Why I don't Beleave in any man made religion.

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (timor @ June 23 2003,2:22)]BygByron, you're really beginning to frustrate me.
First of all, you said the infamous "use your own mind" line. I hate that line. That is such an ignorant comment that I'm not even going to touch it anymore.

About judging, we Christians are not judging - we are rather stating the fact which our God has laid down. We do not hate homosexuals, but are told to love them as any other.

Furthermore, we never said that God dislikes them. God loves everyone. However, God hates sin, and so he dislikes the SIN of homosexuality - not the homosexual. Popes in the middle ages did not make it wrong. God's law made it wrong, thousands of years before the Middle Ages. Homosexuality is not something new. Heck, greeks and romans were fine with it (between men, atleast...for romans, sex between women was taboo).

Now, if you want me to think extrabiblically and use my own mind, I must admit, apart from Christ I am really not a big fan of homosexuals...not at all. But, wait, you're gonna call that prejudice, which you also said you don't want. And if you DO call it prejudice, you're "judging my mind" or whatever! *Gasp*

*sigh* These noncoherent posts make my head hurt, this is my last reply for a couple hours..

And by the way, if you're going to respond, feel free to use periods and other helpful punctuation - it lets people know when its ok to breathe.

Use your own mind, why not god gave it to you, of course we shoudl use others teaching and wisdom too, but only oursleves are responsibel for our unique views, EVERYBODYS viewpoints should be unique, it's called diversity, I'm prety sure the Bible states that as a good thing!!!

And second of all your idea of judging is way off, because the definition of "prejudice" is "using resources other than your own to judge somebody", look it up in the dictionary, so what your doing is using the Bible, to judge people, there is nothing wrong with saying "i don't like homosexuals" as long as you actually know some, and are aware, but if you don't know any and just state what the Bible say, then that's prejudice, so use your own mind!!!

"god hates sin" GOD DOESN'T HATE ANYTHING, if you had a clue about Taoism, the pope has touched on this you'd understand Sin is reuqird for good!!!

And I like the non-prejudice comment, at the end, why would I call the prjudice, you are assuming (prejudice) that I will say that is prejudice

.

My posts are a mess, that is very true, sorry about that, but this is a site of people with common interests as me (gaems), but at the same time I can express my viewpoint on religion and life!

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] ]Use your own mind, why not god gave it to you, of course we shoudl use others teaching and wisdom too, but only oursleves are responsibel for our unique views, EVERYBODYS viewpoints should be unique, it's called diversity, I'm prety sure the Bible states that as a good thing!!!

And second of all your idea of judging is way off, because the definition of "prejudice" is "using resources other than your own to judge somebody", look it up in the dictionary, so what your doing is using the Bible, to judge people, there is nothing wrong with saying "i don't like homosexuals" as long as you actually know some, and are aware, but if you don't know any and just state what the Bible say, then that's prejudice, so use your own mind!!!

"god hates sin" GOD DOESN'T HATE ANYTHING, if you had a clue about Taoism, the pope has touched on this you'd understand Sin is reuqird for good!!!

And I like the non-prejudice comment, at the end, why would I call the prjudice, you are assuming (prejudice) that I will say that is prejudice .

My posts are a mess, that is very true, sorry about that, but this is a site of people with common interests as me (gaems), but at the same time I can express my viewpoint on religion and life!

That was my point - I do use my own mind. So does Kidan, CCGR, and every other Christian on this website. We do not have blind faith, as people so often like to suggest. We have researched, we have thought, we have experimented, and we have come to conclusions, and using my own mind, I know that Jesus is the Christ.

God does hate sin. It's totally biblical, but of course, you won't accept that. God, however, is totally good, and before He created us or anything else, sin did not exist, yet good did.

Now, if we were to get into a relativistic discussion, I can certainly see how you'd think good cannot exist without bad. You're viewing good as being judged against other actions which are deemed bad, thus making other actions earn the description of "good".

However, this is where it all comes together. Just as darkness is the abscence of light, and cold is the abscence of heat, "bad" is the abscence of good! Therefore, it is more logical to assume that for BAD to be present, good must be present, but BAD is not required for GOOD.

EDIT---> And please do not insult me with the phrase "if you had a clue" ever again. Thank you =\

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] (timor @ June 23 2003,5:17)]That was my point - I do use my own mind. So does Kidan, CCGR, and every other Christian on this website. We do not have blind faith, as people so often like to suggest. We have researched, we have thought, we have experimented, and we have come to conclusions, and using my own mind, I know that Jesus is the Christ.

God does hate sin. It's totally biblical, but of course, you won't accept that. God, however, is totally good, and before He created us or anything else, sin did not exist, yet good did.

Now, if we were to get into a relativistic discussion, I can certainly see how you'd think good cannot exist without bad. You're viewing good as being judged against other actions which are deemed bad, thus making other actions earn the description of "good".

However, this is where it all comes together. Just as darkness is the abscence of light, and cold is the abscence of heat, "bad" is the abscence of good! Therefore, it is more logical to assume that for BAD to be present, good must be present, but BAD is not required for GOOD.

EDIT---> And please do not insult me with the phrase "if you had a clue" ever again. Thank you =\

I agree using your own mind is the best way to establisha point, but many people just argue with me by throwing quotes out of the bible to me, I can't stand that, and to from my experience Christianity is a pretty blind faith, as is most western religions, becasue there are no meditations, fasting, or time to get truly in tough with yourself, adn the only reason I argue this is I feel that the Bible requires an update from fresh minds, who haev gained 1000s of years more knowledge!

I'm going to have to disagree with you I've much of (CANT REMEMBER HIS NAME, THE GUY WHO STARTED TAOSIM) and I think his opinion about good and evil is right, just glance at the Yin-Yang and you'll see what I'm talking about

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I understand your point about dark and light, but as humans it's instinct to always define things, we are prejudice by nature, so if all darkness was gone we'd find something new to define darkness until there is one person left in the world, then you'd define him half bad and half good, it's like a logarithm.

I apologize if I insulted you, didn't mean to!

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] ]I agree using your own mind is the best way to establisha point, but many people just argue with me by throwing quotes out of the bible to me, I can't stand that, and to from my experience Christianity is a pretty blind faith, as is most western religions, becasue there are no meditations, fasting, or time to get truly in tough with yourself, adn the only reason I argue this is I feel that the Bible requires an update from fresh minds, who haev gained 1000s of years more knowledge!

I'm going to have to disagree with you I've much of (CANT REMEMBER HIS NAME, THE GUY WHO STARTED TAOSIM) and I think his opinion about good and evil is right, just glance at the Yin-Yang and you'll see what I'm talking about .

I understand your point about dark and light, but as humans it's instinct to always define things, we are prejudice by nature, so if all darkness was gone we'd find something new to define darkness until there is one person left in the world, then you'd define him half bad and half good, it's like a logarithm.

I apologize if I insulted you, didn't mean to!

Hehe, no worries on the insult

Now, about "blind faith". Christianity is not about getting in touch with ourselves - its about getting in touch with God. We do this through devotion and through an active prayer life. However, this is not what I meant about blind faith and is not the definition most people use. Most people imply that Christians believe without any research or thought about anything else. This is false in regards to me, Kidan, CCGR, and as I said, most other Christians on this website. For instance, I love philosophy. I own works by both Aristotle and Plato (I am reading the Republic right now). I'll have to brush up on Yin-Yang.

However, about using your own mind, do you not see that I can easily say this to you also? You have said "go and read abotu taoism and yin-yang". Not only have you failed to clearly define your stance (for we could just as easily say "go and read the Bible") but you have also deferred to others' views rather than your own.

 

[mpty]

Ah, thanks Gris for clearing that up. I use biblegateway too, but I prefer... well, the formal equivalence. And yes, I agree fully with looking carefully at context... very important. The um, portion you took from the book also gives me uh... new knowledge of translation... quite interesting.

Edit: Oh! Here's a definition of "prejudice" by Merriam-Webster:
preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics.

I've discovered too that Taoism was uh... founded? by a Chinese guy named "Lao-Tse (604-531 BCE)" and means "path" or "the way"...

 

[timor]

bible.crosswalk.com is good, to =D i like it because it offers the latin vulgate

 

[Kidan]

yeah, bible.crosswalk is good, so is the blue bible and bible.com

yet while at home I use my eSword quite often

 

[Grand Master]

I would just like to make it clear that I don't advocate or condone homosexual behaviour, but I think it is important to understand people are born homosexual and that they do not choose to have homosexual thoughts and feelings. I know I didn't "choose" to be heterosexual; it just so happens that I am attracted to women and there is no way I could be attracted to a man.

Kidan, I have noticed that you keep trying to simplify my argument as if I was talking about a single "gay gene". I was never refering to Dr. Hamer's study. I am talking about an gene-environment interaction. Gene expression can be significantly affected by the environment and almost every characteristic is influenced to some degree by the environment. Homsoexuality is likely a cause of several factors that contribute to it's occurence. Here is a page that elaborates on some of my points: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus3.htm
There are a few publications referenced. I don't know if you're in a position to get a hold of any of these.

Kidan, since you believe people choose to be homosexual, I am curious as to what you think people's reasons for being gay are.

 

[Kidan]

Most articles that say yes to the gay gene (including the one in your link, if you read it) point to Haner's article.

Gene's controls the color of our screen, the color of our hair, how tall we become, our metabolism rate. Makes us predisposed towards certain tasks, but does not control us. While we may be predisposed to sin (the Bible itself tells us that some sins carry down the generations, causing every family member to be burdened with them) we still have the choice on whether to sin or not. Gene's control characteristics, not actions. My genes do not make me choose to go to the store tomorrow. My genes do not make me go to church a over church b.


As for why. The reasons could be numerous, they might enjoy it more than regular sex, I don't know, I've never asked a homosexual 'Why are you gay?" Such a question, asked out of the blue, outside of a discussion in a similar vein as this would be crass and judgemental, not showing the love that all people are due, irregardless of their sins. Yet it is still a sin they choose to commit.

 

[timor]

Just a quick question..why don't you condone something you feel they (homosexuals) cannot control?

 

[XOMINOUS ANGELX]

its kinda funny that no one has anything else to say about anything else I said but the gay thing... Homosexuality is not a dieseace. if it is then i guess being a human is a deasease. also to the one that pointed out all those scriptures.. its like this... I think the bible has good morals to it but I do not beleave it was all writen by god.. therefore I choose to beleave it was writen by people. that is my main arguement. but people blindly write down more scriptures to counter me then telling me why they know for a fact the bible is really hand writen by god himself... so i consider all scipture counters to my original post. non relevent. of course the bible is going to say that.. the people who wrote it wanted to control people.... and I think its kind of a shame that the bible has been used so negitavely by people from the time it was made to now even... also marxism will never work I'll openly admit that because people are to greedy for it to work... the major reason the old soviet union outlawed religion was because religion makes people do funny things... like kill non beleavers.... look at the middle east for example... instead of having all these crazy relegions we need to aknowledge there is a god. not give him a name unless he comes down from wherever and tells us.... and worship him in our own ways. following basic common sense princibles like dont steal don't kill... I used to go to church and I am sort of a goth guy. I dress in black and I wore a trench coat. I used to like on of the pastors daughters and it was nothing but innocent love... however I was unrightfully judged had grow 40 year olds that had nothing to do with the sitiation getting in my face telling me Im not good enough blah blah blah... judge not less you be judged.. this was also around the time of columbine.... and to me my trench coat is simply that... a coat I just happen to like... and all kinds of other stories I could tell.... whenj the church can follow there own teachings maybee Ill go back... it has nothing to do with me hating god.... it has to do with idiotic people who think there ALWAYS right and other people who disagree are always wrong.

 

[timor]

I agree with you. The Bible was written by men, not God. It was AUTHORED by God, however. Divine inspriation, not divine calligraphy, is how the Bible came into our hands.

God DID tell us his name. He is "The Great I Am." He is also called Yaweh and Jehova.

The reason we're focusing on homosexuality is because that is the course this thread has taken. Please feel free to take it to a different theological discussion, but unless your trench coat and puppy love are relevant to the discussion, please avoid ranting.

 

[Grand Master]

Timor, the reason I can say I don't condone homosexual behaviour is because homosexual acts are not the same thing as being homosexual. They can't control their feelings and some of their thoughts, but they can control what they do. If a man is not married, and if he have strong sexual feelings toward women, he can still choose whether or not to act on those feelings. Doing something and thinking about something are not the same.

Kidan, the article I posted the link for did talk about the Dr. Hamer's research, but it did not cite it as being a very credible study. Read it again. I think I will end this debate since I know it is futile to even try to convince you of the truth. You will cling to your false beliefs no matter what. If I presented you with absolute evidence you would still deny it. You would disagree with it, claiming that a mistake has somehow been made or that it is somehow unreliable. You have offered absolutely no good reasons for your way of thinking. And when it comes to other matters such as the age of the Earth, you will claim the Earth is only 6000 years old and that humans co-existed with the dinosaurs even the there is an overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary. I guess all these brilliant physicists, astronomers, and geologists are just poor schmucks who have no idea what they are talking about. But you of course, know the truth, because it is written in the Bible. You will never change your beliefs no matter what. You look only for evidence which supports your convictions and you disregard the rest, no matter how convincing it is.

 

[[MALDI]Curtis_E_Bare]

Quote[/b] ([TRiBForCe]Griswald @ June 22 2003,1:47)]***Disclaimer: this is not an attack on anyone! This is simply what God laid out to Isreal after taking them out of Egypt. Read the whole chapters to get the context of them more fully. I don't see homosexuality as a race of people but simply a sin done by people... just like greed, lust, alcholism, murder etc... No worse and no better. Sin is sin. Love the people, but hate the sin.***

***Please read the whole passage as this is only one thing out of numerous others regarding whom you may not have sex with... the only reason I used this one was because it pertained to what our discussion was about. ***

Leviticus 20:13
"If a man has sex with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is abhorrent. They must be put to death; they are responsible for their own deaths. ***No I don't think we should kill them!***

So why not kill homosexuals?  If you say you devote your life to God then why not follow (what you claim to be) the word of God?  Are we allowed to pick and chose what we want to obey?  If so I know 3 or 4 commandments I think I'll ignore

Quote[/b] ]***Disclaimer: this is not an attack on anyone! This is simply what God laid out to Isreal after taking them out of Egypt. Read the whole chapters to get the context of them more fully. I don't see homosexuality as a race of people but simply a sin done by people... just like greed, lust, alcholism, murder etc... No worse and no better. Sin is sin. Love the people, but hate the sin.***

***Please read the whole passage as this is only one thing out of numerous others regarding whom you may not have sex with... the only reason I used this one was because it pertained to what our discussion was about. ***

Leviticus 20:13
"If a man has sex with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is abhorrent. They must be put to death; they are responsible for their own deaths. ***No I don't think we should kill them!***

 

[Kidan]

Quote[/b] (Grand Master @ June 24 2003,6:20)]Kidan, the article I posted the link for did talk about the Dr. Hamer's research, but it did not cite it as being a very credible study.

I know that, I read that, but in the end that is WHAT they are basing their decision and the article on.

Quote[/b] (Grand Master @ June 24 2003,6:20)]Read it again. I think I will end this debate since I know it is futile to even try to convince you of the truth. You will cling to your false beliefs no matter what.

Wow, what a lovely attack on my personal beliefs.  Whether or not they are false, they are mine.  If you believe what you say (taking a more or less humanist approach with moral relativism at the forefront) then you would not attack my beliefs and decry them as false.

Quote[/b] (Grand Master @ June 24 2003,6:20)]If I presented you with absolute evidence you would still deny it. You would disagree with it, claiming that a mistake has somehow been made or that it is somehow unreliable. You have offered absolutely no good reasons for your way of thinking.

No.  Other doctors and scientists are claiming that a mistake has been made.  If you could present with absolute evidence, 100% repeatable, that homosexual behaviour is caused by a gene (or set of genes) then I would believe it.  Yet noone has been able to do this at all.  We're talking about theories here not absolutes

Quote[/b] (Grand Master @ June 24 2003,6:20)]And when it comes to other matters such as the age of the Earth, you will claim the Earth is only 6000 years old and that humans co-existed with the dinosaurs even the there is an overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary. I guess all these brilliant physicists, astronomers, and geologists are just poor schmucks who have no idea what they are talking about.

And of course all those other brilliant physicists, astronomers and geologists that encourage a young earth?  Are they idiots as well?  I think back to Galileo, how was ridiculed for his crazy, unpopular, and it was cliamed unscientific belief in a solar centric orginazation of the solar system.

Quote[/b] (Grand Master @ June 24 2003,6:20)] But you of course, know the truth, because it is written in the Bible. You will never change your beliefs no matter what. You look only for evidence which supports your convictions and you disregard the rest, no matter how convincing it is.

Again, what a wonderful attack on my personal character and beliefs, basically accusing me of blindly believing the first thing I read.  I personally think it takes a tad more character than that, to argue against these popular beliefs and stand for the ones I do believe.  AS I notice I constantly have to reaffirm, I am not blindly believing things, rather I look, I read, I study, not one but as many sides of an argument as I can find.  Then once I have all of that, I make my decisions.  YET repeatedly (esp. recently) I have been accused of being a brainless sheep.  Why is this?  Have I not presented my arguements in logical manner?  Or is the subject matter such that anyone having a dissenting opionion is automatically an idiot?

 

[timor]

Wow, Kidan owns this thread.

 

[Moody]

Not just this thread.

 

[Kidan]

Not I, but the Lord, give praise where it is due.

 

[Mr_Eon]

Oooh, bit of pride I detect there Kidan? Do you really think your replies are so conclusive as to be divinely inspired?  

Curtis, I think the quote you dug up is out of the Old Testament. Now, I often used to hit these guys over the head with the old Testament, seeing as how it was full of cannibalism, incest, murder and genocide (all in the name of God!) and they've always come back and said that the OT is the Law of Israel, and the NT is the Word of Christ. Apparently the Word of Christ supercedes the Law of Israel. Apparently this makes everything comitted under the laws of the OT "not count" for the purposes of immorality. I guess they weren't real people, just pagans, or something...


Eon

 

[Kidan]

eon, no u misunderstand. I can do nothing without the Lord. I do not come here for praise or congratulations. I come here to discuss things from a Christian point of view, to answer questions, and to learn.

I am not saying 'My posts are the end all and be all' I am saying 'Don't praise me, praise God.'