Why I left the guild

[whispurr]

Hello friends. As some of you know, I quit the guild the other day. What very few of you probably know or understand is why I quit.

I wasn't even able to explain myself very well at the time because the computer I was using (which has now been returned to the store) wasn't handling GW well at all. The lag was horrific and the messages were flying by while I could only type a letter a second.

For those of you that weren't there, what happened is that someone in the alliance, I don't even know who, said the word "suck." They got asked by a moderator to not say the word.

This really bothered me and it wasn't the first time it had happened. Why did it bother me?

Well, first of all "suck" is not a swear word by any stretch of the imagination. We suck on candy. Suck through a straw. Suck in air. To ask someone to not say "suck" is utterly ridiculous.

Secondly, the moderator in question is violating at least two of the TOS of GW. You can't have someone who is violating rules on a regular basis telling other people to follow the rules. That is called hypocrisy.

Thirdly, the reason I was given for not allowing people to say "suck" was that we have kids playing the game, or parents may have kids viewing the screen while they play. Now, you have to be 13 to play GW according to the TOS, so if we have "kids" playing (and we do - including said moderators kid), and we call ourselves a Christian guild, we need to fix that and not be breaking rules. Otherwise, what kind of witness are we presenting? And if parents are playing where their kids can see the screen, they obviously feel their children are old enough to handle it.

Fourthly, GW has a chat filter for people who are very sensitive. If you can't handle seeing words like "suck," which I understand GW filters, then turn on the filter. You can't expect everyone else to modify their behavior to suit your needs when it comes to disputable matters (meaning things that aren't clearly sin.)

Fifthly, I was also told that anything that GW sensors is not allowed in chat. I don't know what all GW sensors, but I do know that I wasn't allowed to name a character Tumble Weed. I hate to think how many words are sensored because they are offensive in other countries.

Sixthly, if you need to guard your mind against such relatively innocent words, then playing a game with scantily clad women and violent killing is probably also not age/spiritually appropriate.

And now, here is the main reason I left.

The thing I have seen way too much of in the Christian community, and the thing I have seen non-stop in SoE is a need to APPEAR to be holy. I believe this is blatantly unbiblical. We should be real with each other. I should not have to feel like I need to pretend to be something I'm not to fit in with a community.

We should be concerned with the heart, not what's on the surface. What does it matter if someone says suck? Is it not what is in their heart that matters? Should we not, as a community of Christians, embrace them for who they are faults and all?

If we go around correcting every little fault we see in each other, we will just shut down and not be open. We won't be ourselves. The person that was chastised for saying suck, will he or she feel like they can bring themselves, sins and all to the group and be accepted? When something as small as the word "suck" was pounced on and deemed unacceptable?

What if we have people with *real* flaws in the group that saw that exchange? Will they feel like it's a safe place to open up? Will they feel like it's ok to come "as they are?"

I know while I was being bombarded with messages and I was unable to type, I was being given false information about what is supposedly in the Bible. I will tell you this: Jesus would not be allowed in this guild under the current rules. When he called people "vipers" and "dogs," those were the worst insults one could use in the day and locale. Those words were about as offensive as it got, and that is why he used them.

I have no intention of returning to the guild. This is the second time I have left the guild for the same character flaw I see in it. I wasn't looking for a guild of religious people who were concerned about looking good. I was looking for a group of Christians who were concerned with *being* holy. I'm not saying that all of you fall into the first category, in fact I have met some very wonderful people here. I just can't abide by the overall attitude of the guild "management."

I do wish you well. I just didn't want it to look like I had a tantrum and stomped out of the guild without giving it any thought. It wasn't the first time the situation had happened and I would have said more at the time had I been able to.

Since I don't come to the forums (I just came here to post this, it's probably only my second or third post here in in as many years,) feel free to respond to me in game.

God bless,
Teresa
aka Clara Bingham

 

[DZwart]

Clara,

As you have stated, you probably won't be back to read my reply, but I'd like to make it for the sake of everyone else reading this. However, I just stopped by the computer for a few spare moments this afternoon and would like to take the time to thoughtfully and fully reply to your post. Since I do not have more time at this moment, I am temporarily closing this thread until I have time to come back give an appropriate reply.

As leader of the guild and alliance, I feel that I should be offering my stance first since your problem was primarily with the direction that I gave to the SoE/SOE officers on how to handle the use of the word "Suck" in game.

Thank you,
Derk

 

[DZwart]

For those of you that weren't there, what happened is that someone in the alliance, I don't even know who, said the word "suck." They got asked by a moderator to not say the word.

This really bothered me and it wasn't the first time it had happened. Why did it bother me?

Well, first of all "suck" is not a swear word by any stretch of the imagination. We suck on candy. Suck through a straw. Suck in air. To ask someone to not say "suck" is utterly ridiculous.

...

Fourthly, GW has a chat filter for people who are very sensitive. If you can't handle seeing words like "suck," which I understand GW filters, then turn on the filter. You can't expect everyone else to modify their behavior to suit your needs when it comes to disputable matters (meaning things that aren't clearly sin.)

Fifthly, I was also told that anything that GW sensors is not allowed in chat. I don't know what all GW sensors, but I do know that I wasn't allowed to name a character Tumble Weed. I hate to think how many words are sensored because they are offensive in other countries.

I personally agree on what you say about the word “suck” in that I don’t feel that it is explicitly swearing. The main reason we ask that people not to use it is that when the in-game filter is set to maximum, it is filtered, replaced by “----“. My feeling is that this is as disruptive as any other word that would trigger the filter. Because it is filtered, I ask that all members of the guild and alliance not use it to avoid any disruption it may cause.

Additionally, just because you or I do not find a particular word offensive, does not mean that someone else might not find it offensive. The fact that it is filtered meant that the secular organization who created this game (ArenaNet) decided to block this word for whatever un-shared reason they had. If this secular organization decided to filter this word, we should respect that as well. This is one of the ways we can share God's love by offering this respect to others as well as each other.

Secondly, the moderator in question is violating at least two of the TOS of GW. You can't have someone who is violating rules on a regular basis telling other people to follow the rules. That is called hypocrisy.

By your logic, no police officer who has ever driven above the speed limit should ever pull any one over and issue a ticket for speeding. The fact is that there is always someone who as been put into a position of authority over others whether it is police or officers in the in-game guild. That is the way of the world. Jesus himself told people to submit to the authority of those over them (James 22: 15-22).

The leaders of this guild have all been selected by the current leadership to be those with a heart to serve the greater good of the group rather than those seeking power over others.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23 (NIV)

None of the officers in this guild, or in the alliance, for that matter, would state that they are perfect and free from sin. Only one person could ever claim that. Fortunately, the Grace God has extended to us does not require anyone to be perfect.

Thirdly, the reason I was given for not allowing people to say "suck" was that we have kids playing the game, or parents may have kids viewing the screen while they play. Now, you have to be 13 to play GW according to the TOS, so if we have "kids" playing (and we do - including said moderators kid), and we call ourselves a Christian guild, we need to fix that and not be breaking rules. Otherwise, what kind of witness are we presenting? And if parents are playing where their kids can see the screen, they obviously feel their children are old enough to handle it.

…

Sixthly, if you need to guard your mind against such relatively innocent words, then playing a game with scantily clad women and violent killing is probably also not age/spiritually appropriate.

There are several reasons for asking our members not to use profanity (including less drastic filtered words). One is for the “kids” playing. Yes the requirement by GW is 13 years. People 13-17 years ARE children. Some of these younger members are quite mature, but are children, none the less.

Second, and a much more significant reason, in my opinion, is that many of us, including myself, belonged to other guilds before joining this organization. Those groups may, and in my case, did not have any restrictions on language used in guild or alliance chat. I personally was not comfortable being around this inappropriate language despite being able to handle it, like the scantily clad women and violence. This was a reason leading to my decision to leave that group. When I joined [SoE], it was a refuge from a world who didn’t care that I didn’t want to see that language.

And now, here is the main reason I left.

The thing I have seen way too much of in the Christian community, and the thing I have seen non-stop in SoE is a need to APPEAR to be holy. I believe this is blatantly unbiblical. We should be real with each other. I should not have to feel like I need to pretend to be something I'm not to fit in with a community.

We should be concerned with the heart, not what's on the surface. What does it matter if someone says suck? Is it not what is in their heart that matters? Should we not, as a community of Christians, embrace them for who they are faults and all?

If we go around correcting every little fault we see in each other, we will just shut down and not be open. We won't be ourselves. The person that was chastised for saying suck, will he or she feel like they can bring themselves, sins and all to the group and be accepted? When something as small as the word "suck" was pounced on and deemed unacceptable?

What if we have people with *real* flaws in the group that saw that exchange? Will they feel like it's a safe place to open up? Will they feel like it's ok to come "as they are?"

I’m sorry that you feel that you have to pretend to be something you are not around us. This is not my intent or the intent of any of the officers in setting these guidelines and enforcing them. I believe that I have shared my arguments for why we have those guidelines sufficiently above.

The officers are in the middle of a discussion revisiting how we feel the best way to handle the 4 most frequently used objectionable words in guild/alliance chat. While we agree that what is in the heart matters, we want to maintain a safe, comfortable environment for all. If you, or anyone else here, has any suggestions to make on this topic, please feel free to post them, the other officers and myself are willing to take any constructive criticism anyone has to give.

Please also know that short of blatant, constant repeating of an objectionable word for the sole intent of upsetting other members, no record is kept of any of these corrections. I, nor any of the officers, enjoy policing chat channels, but we serve (yes SERVE) this guild to try to make it a better place for ALL members.

As for “*real* flaws”, alliance or guild chat would never be a place where I would expect anyone to open up. That is something that would happen in a small group or one-on-one environment. I have had several members come to me with personal concerns or problems and am honored that they trusted me with these issues to discuss them. I will take this as a reminder that we need to, as a guild and alliance, make a renewed effort to encourage our members to interact in order to develop those relationships that will allow us to open up to each-other.

I know while I was being bombarded with messages and I was unable to type, I was being given false information about what is supposedly in the Bible. I will tell you this: Jesus would not be allowed in this guild under the current rules. When he called people "vipers" and "dogs," those were the worst insults one could use in the day and locale. Those words were about as offensive as it got, and that is why he used them.

I was not privy to any information given to you at that time, so I cannot reply to any of that.

When Jesus spoke to the Pharisees in Matthew 12:34, he did call them a “brood of vipers”, not “ you !#@$ %^&* !@%^$#” (random string of symbols not intended to represent any real words). I don’t know if there was crude language in the Hebrew language in the time of Christ, but would assume that there was. Jesus chose an insulting metaphor rather than crude slang or profanity. Ultimately, it is my opinion that most people who resort to profanity do so only when they can’t come up with a better way to express themselves.

I have no intention of returning to the guild. This is the second time I have left the guild for the same character flaw I see in it. I wasn't looking for a guild of religious people who were concerned about looking good. I was looking for a group of Christians who were concerned with *being* holy. I'm not saying that all of you fall into the first category, in fact I have met some very wonderful people here. I just can't abide by the overall attitude of the guild "management."

I do wish you well. I just didn't want it to look like I had a tantrum and stomped out of the guild without giving it any thought. It wasn't the first time the situation had happened and I would have said more at the time had I been able to.

Since I don't come to the forums (I just came here to post this, it's probably only my second or third post here in in as many years,) feel free to respond to me in game.

God bless,
Teresa
aka Clara Bingham

I will respect your decision on this matter and am sorry that you feel that is your only course of action. I would hope that you would at least read my replies. I will continue to respond and take any suggestions, comments or criticisms you have as long as they continue to be offered in the civil manner you have done here.

May the Peace of Christ be with you in your journey wherever it may take you.

Derk

 

[whispurr]

By your logic, no police officer who has ever driven above the speed limit should ever pull any one over and issue a ticket for speeding. The fact is that there is always someone who as been put into a position of authority over others whether it is police or officers in the in-game guild. That is the way of the world. Jesus himself told people to submit to the authority of those over them (James 22: 15-22).

The leaders of this guild have all been selected by the current leadership to be those with a heart to serve the greater good of the group rather than those seeking power over others.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23 (NIV)

None of the officers in this guild, or in the alliance, for that matter, would state that they are perfect and free from sin. Only one person could ever claim that. Fortunately, the Grace God has extended to us does not require anyone to be perfect.

Ok, first off, I can't find a way to delete my account here. Is that something you have to do for me? I don't want to be a member here and I don't want to receive e-mail notifications to this thread. I really just want to be done with this.

But...

What you said is ridiculous.

The situation you have with the moderator(s) in question is a situation where they are CURRENTLY and CONSTANTLY breaking the TOS. The example you gave of the police officer is an example of one mistake. Yes we all sin, no, we don't all sin deliberately and blatantly. This is what the Bible is referring to when it talks about taking the log out of your own eye before worrying about the speck in another's. You cannot have people in a position of power when they are currently and deliberately breaking rules. You know they are breaking the TOS, they know they are breaking the TOS. How can you (or they for that matter) put them in the position of moderator knowing they are willing to sit there, breaking rules while they do it, and tell other people not to break rules?

Do you not understand the definition of hypocrisy?

Hypocrisy is not "don't do as I did" which is what you have given in your example of the police officer. It's "don't do what I'm doing" which is exactly what your mods are telling people. They are breaking rules and telling other people not to break rules.

I don't understand how you and the other mods can NOT get this.

But as I've pointed out, this is only one of my issues with this guild. This guild is simply not what I'm looking for in a community of Christians. It's too religious and not enough godly. I'm sure it's a fine guild, it's just not the place for me.

The more time I spend in communities like this, the more difficult I find my walk with God becoming. For me, this guild has become an anti-witness. I needed to get out fast before more damage was done to me spiritually. I've been a Christian for 42 years and I'm under spiritual attack big time right now... having said that, can you please do whatever it takes to get my account deleted from here expediently?

Teresa

 

[Jawsofwar]

How can you get so angry over a moderator telling someone that "suck" is a bad word? I have said "dang it" a few times and a moderator would tell me to not say that word. I just stop saying "dang". We all come from different backgrounds. We just need to learn to get along. And I don't get what you are talking about with the "holy" attitude. I do hope with whatever you are going through personally, that God will give you peace.

 

[techwhosaysnee]

Teresa tried to edit this as one line in particular made the comment sound a lot more hostile than she meant to. In particular the 'ridiculous' part.

Ok, first off, I can't find a way to delete my account here. Is that something you have to do for me? I don't want to be a member here and I don't want to receive e-mail notifications to this thread. I really just want to be done with this.

But...

What you said is ridiculous.

The situation you have with the moderator(s) in question is a situation where they are CURRENTLY and CONSTANTLY breaking the TOS. The example you gave of the police officer is an example of one mistake. Yes we all sin, no, we don't all sin deliberately and blatantly. This is what the Bible is referring to when it talks about taking the log out of your own eye before worrying about the speck in another's. You cannot have people in a position of power when they are currently and deliberately breaking rules. You know they are breaking the TOS, they know they are breaking the TOS. How can you (or they for that matter) put them in the position of moderator knowing they are willing to sit there, breaking rules while they do it, and tell other people not to break rules?

Do you not understand the definition of hypocrisy?

Hypocrisy is not "don't do as I did" which is what you have given in your example of the police officer. It's "don't do what I'm doing" which is exactly what your mods are telling people. They are breaking rules and telling other people not to break rules.

I don't understand how you and the other mods can NOT get this.

But as I've pointed out, this is only one of my issues with this guild. This guild is simply not what I'm looking for in a community of Christians. It's too religious and not enough godly. I'm sure it's a fine guild, it's just not the place for me.

The more time I spend in communities like this, the more difficult I find my walk with God becoming. For me, this guild has become an anti-witness. I needed to get out fast before more damage was done to me spiritually. I've been a Christian for 42 years and I'm under spiritual attack big time right now... having said that, can you please do whatever it takes to get my account deleted from here expediently?

Teresa

 

[techwhosaysnee]

It's not about the word. Had this "violation" been addressed in a different way that was less confrontational and abrasive it would have been a completely different story. And even short of that, had this not been a repeated conversation over the entire time we've been here it wouldn't have been as outrageous.

The problem that Teresa is so sensitive to isn't restricted to that word, that person, or even this guild... but the Church as a whole. People well so abrasively jump on one sort of sin in the name of "not offending people" and then they will be indignant at the suggestion that their own zeal might be offensive They'll publicly call people out on minor violations, and completely disregard the own plank in their eye.

It's a funny topic, that of offending people. I've had a lot of non-believer friends, and not one of them was or would have ever been offended by a Christian who said the word that started this whole silly situation. But they are constantly offended by hypocrisy, and that in all the things covered in the gospels is the thing that drove Jesus himself to wrath and "strong language." How can we draw people to Christ if we are so busy pushing them away?

So no, that isn't the whole issue she or I have with the topic. I was writing someone an IM here last night, and looking through my history, I found a short record of the people I have either rebuked or consoled privately in guild hi jinx like this. People get very offensive when they're sure their opinion is the only on that is right.

Lastly, I just want to clarify.... this had been a repeated topic. Teresa did not just simply run out because someone was told not to say something. The topic in general, and especially with the people involved had been an ongoing issue on several levels. We've both seen it, tired to address it civilly, and even argued about it considerably more patiently than happened this time. Since it is an ongoing, repetitive, and seemingly unfixable issue here, it's just best to find a place that isn't quite so spiritually offensive.

I could say more to explain why this happened to make it more clear that it in fact was not about *that* word... but it could only come across as an attack to certain individuals, and that also is not the problem. There is a difference between faithfulness and religiousness though, and crossing it is dangerous. It may make it easy to feel righteous to ourselves, but it is horribly abrasive to anyone around us, and it is not what we are called to do by being in the world and not of the world.

How can you get so angry over a moderator telling someone that "suck" is a bad word? I have said "dang it" a few times and a moderator would tell me to not say that word. I just stop saying "dang". We all come from different backgrounds. We just need to learn to get along. And I don't get what you are talking about with the "holy" attitude. I do hope with whatever you are going through personally, that God will give you peace.

 

[bigfuz]

I am new here, and generally don't know anybody , but there are two things that stood out in reading this to me.

First, I think Teresa is making/made the right decision to move on. If this guild (or anything for that matter, after praying about it) is conflicting with your personal walk with Jesus Christ, by all means, you should leave!

Second, is the quote below.

The more time I spend in communities like this, the more difficult I find my walk with God becoming. For me, this guild has become an anti-witness. I needed to get out fast before more damage was done to me spiritually. I've been a Christian for 42 years and I'm under spiritual attack big time right now...

I've seen a lot of posts where someone has asked for prayer. In this case, it is not asked for explicitly, but based on the last comment, I will pray for you!

Also, not sure if this helps, but in my time, I have been let down by many groups, people and person's...Christian and Non-. That being said, I have never been let down by Jesus, and I never will be. Even during the tough times! He's the only one that has filled my needs. I've found if I can focus on that, I can deal with the rest. (though it's easier said than done )

Take Care, Teresa!

 

[techwhosaysnee]

Thank you.

I'll pass that along to her!

I am new here, and generally don't know anybody , but there are two things that stood out in reading this to me.

First, I think Teresa is making/made the right decision to move on. If this guild (or anything for that matter, after praying about it) is conflicting with your personal walk with Jesus Christ, by all means, you should leave!

Second, is the quote below.



I've seen a lot of posts where someone has asked for prayer. In this case, it is not asked for explicitly, but based on the last comment, I will pray for you!

Also, not sure if this helps, but in my time, I have been let down by many groups, people and person's...Christian and Non-. That being said, I have never been let down by Jesus, and I never will be. Even during the tough times! He's the only one that has filled my needs. I've found if I can focus on that, I can deal with the rest. (though it's easier said than done )

Take Care, Teresa!

 

[vibrokatana]

I don't get why people try to smack down a general disagreement. I view communities as a online democracy where people should have the utmost freedom of speech as long as they do not impede on the rights of others or blatantly hurt them. I have seen the overall seemingly destructive desire for rules and regulations destroy communities of christians who attempt to do the right thing but end up hiding behind their own rules as a means of self defense and assaults against fellow members. Much too much like the average church in america where in members feel they are forced to conform to a set standard or are shunned by the community at large.

 

[Jesus Loves You Lots]

ok i am going to put my thots in now that i hqave had time to cool off and think
1. i am sorry that T felt as tho she must leave
2. i do feel the way the alliance as a whole acted to her was wrong
also i my self has said words like sucks, dang, crap, ect. when i have been upset and that was in alliance chat as well in ts
and i i got warned by officers, however i think that the officers need to understand(not saying they dont) that some times people are going through alot and say said word/words are a safer alternitive than cursing, the bible does say no corrupt comunication out of ur mouth but that with will bless other(paraphased in Ephiasens)jesus was the law and the law is love, "for god so loved the world that he gave his only son.... ans christ came not to condemn the world but to save it"(john3:16-17)
im sorry that T felt she must left and im Sry the way people handled the situation i do see the point made by the officers however the repremand should have been expressed with more love than that and not in front of everyone, cause that wasnt right.

God Bless
Your Brother In Christ
Cameron

 

[MaidMirawyn]

Ok, first off, I can't find a way to delete my account here. Is that something you have to do for me? I don't want to be a member here and I don't want to receive e-mail notifications to this thread. I really just want to be done with this.

If you are receiving email notifications, you have somehow subscribed to the thread. You can unsubscribe from a thread, and it will stop sending you emails. I'm going to check how to do that...

Edit: Click on "User CP", then choose "Edit Subscriptions." From there you can delete any subscriptions.

 

[dorkelf]

It's tempting to weigh in on some of the issues brought up in this thread, but I know from experience that "Why I left the guild" threads rarely accomplish anything constructive after the offended party has had his/her say and a chance to counter-respond. That has been accomplished here. I will only add as a personal note to Clara that I'm sorry to see you leave. Though my life has been too busy lately to allow much Guild Wars PvE I've always enjoyed teaming up with you and Mike and chatting with y'all in-game and over TS. I hope you'll feel that the door is open here in the future if you should decide to return.

Paul

 

[IlterInan]

Will be praying for you Teresa and I hope that you do find a place where you are in peace; whether it be one on one with Christ or a group of individuals who share your faith and beliefs.

On a slightly more tender note; I think this is a time of forgiveness and love. Debate of individual ideologies have never seen a mutual outcome since the dawn of time. Christians were not made by God, using cookie cutters; consequently we all have different forms of exalting the Lord's name, praising, and worshiping him. Acceptance can sprout the seed of God's love, while rejection can shun it.

 

[IlterInan]

I also dont believe what the moderators did or do on a general basis is wrong or unacceptable by any means. They are merely trying to reserve an environment for ones who do not like seeing profanity or other suggestive dialogue while playing GW. Though I use that word, and other words which are far worse; at given instances when my stress levels are beyond bearable, I refrain from using them when I am in alliance chat or playing with guildies. Does that make me a conformist? No, its just mutual respect, and a good way to clean up my sailor mouth which I crafted with such expertise before my Christian years.

Besides, from what I witnessed that day in chat, it was something along the lines of "Please refrain from using (insert partially or wholly offensive word here) in alliance chat."

it was definitely not "How dare thee utter the (insert partially or wholly offensive word here)word in the presence of ones such as ourselves! Hmm??"

Joking aside, I think moderators are doing a good job moderating. Yet, that is my mere two cents.

 

[DZwart]

Currently, the way inappropriate or filtered language occurrences are handled, is that we use a single message in alliance chat. The reasoning is that with whispers is if 3 officers are on, they may each whisper the person. Our fear with this was that we did not want to make any individual feel like they were being beaten up over the instance, whether intentional or incidental. The other case would be that each officer would assume that the others had replied and that if no correction occurred, the language would proliferate to the point that people start turning alliance chat off to avoid it. A single tell in alliance chat would make the other officers aware that it had been handled and that everyone else would know it had been handled as well to avoid further badgering in alliance chat.

Ultimately, as Clara has stated, her biggest problem wasn't necessarily the language used or even how the situation was handled. If you would like to discuss these, especially how we handle those types of situations understanding what I have written above, please use the guild improvement suggestions thread.

The primary issue, as she stated, was hypocrisy. Hypocrisy, as defined by Miriam-Webster (m-w.com) is:

a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion

As I stated in my original response, I do not feel that I, or any of the officers have an "assumption of an appearance of virtue". I stand before you a sinful man saved only by the amazing and boundless Grace of God.

Despite this sinful nature, one of our jobs as we serve as leaders of this guild is to maintain communication, including an open and inviting alliance/guild chat channel. We don't do this to hold any superiority over anyone else, but because without it, this guild, alliance and even the forum might not remain a comfortable place where the members feel that they can stay, develop relationships, and hopefully open up into meaningful relationships with others in pursuit of their relationship with God.

I would also like to make sure you know that I, and I am certain other have as well, have prayed for you and will continue to pray for you in your spiritual walk, even if it has not been said. I don't feel the need to sign each prayer request thread, but I do pray and need to work to continue to make these prayers a more regular and constant effort.

I would like to echo dorkelf's statement that I am sorry to see you leave and that I hope if you do choose to return that you feel the door is open. However, if not, I hope you do find the community that you seek and that it is one that is supportive of your walk with Christ.

Finally, I again echo dorkelf's sentiment that I also believe that this thread has probably fulfilled its usefulness. I will close it to further posts at this time.