Why all the MMO hate around here?

XionTawa

New Member
My theory: MMOs seem to get a lot of hate around here...seems for 2 reasons: no consoles and monthly fees...the problem is, consoles are just too limiting for games designed to run on computers, and not having a keyboard and mouse really limits you, restricted access to hotkeys and typing, which is all really required to play an MMO well...and without the monthly fees, we would not get the updates and content that we get with good MMOs...
 
I think "hate" is far too strong a word. I retired from MMOs after quitting World of Warcraft in 2007, but I have fond memories of playing Dark Age of Camelot and WoW.

I think "disappointment" would be a more accurate term. Just like the Power Glove, MMOs don't live up to gamers' imaginations.

But 17 years later, the Wii was released and what children imagined the Power Glove would do was realized through the Wii Remote and Nunchuk. It took the better part of two decades, but technology finally brought our imagination to life. Now Microsoft is taking the next logical step with Project Natal. Technology advances by small steps, not leaps and bounds.

The same is true of MMOs. For all its graphical enhancements, World of Warcraft, when compared to Everquest, is evolutionary (small steps) rather than revolutionary (leaps and bounds).

Furthermore, as gamers grow older, they're less willing to invest as much time in gaming. When I played in the Dark Age of Camelot beta, I could afford to spend hours learning the game and traveling from one point to another.

There are many reasons not to play MMOs:

Financial. Most MMOs cost $15 a month to play. To play Guild Wars, one needs to buy the game. If one wants new content, one must purchase the expansions, which also cost money.

Free MMOs (e.g. Neo Steam, Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine) tend to be generic and rather bland when compared to their retail counterparts.

Variety. There are a lot of great games out right now--so many that most gamers aren't content with dedicating most or all of their gaming time to one game. I alternate between several games: Team Fortress 2, Left 4 Dead, and Unreal Tournament 3 on the PC; Henry Hatsworth in the Puzzling Adventure on the DS; Okami on the Wii; Zelda: Ocarina of Time on the Wii Virtual Console. I completed Bubble Bobble for the NES on Wii last night and I recently re-installed Natural Selection in anticipation of NS2. There's no time left for a MMO.

If I did decide to pick up a MMO again, I would want to play long enough to feel I was getting my money's worth. Many players feel the same way and the game often feels more like a "job" than a game.

Value. With most AAA PC titles selling for $50 at release, I have no trouble accepting that $15 is a fair amount to pay for a monthly MMO subscription; however, I don't believe MMO games provide the best value for the time I spend playing them.

When I turn on my DS, I can be playing a Henry Hatsworth level within 60 seconds. The bulk of the time I spend playing the game is fun. When I load Team Fortress 2, I may spend a few minutes joining the server, but once I'm in, I'm just a few clicks and seconds away from entering the game. Aside from respawn times (for which I sometimes keep a book on my desk), I spend the bulk of the game having fun.

When I played DAoC and WoW, it seemed I wasn't able to accomplish anything with less than an hour to dedicate to the game. If I wanted to run an instance, I would need to block off 2-4 hours. I spent more time than I care to think of running from point A to point B.

I had some fun when I played WoW, but it seemed like I spent a greater percentage of my time "working" than playing. When players have 30-60 minutes to play a game, they want to have fun in that span of time, not spend it watching their character run down a road or grind levels.

Speaking of grinding levels: Whenever I feel the itch to play a MMO again, all I have to do is remember the "level treadmill" and that desire disappears. I killed countless boars, not because I wanted to or was even slightly interested in doing so, but because the game developers decided that I had to before I could access more interesting content.

True, I could have run quests, but the quests were often more annoying than grinding levels. Most quests looked like "Collect X of Y Z" where X is a number, Y is a creature name, and Z is the part of a creature that can be used for practical purposes. When the drop rates are absurdly low (as they often were in WoW), quests become very stale very quickly.

Another common type of the quest is the "Bring A from B to C" where A is the name of the item/letter/scroll, B is the NPC giving the quest, and C is the intended recipient. These quests are a thin coat of paint on "Go from point A to B" missions that wouldn't stand as legitimate tasks in more action-driven titles.

Throw in the classic escort quest ("Escort NPC from point A to B while killing monsters/bandits/vampires that attack you and/or the NPC") and you have the bulk of most quests in most MMOs. Not all, mind you, but most.

Socializing. While the guild structure offers a greater level of interactivity than most shooter or strategy titles, most MMOs require you to be at or near the same level as the person you want to group with for grouping to be effective.

One of the main reasons I started playing WoW was to hang out with Elihu online. But by the time I joined the game, Elihu's main character was well on his way to level 60. In order to hang out with me, a newbie, Elihu had to roll a new character. We had to level at approximately the same speed or the other would be left behind.

I know City of Heroes circumvented this long-standing issue with MMOs by introducing the sidekick system. For that, I applaud the developers. The solution seems so simple and so obvious, it's a wonder that so few MMO games have a similar feature.

Immersion. When I play Team Fortress 2 and I'm running the enemy intel to my team's base, I'm focused. I'm in the game. There have been a few times when I answered my wife's question with a, "Hold on, I've got the intel, let me cap this right quick." (The alternate form of this is, "Wait a second until I die," which still inspires a chuckle.)

When I play World of Warcraft, I log in to Ironforge (or whatever the new popular starting area is), and hear "wtb sword of awesomeness" or "lfg 48 hunter bm spec" or "lollerskates l2play," all from some random player named Chuknoris or Leetskilz while a half-naked Dark Elf dances on top of a mailbox. There is no part of that scenario that lends to immersion in the game.

To be fair, there were moments I was playing in the remote areas of Azeroth when I was focused on the environment. Those were some of my favorite times playing WoW.

And in the interest of full disclosure, Dark Age of Camelot players, on average, did tend to be older and much more mature. I've known plenty of mature WoW players, but I've also seen my fair share of Chuknoris players, too.

Challenge. When I burn down half the opposing team as Pyro or, more commonly, avoid an onslaught of rocket fire and heavy machine gun bullets as Medic, I feel as though I've done something that requires skill.

When I kill a monster or even another player in a MMO, it's often because I invested the hours grinding levels and farming materials to make the armor or weapons that give me an advantage over my opponent. The determining factor of the kill wasn't skill, it was time.

To be fair, PvP does tend to require more skill than PvE. When I used to play the WoW battlegrounds with my level 48 Dwarf Hunter, I had to focus if I wanted to win.

Still, shooter and strategy games tend to offer greater challenges, in terms of skill.


Now, in the interest of full disclosure: I am often tempted to play a MMO and sign up for most MMO betas I find. I simultaneously hope for and fear the day that a developer takes the next big step in MMO design and draws me back to MMOs.

There are a lot of great times to be had in MMOs. Persistent worlds, thousands of players running through the same city, the planning of and achievement of long-term goals, a simple interface to interact with guild/clan members--no other genre offers these features.

In other words, if you're looking for certain gaming experiences, you're only going to find them in MMOs.

The question remains: Are you willing or able to invest the time required to earn those experiences?

Right now, my answer is "no." It may change in the future. It probably won't.

Nevertheless, for gamers who prefer MMOs and are able to balance MMO play and "real life" responsibilities, I say: Go for it. Enjoy it. Play in such a way as to glorify God.

For those who prefer other genres: Cut the MMO players a break. :) For every "Chuknoris" running through Ironforge in his underwear and screaming about Scientology, there's at least a few gamers who blend into the game.

I should know. I was one of them. :)
 
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I don't have any hate for MMO's, they're just not my cup of tea.

It's just when it comes to BioWare and (Knights of) the Old Republic, I don't see how limiting your audience is a good thing. There are a lot of series fans that played the first two on Xbox and will never play this one.

Edit: Also, I think I've said before, I just don't like multiplayer games anymore.
 
Tek makes some good points.

One reason I don't play WoW is from all the previous players saying how much time they do have to spend playing to get anywhere. Few hour long raid for a gear piece that's 12.7% better stat-wise and offers increased Frost Resistance by 4%? That doesn't sound like fun, that sounds like a carrot on a stick. I could only stand the trial for 45 minutes too. Killing wolves. Okay. Killing things by the wolves. Okay. Killing the wolves, things by the wolves, and the things' leaders? Uninstall. -_-) WAR and LOTRO actually felt fun, but LOTRO turned into "lets see how long it takes for me to run to a quest" and WAR into "destro pwns all" (though I still enjoy WAR :D).

Another thing I'm feeling I need to do is stay away from the magical-type games, like I did with Guild Wars. WAR is also pretty heavy lore-wise, and though I enjoy the combat and RVR, I don't feel right playing in that universe. Same with WoW, Shamans and Warlocks, the undead...? Meh.

If anything, I'm only looking to see how Old Republic and Champions Online turns out, those seem to be shaping up well. But yeah, I don't like how much time you must invest to raise a little bar to it's breaking point, get a ding sound, throw a new skill on your hotbar, and go back to fetch quests.

EDIT: Oh, and MMO'ers spam too much. Thus I don't like the games. :p
 
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I pretty much mirror Tek's and Keero's sentiments and I wouldn't say I hate MMO's at all.

It's also probably easier for me to get caught up in a MMO more than most games because of a perfectionist streak. This usually ends up in hours of un-fun grinding and re-grinding as I fiddle with stats and equipment. I'm usually doing this alone too as I don't want to get into a party until I know I won't be the one wiping it so there goes the other half of the fun. The lure of a persistent world is pretty neat though. I am waiting to try the Champions beta but I know I really shouldn't as I have no time or money for such a thing :/ .

For the life drain effect MMOs have to me in particular I shall quote wargames "The only winning move is not to play" :p .
 
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IMO you could make an awesome MMO while only using an analog stick and 8 buttons total.

The problem I have with them is:

- The player base: there are almost always rude or stupid people (or even worst a combination of both). When you are heavily reliant on forming a working party this becomes a drastic problem.

- Complexity: Rather then make something fun, they attempt to add in every little nicknak and 5000 buttons you can press. When you need to spend weeks memorizing skill charts and key combinations your working not playing. If your paying somebody to do work then something is obviously wrong.

- Leveling and farming: Almost every MMO has an RPG leveling element. IMO leveling in the traditional sense is lame. Invariably there is going to be some loser somewhere who has spent most of his waking hours playing the game. He is going to have all the best gear and your going to be cast aside like a soggy bag of potatoes. Unless you seemingly devote half your life to the game you don't get benefits.

One of my favorite MMOs to this date is the original iteration of planetside. You started off with enough skill points that you could stand up to most veterans. Every day you could siphon off a skill to get the points back, so you could reroll to be say a pilot if you got bored. As you leveled you could have more skills and could take up leadership. And since there weren't limits to how many people could attack (well aside from total # in region), everyone was welcomed into squads for the extra firepower.
 
I know I've gotten my money's worth out of Guild Wars... But that's an MMO riddled with exceptions to the rule.

I love MMOs, unfortunately I can't afford the cost, so I get in the betas where I can. I did get WoW again for the summer to play with friends (and so I can at least say I've hit max lvl on it and know what I'm talking about when I get into discussions with people about MMOs...), and am planning to make a tradition out of it and every summer buy three months on whatever subscription based game strikes my fancy. That might end with the 40k game in the works however...

I'm very much a solo style player (guild events being the exception) so I find myself turning off the various chats, leaving the cities/social hubs and really immersing myself in the game and locations I visit. I love to get lost in the game and lose count of the hours played, and I find that is easiest to do in an MMO for me and with GW in particular because I can hit max level in a days worth of playing and I'm not looking for the next big gear drop.

So no, I highly doubt you'll ever hear any MMO hatin' from me. :p
 
I adore MMOs. I've played pretty much played every major one since the Everquest beta. I love the social interactiveness of MMOs, I like helping people I don' t know, and I like playing in a guild. I do agree they are often not worth the expense, but often I play them for a longer period of time that it would be much less in price than what most people pay for single player or console games, get bored of them, and move on to something else and buy another. I buy only a couple of games a year, in all honesty.

I played WoW for three years, one of which was in Mustard Seed with XionTawa. I've never been much of a fan of Guild Wars' PvE campaigns. I like PvP a lot, but the PvE bores me. Star Wars Galaxies, before the famed combat upgrade, was my favorite MMO of all, but I was the only person I knew playing it. And I have a fondness for Everquest, as that was the first time I ever really felt immersed in a game environment, and was in awe at the idea that the avatars running past me were helmed by real people.

I'm not an obsessive gamer. My tolerance is about 4 hours in one sitting, and that would only be for a serious raid once in awhile. I do not enjoy hardcore gaming on consoles. The graphics are generally not as nice, and the controls are a lot more limited. I play consoles for fun, light games and music games (which is probably why I need to get a Wii eventually).
 
My theory: MMOs seem to get a lot of hate around here...seems for 2 reasons: no consoles and monthly fees...the problem is, consoles are just too limiting for games designed to run on computers, and not having a keyboard and mouse really limits you, restricted access to hotkeys and typing, which is all really required to play an MMO well...and without the monthly fees, we would not get the updates and content that we get with good MMOs...
GW is an mmo and updates are free..no monthly fees and the releases are usually reasonably priced
 
Guild Wars is actually a COORPG. Kinda like a Single-Player game with an online hub. :p
 
I played WoW for a couple years and I had a lot of fun playing the game. I dunno why exactly, but I did grow tired of the game. A lot of it had to do with my time restrictions, not being able to raid for 4 hours, for the opportunity to roll for a chance to get an upgrade to my gear. But regardless of whether I won an upgrade or not, when you raid with a good guild or group of people, it can be still fun!

There lies another issue. A lot of playing an MMO is you're required to recruit the help of others within the MMO to reach a common goal. Not much can be done on your own. And you almost never know what kind of person you're going to run into. As a Christian, this can be an issue.

In MMO's there is no "end". It just keeps going. New patches, new gear, new quests, new mounts, new expansions. It can really keep a gamer busy. I missed the feeling of beating the game.
 
MMOs are cool

I've played most of the big MMOs in the past and must say I'm pretty much right on the exact path as Tek. I usually have small chunks of time to game which does not lend itself to big MMO action. My favorite MMO game and only the second of those games I've played where I actually maxed out a character was City of Heroes/City of Villains. That game is the only one to work around the problem of people out-levelling you with the whole sidekick/exemplar mechanic. Who knows, I may go back and play it again sometime; after all, I did get a Villain to lvl 50 but never got there with a Hero...

The games are fun and people should definitely cut out the 'hate' for the MMOs. If you've got the chunks of time to play, go for it, getting involved in an active guild can be a LOT of fun. Personally, working full-time, having a wife and two children under the age of 5 tends to keep me too busy to have those big chunks of time for gaming anymore.

- Lance
 
Personally, working full-time, having a wife and two children under the age of 5 tends to keep me too busy to have those big chunks of time for gaming anymore.

I also have a full time job, have a wife and 2 kids under 4...hehe...but the things is we don't really watch TV, instead we play MMOs...so while MOST people site 2 to 3 hours in front of the TV, we do it in front of the computer...and playing MMOs is MUCH cheaper than TV...

(BTW, I love your name...I love disc golf as well... :) )
 
I wouldn't mind getting back into COH/COV with an active guild, but those particularly aren't much fun without a group of people to play with. I really enjoyed playing them when I did have a group, though.

(Also a disc golf fan...)
 
Sounds like somebody is blessed enough to have a wife that is a gamer, must be nice. At least my wife understands that I love to game and lets me have some time here and there. :)

I don't know how much disc golfing will be taking place up here in Fargo since all the courses got flooded this year with our horrific, record-breaking water this spring. I may have to do some travelling to get my fix, lol.

- Lance
 
Sounds like somebody is blessed enough to have a wife that is a gamer, must be nice. At least my wife understands that I love to game and lets me have some time here and there. :)

I don't know how much disc golfing will be taking place up here in Fargo since all the courses got flooded this year with our horrific, record-breaking water this spring. I may have to do some travelling to get my fix, lol.

- Lance

Yep yep...well, I converted her...hehe... Sorry to her she won't play with ya...I remember what that was like...and I hated it...lol...

(When it rains here we uaully have to wait a couple days to go, our local course is nicknamed the Swamp...but there North D you guys got a bit more rain than us...hehe...)
 
Furthermore, as gamers grow older, they're less willing to invest as much time in gaming.

I got to step in on this one. :) It seems the older I get the more time I invest into gaming. I've been playing WoW a lot lately along with CSS and that's just when I get home. At work I'm responsible for VBS2 on Ft. Stewart which is a First Person Shooter built around the Arma engine. So at 50 I'd say I invest a lot of time gaming. ;)

Check out VBS2 here.
 
I have played 3 big name MMOs.

First was Dark Age of Camelot. I liked Daoc because to me it did not feel like a never ending rat race (think WoW). You RVR'd for fun and to get points to be spent on higher abilities. There was limited end-game instances until Trials of Atlantis debuted which filled the game full of stuff you MUST DO (very key) in order to remain competitive in the RVR sectors... the bottom line is it killed the casualness of the game. Before ToA there were gank guilds where most of their members had player crafted items that had been custom spell crafted tailored to their characters' spec. Anyone could get an SC'd set so long as they had enough gold to pay for it; after ToA however, you needed gold and more importantly time in order to compete in RVR.

This time consumption issue brings me to the second MMO I played and still play for the time being... World of Warcraft. Everyone knows World of Warcraft can easily be characterized as a second job. In Classic World of Warcraft you needed 39 other people to raid with in the epic dungeons of Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, Ahn'Qiraj 40 and Naxxramas. Very few guilds got past Blackwing Lair and almost none ventured beyond Ahn'Qiraj 40 before the first expansion (Burning Crusade) came out. At this time all of the dungeons required 40 raiders. Because the raids required so many people it inherently required them to be guilded together - no small guilds raided on their own. If you wanted to raid, your guild either had to absorb smaller guilds to raid (which was frequent and tumultuous) or you had to abandon your smaller guild in favor of a larger one. Now things have changed. WoW no longer requires you to be in a guild that supports a 40 man raid. Raids are only 25 man which most guilds can fill. There is another problem with Wow though, it is based purely on the story line with little room for PVP, thus the PVP that does occur is very gear dependent (the same problem ToA created for DAoC). Thus, the more time you spend the greater rewards you are able to reap. One might argue that everyone can get purples which is true, however in order to get purples you must do X amount of hours in numerous battle grounds (probably surrounded by pre-pubescent morons) or in an arena team or spend hours in heroic dungeons hoping one armor or weapon piece will drop. The bottom line is that you still need to spend many hours in the game before you get acceptably geared.

The third big name MMO I played is Warhammer. Warhammer was made by Mythic Entertainment (same people of DAoC). WAR had a very interesting story line and thus an inherent problem that none of the other MMO's had... a problem with the player's Psychology. There are two factions in WAR, Destruction and Order. There are three races per faction and thus three pairings for the factions (Empire/Chaos, Green Skin/Dwarf, Dark Elf/High Elf). In all of the pairings the forces of the Destruction were the aggressors. They were always attacking the forces of Order on the Order's land. The High Elves were taken as slaves by the Dark Elves and on more than one occasion the Chaos had burned down towns and other buildings belonging to the Empire. This does something terrible to Order players as Keero mentioned in his post - it makes them feel hopeless and encourages them to give up! Another problem WAR had was its looting system was mostly from RVR keep taking. You needed to take keeps to get loot... which meant you needed to be in the right place at the right time to get what you needed which more often than not was a very difficult task to accomplish. What makes WAR different from latter DAOC and WOW is that it (to me anyway) lacked the carrot on a stick feeling. You did not feel coerced into progressing through the game.

None of these games are free. All of them cost $15 a month. Depending on how much and how often you spend on buying or renting games MMO's can be a very good deal for entertainment.

I approve of MMO's in moderation.
 
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First was Dark Age of Camelot. I liked Daoc because to me it did not feel like a never ending rat race (think WoW). You RVR'd for fun and to get points to be spent on higher abilities.
<3 for DAoC RvR.

I remember running into the snow-covered frontier at level 27 and grouping with 7 members of a guild I didn't belong to. (I played a healer class and was fairly competent at it, so getting into a group wasn't difficult.) I remember fighting giant crabs and barely surviving the battles. It was a blast. I just wish I could remember the name of the guild I sometimes grouped with.

At that time, I hadn't looked at any maps for the frontiers. The idea of a "wilderness" area where I could group with others and engage in RvR was thrilling--and, to this day, still one of my favorite MMO experiences.

I was sorely disappointed by WoW's PvP experience. I simultaneously hoped and feared that WAR would revisit the same RvR experience that made DAoC such a great game, but, based on what I've read, it's not the same. Maybe it's the lack of a third faction, maybe it's the (allegedly) declining populations, or maybe DAoC's RvR is just one of those serendipitous moments in gaming that can't be repeated on purpose.

So please don't misunderstand. I don't hate MMOs. I have my issues with WoW, certainly, but I understand just as well as the next MMO player that an open world and game rules properly designed can create a sense of wonder unmatched in other genres.

I'll never forget getting past the castle gates and finding 50+ people preparing to run into the frontier as a massive group. Nothing in WoW compared. Nothing may ever compare again.
 
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