracity of Christianity, for the most part you have handled yourself with decorum and moderation.  I apologize for my snide comment, but with my son being sick I haven't sleep much (This is not an excuse, there is no excuse, I am merely trying to explain an underlying causation for my actions so that you may understand), and am starting to get the new people confused.  Again my apologies.


Also notice in my posts I rarely use scriptures unless we are discussing certain scriptures (such as my reply to your questions on Biblical contradictions, or a the discussion on the Christ story itself.) or Biblical precepts


As for what I do in my day to day life that makes me a Christian it's quite simple

1) I have faith the Christ is my saviour, who died for my sin and was raised from the dead three days later, and I confess this and place Him as Lord of my life.
2) I pray and read my Bible.  PRaise Him in all things
3) I Try to love everyone equally all the time (I can admit this one gets hard quite often)
4) I try to live my life as close to Christ's as possible (again, this is one that is quite hard)

And that is in order of importance.  For without number 1, the rest of those things are meaningless and then I would be sentenced to Hell, for me and Christ would not know each other at the judgement., and to have number 1 without the other 3 means my faith is dead and that would mean I truly don't have number 1

What I think of Christianity
I believe that following Christ is the only way to acheive Heaven, and that without Christ we are doomed to be judged and sent to Hell. I believe that many people have done great wrongs in the name of Christianity, but many people have done great rights (Christian org. are the world's largest charitable orginazations).

Christianity is slightly to big to describe in general. Ask specific questions (such as the day to day one) and I'll answer them without Bible quotes (provided they are not about Biblical precepts)

 

[mpty]

I think the Christian faith is well, true. People are using the Bible so much because ... uh... see what Kidan said, and well, it is the basis of Christianity. Without God's Word, there are many facets of Christianity that could be readily crushed... Unless God has another way...<-- no one can fathom the mind of The Almighty... I have no clue. The truths contained in the Bible are well, hard to ignore and use in discussion of: Biblical contradictions, etc. I would even throw out a verse for you about the Bible and it's usage, but well, you said it's totally useless to you and such, so I won't.

 

[Mr_Eon]

Don't take what people do on chat rooms to be indicative of their religion. Reading this board we have a whole host of abuses inflicted on those of other religions. For example.

Atheists burn down Christian churches.
Christians chalk hateful grafiti on ancient Pagan sites.
Pagans derail Christian participation in interfaith conferences

It goes on and on. It says so much about human nature, but #### all about religion.

Eon

 

[SAGAN]

hmm, thats true Mr_Eon.

And thank you Kidan and mpty for answering my questions.

 

[Ultima Avatar]

Needless to mention my dear, uh, Buddhist SAGAN, is that Buddha's the ONLY one to have received enlightenment. Buddhists remove themselves from pain: Christ put himself right into its midst and took it on himself.
What guy would you rather follow? One that ignores the pain or one that dies so that you won't have to feel it?
Did you mention, also, that the great man who avoided sin also ditched both wife and kids to find his place in nirvana? That was really umm, "good" of him. "Abandon wife and kids, or be the only one to experience nirvana? Tough choice..."

Eon, where'd you get that interesting stuff? Atheists burn down Christian churches? Christians tag their turf? Christians die in derailing incidents?
Interesting. We concentrate too much on that word, "religion" and don't study what it IS that makes up religion. Just ball it all together. Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Catholicism, Wiccanism, et cetera: religion. I know of a Wiccan who, uh, "has the power to destroy the world with one word if" she "should so desire."
Well....do it. "Oh no no no. Wiccans don't do bad things like that. We help out." "Then why even possess such knowledge?" "Because. I'm a witch." Mmm. Influencing arguments.
That's part of "religion" too, and when you do that, you present a very garbled interpretation as to what "religion" is. "Jesus Christ became a witch at the age of 25, then walked around claiming he was Satan and had the power of God on his side, met up wtih an old pal from 600 years ago named Sid who had time-traveled through the state of nirvana to present day Bethlehem and had given a present to the boy Jesus. Then Jesus died and resurrected by the power of his witchcraft, and sent Buddha home to heaven."
That's something like you get with the mixing of everything into "religion."

 

[SAGAN]

Ultima Avatar, it's probably best that you don't talk about something you dont know about.
Buddha was not the only one to recieve enlightenment. There is also Buddha Chenrezig, Buddha Mahakala, Buddha Tara, Buddha Manjushri.. and the list goes on, not to mention a number of Buddhist Monks in this world living, that are enlightened.

You say that Buddha "ditched" his family, it's interesting how you can seem to make something sound horrible when that was not the case at all. He was a prince, who saw suffering of other people in the world, and wondered what caused that suffering. And how to prevent that suffering, he left his kingdom to discover these things.

Quote[/b] ]What guy would you rather follow? One that ignores the pain or one that dies so that you won't have to feel it?

Please, before you speak anymore, actually research what your trying to argue, Buddhist's and Buddha himself did not ignore pain. No one ignores pain, there comes a point in our own development where we have no reason to feel pain, I dont feel pain. Do you feel pain? Since being Christian have you ever felt pain? I know I did, I dont anymore now that I am Buddhist, and realise there is no need for me to feel such things as jealousy, or envy.

Quote[/b] ]"Because. I'm a witch." Mmm. Influencing arguments.
That's part of "religion" too, and when you do that, you present a very garbled interpretation as to what "religion" is. "Jesus Christ became a witch at the age of 25, then walked around claiming he was Satan and had the power of God on his side, met up wtih an old pal from 600 years ago named Sid who had time-traveled through the state of nirvana to present day Bethlehem and had given a present to the boy Jesus. Then Jesus died and resurrected by the power of his witchcraft, and sent Buddha home to heaven."

Once again, you just don't research anything, because everything you've stated is totally wrong. Buddha lived and died hundreds of years before Jesus was born. And you just arent understanding Wiccan at all.

Please, for everyones benefit, research what you are trying to argue before you try to fire up an argument.

 

[Ultima Avatar]

Ahh. A challenge. A worthy challenge, at that.
Excellent reply my friend SAGAN. Mind if I call you Carl to simplify things?
What is this enlightenment you speak of? Have you attained it? Or do you take it with a grain of salt? Or do you blindly trust these monks that have attained it, and the words of men long dead who claim to have attained it? But Buddha himself, THE Buddha, at that, is the ONLY one to have received TRUE enlightenment. And as for what that is, his followers can only guess: total spiritual bliss. And as for that, who knows?

He was...a prince. Uh-huh.
Question: does abandoning your role as a leader to find the cause of a plague to your country add to your status or negate it? He LEFT to find something he placed himself away from: pain. Buddha has done nothing to ease it except to tell you to remove yourself from it.
Which is cool if you're a coward and all.
Not that you are, Carl. But still: what point is it to find something only to keep yourself away from it? Buddha was selfishly giving: he taught others to be the same: stay away and take not a side: the truth and goodness will right its own course without you. Pain and evil shall find themselves conquered, without you.

And, uh, I guess you don't know my posts that well: I speak sarcastically often and I write the same at times. That was one of them. Dude. Did you even read the part about time travel? I was being totally bogus. What I was saying is that's the trouble you get when you call "religion" everything spiritual. You get a mess like that. Jesus Christ a Satanist Witch God who buddied up with a time-traveling Chinese runaway enlightenmentist.
I was being sarcastic.
Dang. I thought anyone'd see through it. Sorry. I'll be sure to denote a joke and sarcasm and cynicism in the future.

 

[SAGAN]

Enlightenment is bliss, and seeing what the world and universe really is. Buddha was not the only one to reach enlightenment, as I said, there are other Buddha's, he was not the first, and he was not the last. He was simply the only one to come back and teach us of it.

Wether enlightenment exists or not, it dosen't matter. We choose to believe these monks or not. If we dont believe them, they understand that, and can't expect us too.
I could say the same thing about Heaven, or God, that you have blind faith that those things exist, and that Jesus' followers can only "guess" what Heaven is like.

Buddha never abandoned his kingdom, there were others to take the throne. Did Jesus abandon his family when he left them to study other religeons and preach his word? Did Buddha then abandon his family when he left to help stop others suffering, and to teach others how to as well?

Jesus has been put up so high in faith, that he is unreachable. Buddha, made himself equal to all people, he tells us, that the stage in our life that we are at now, he was once at. And that anyone can get where he is.
We dont need to believe in enlightenment to be Buddhist, it's the teachings that make us compassionate and loving to all people that make us better people.
I have known of Chirstian's in the military, but not of a Buddhist, if a Buddhist is compassionate enough not to join a force that can hurt people, why can't a Christian?

Buddha does not teach us to neglegt pain, if we realise there is no need to feel it, then we don't feel it. How does a Christian deal with pain?

 

[Kidan]

Quote[/b] ]Jesus has been put up so high in faith, that he is unreachable

Thiis is false.  Jesus took human form that all could reach God through his sacrifice.  Jesus is our high preist, standing at the right hand of God interceding for us.  He is not 'unreachable'  He's our pastor.

Quote[/b] ]I have known of Chirstian's in the military, but not of a Buddhist, if a Buddhist is compassionate enough not to join a force that can hurt people, why can't a Christian?

 Hmm.. so just because a Christian is willing to lay himself on the line in the protection of others he is not compassionate?  I know a number of Christians in the military and as police officers.  They are compassionate.  They are throwing themselves into the frontlines to protect me and mine.  Is it possible that they might hurt somoene? Of course.  We all hurt someone somehow at sometime.  What is important is that they are willing to be hurt, so that I (who is not, nor never have I been in the military or police force ) am protected from being hurt.  Your signature says

Quote[/b] ]"Only the brave, can be non-violent."

While true in some cases, it is utterly false in all others.  Christianity teaches pascifism on a persnal level.  I will not fight to protect myself.  but on a communal/national level it does not.  I should fight to protect my family/neighbors/country.  Only a fool would be totally non-violent, because there is always someone else who will do violence, if not against you, then against those you love, or even those you don't.  I would fight for anyone, save myself.  That is the meaning of bravery, that I put my own life in submission to the protection of others.   And that is what those Christians (and any others who join these services) who join the military or a police force are doing.  Laying their lives out on the line to protect you, so you can hide behind your quote.  They are out protecting you so you can deride them for their 'lack of compassion' just because they feel called to protect you.

As for how does a Christian deal with pain?  Depends on what type of pain you are talking about. Physical, i prefer advil, while my wife likes tylenol.  but a mental pain.  I give it to the Lord, pray over it, and dismiss it.  for if I could change it, I would have,  if the Lord wants it changed, He will.  Either way, I go on for what is, is.

 

[Mr_Eon]

Interestingly enough, in the Tokugawa Shogunate the dominant religion was Zen Buddhism. If you want military buddhists, then will the Samurai do?

Ultima - regarding your Wiccan "friend". She does NOT have the power to "end the world with a single word". Wiccans shape and channel the power of the natural world and its spirits in order to achieve wider goals. The various Gods went to a LOT of trouble to create this world, and I rather doubt that ANY of them would lend a Wiccan power to cause it to end. Your friend is somewhat in error - or else you haven't been listening to her properly.

Regarding which sort of person I'd rather follow - putting it in militaristic terms, I'd rather follow the Field Marshal who's been promoted up from Private than the Kings son who slumming it for a bit with the common soldier. Call me picky, but I hate a tourist.


Eon

 

[SAGAN]

Mr_Eon, Zen Buddhism dose not really relate to the most commonly studied buddhism, I was refurring to Mahayana Buddhism, but I didn't specify it, so i'll give you that.

I'm sorry Kidan, but there are no "exclusions" in hurting and killing people. There is no "killing for a good cause" such as protecting your family, although anyone would put asside religeon to protect their family, even I would. There are no exclusions to it. If a man steals a loaf of bread to feed his starving family, it is still stealing, and it is still punishable, and it is still against the law.
Killing and hurting people, there are no exclusions. If you kill someone for a good reason, or a bad reason, you are still killing someone in God's eyes, and you are still commiting sin because of it, you are killing his own children. You cannot make exclusions to these things, it's then, that everything begins to fall to the waist side. If you can exclude this, then why not that, or that. etc...
If you follow a path, you have to follow it properly, or not at all.