Hescominsoon
CGA\TOJ Hosting Manager
Blank thread?
When do we stop rendering unto Caesar??
- Thread starter Hescominsoon
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The original post and the post following yours are still in moderation and thus will only appear to moderators and administrators. Given the legally sensitive nature of the topic presented, I have decided to leave those posts in moderation at this time.
Not sure how the original post circled back to the thread title (you used to be able to read the first few sentences of the original post by hovering your mouse over the topic in the forums) but I'm interested in the thread title.
Obedience to civil authorities versus obedience to Bible commandments has always been a difficult argument for me because God is the one that sets up and removes Kings (or any authority). If He wanted us not to obey them, why did He place them over us in the first place. If they are so wicked that we are to disobey them, why does He not remove them. There are several examples where obedience to God over obedience to authority is implied but I don't recall a specific example where it was actually performed.
Anyway, I don't see any conditions on Jesus commandment to render unto Ceasar those things which belong to Ceasar so I'd say always. But I haven't given this much thought so I'd like to see other's opinions.
Obedience to civil authorities versus obedience to Bible commandments has always been a difficult argument for me because God is the one that sets up and removes Kings (or any authority). If He wanted us not to obey them, why did He place them over us in the first place. If they are so wicked that we are to disobey them, why does He not remove them. There are several examples where obedience to God over obedience to authority is implied but I don't recall a specific example where it was actually performed.
Anyway, I don't see any conditions on Jesus commandment to render unto Ceasar those things which belong to Ceasar so I'd say always. But I haven't given this much thought so I'd like to see other's opinions.
Off the top of my head underground churches who violate their government. Apostasy is illegal in Iran as well as proselytizing outside of church. I also believe there are restrictions on making new churches which effectively means churches have no means to grow. That's why
you get those illegal house churches. The fact that underground churches have existed throughout history is in direct violation to their governments law.
Then if capitulation to your ruler is absolute the American revolution should be denounced by Christians.
I have wondered though if you have two earthly parties claiming authority over you which do you obey? Governments are just a bunch of people so what keeps a group of people or even an individual just saying "we are a government" any more valid than another. The terrorists holding guns have power over me should I obey? All governments start as rebels anyway, again American revolution. Why should I obey the law of one nation more than another? If I travel between two warring nations does that mean I flip sides? Do I capitulate if taken prisoner? Do I capitulate if my side loses? God put them in power over me.
If God says do it you do it before whatever Cesar wants. So the question is did God tell me to do it? A man cannot have two masters.
I have real life things to deal with now or I would get more involved.
you get those illegal house churches. The fact that underground churches have existed throughout history is in direct violation to their governments law.
Then if capitulation to your ruler is absolute the American revolution should be denounced by Christians.
I have wondered though if you have two earthly parties claiming authority over you which do you obey? Governments are just a bunch of people so what keeps a group of people or even an individual just saying "we are a government" any more valid than another. The terrorists holding guns have power over me should I obey? All governments start as rebels anyway, again American revolution. Why should I obey the law of one nation more than another? If I travel between two warring nations does that mean I flip sides? Do I capitulate if taken prisoner? Do I capitulate if my side loses? God put them in power over me.
If God says do it you do it before whatever Cesar wants. So the question is did God tell me to do it? A man cannot have two masters.
I have real life things to deal with now or I would get more involved.
Kahiel
Active Member
There is a very distinct difference between disobeying civil authorities over an issue of obedience to Scripture or an issue of faith and disobeying civil authorities over an issue you personally disagree with.
For instance, disagreeing with the federal ban on marijuanna is not Scriptural while disagreeing with government sanctioned slavery can be argued to be a Scriptural position.
For instance, disagreeing with the federal ban on marijuanna is not Scriptural while disagreeing with government sanctioned slavery can be argued to be a Scriptural position.
Doesn't Matthew 10:32-39 make underground churches a violation of scripture? Even if participating in worship means death?
Matthew 5:10 states that those who are persecuted for righteousness sake are blessed and the kingdom of Heaven is theirs.
Matthew 5:15-16 states we are to let our light shine before men. Not hide it.
Matthew 5:10 states that those who are persecuted for righteousness sake are blessed and the kingdom of Heaven is theirs.
Matthew 5:15-16 states we are to let our light shine before men. Not hide it.
Patriot
Active Member
I think I would be hard-pressed to find a legitimate scriptural argument against government-sanctioned slavery. The passages that come to mind seem to indicate that, regardless of our human position, we are to serve God (i.e. serve others). Not to say that I am in favor of slavery (other than my personal slavery to Christ).
How is having an underground church denying God before others? These people cannot have a "legal" church so they must meet illegally as Scripture commands (Hebrews 10:25). In my mind, those who deny Him would not bother with meeting in secret.
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Slavery, alcohol, drugs, divorce, homosexuality or any other government sanctioned immoral behavior doesn't mean that as a Christian I have to participate. It is only when forced by government to participate in activities that are against Biblical Doctrine that we must make the decision to follow Christ or obey those appointed over us. Our leaders make many immoral decisions and there are many immoral laws on the books but very rarely are we forced to take part in actions that go against the Bible. Government by definition restricts behavior, not compels it.
An underground Church is a hidden Church. It's not a far stretch to say they are publicly denying they are Christians to save their lives.
An underground Church is a hidden Church. It's not a far stretch to say they are publicly denying they are Christians to save their lives.
Patriot
Active Member
But government can restrict actions that we as Christians are commanded to do. Such as meeting together or spreading the gospel.
And yet it is still a stretch. I find it interesting that the "underground" church often grows much faster than our current "legal" church. Is that due to people hiding their light? Or perhaps, they are merely hiding only from those who seek to extinguish the light. We should not cast our pearls before swine anyhow(Matthew 7:6).
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Well to agree with patriot, you will never gain great heights in the spiritual realm through outward presentation of the gospel but through privately seeking God. I've never met a man who's light didn't come from privatly seeking God. See what your failing to see they my worship in secret, but the practices that come from their worship is being shared through there acts. That's why acts are a requirement of the gospel bc through our private worship and closeness to God increases so does the good work we do. They feed the hungry, pray, take care, and heal the sick through Gods power. I mean I believe that's why the church's overseas are seeing healings, deliverance, etc bc of there fervent private worship. Well that's my take!
Correct. We see this in Daniel. And we see God's people refusing to obey civil authorities. We also see God eventually replace those civil authorities. Which is where my difficulty in resolving the conflict between God's commandment to obey those who have authority over us and His teaching to obey Him first and foremost.
Difference of opinion. I see your point but tend in a different direction.
We tend to live our lives as if this is all we have without realizing that death is the gate to eternity. If those around us see that we no longer fear death and those who can kill the body because we have eternal life in Heaven, what kind of a difference would that make in their lives? What makes a bigger difference, a private life lived for Christ or a public death declaring Christ to all?
Patriot
Active Member
As you say, difference of opinion. I don't see those gathering in secret as cowering in fear for their lives. The mere act of meeting is enough for them to be executed. They are keeping God's command to meet in spite of the government's opposition. To me, that is a very brave thing and I only pray that I have that same courage should the situation ever fall on me.
SKLURB
Called from Darkness Web Developer
That's because there is nothing wrong with slavery.
Look people have a fundamental misunderstanding of sin or right and wrong. Some want to argue there are shades of grey or others want make laws saying never do this ever. Although I can't imagine circumstances for some things both are incorrect. Right and wrong are absolutes but it is the timing and circumstance of an act that determines right or wrong. This is misconstrued as "grey". There is a time and a place for everything under heaven.
Take Slavery
A. Nation 1 hates nation 2 unjustly and attacks it unprovoked, intent on destroying it.
B. Nation 2 wins but is devastated by the attack. It's lost much of it's labor force. It's crops are scorched earth. People will die if it continues this way.
C. The facts here are nation 1 is guilty and if you let them go they will attack you again.
What can you do but occupy and enslave them to rebuild your nation. Today we have a similar, not exact, situation with Islamic nations who harbor terrorists. The difference is we pay for everything, even though we can't afford it, without expecting reparations. Yes we should be merciful but not in perpetuity. If a nation attacks us we are not required to give you your land back but we always seem to. Many only take mercy as a chance to continue their evil ways and that is not being merciful.
If you doubt the legitimacy of slavery. Ask what is the difference between slavery and criminal imprisonment? Both remove your rights. Both can be done unjustly or justly. Both can garner profit from their labor. Rather it was the abuses of and within slavery that meant it had to be outlawed. When you abuse a right you lose it.
Take Torture
A. You are torturing someone for jollies. Wrong
B. You catch a man who you are certain has buried a bus of kids somewhere. To be clear his guilt is positive. You've tried every other means of coercion but the clock is ticking down they will suffocate and die if you don't find them. If I thought it would work I would unequivocally torture him to save those kids.
When you know someone is guilty and is going to continue that act by their silence it is negligent not to use torture. It's not a pretty or easy thing but I can see legitimate circumstance using it. Yet we pass laws saying "torture always bad". Unless laws are enacted by their intent and not letter they will fail. People no longer know why they are following the law so you get legal loopholes and law being applied to serve purposes it was never intended to. Then when you remove God as a basis for law you lose the ultimate reason behind the law's intent.
Take coppa. It was intended to protect children but it also makes lawful good sites, who can't handle the requirements, reject them leaving them to go wherever. Maybe it does some good but I know it is doing some bad. That's because it's the letter not intent of the law being enforced by our government.
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Abba San
Legacy of Elijah [LoE] - Proud Grandfather
Goodness, Gerbil. Do you really believe that slavery and torture are legitimate, "nothing wrong" with them?
Wow. I hardly know how to respond.
Wow. I hardly know how to respond.
Odale
Active Member
If Tek wasn't already involved with this thread and if he hadn't already had plans for it, I'd lock it right now.
The responses thus far are only marginally related to what the OP is saying, granted only a few people can read it.
Neither slavery nor torture are ok, and there will not be a discussion here justifying them - you've been warned.
The responses thus far are only marginally related to what the OP is saying, granted only a few people can read it.
Neither slavery nor torture are ok, and there will not be a discussion here justifying them - you've been warned.
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Oooook but you aren't even going to explain to me so I can understand? I guess that shows how much you care about my spiritual condition.
Odale
Active Member
Gerbil we all care about your well-being and how you are doing in all of your walks of life. I don't want to make it appear that I don't care - that's not what that post was about.
However, you cannot just throw it out there that slavery and torture are "ok" practices (even if the Bible says so).
I'm sorry that my post came across as uncaring or perhaps even mean. But millions of people suffer every day, and hundreds of places on earth are tainted by the use of slavery (like my area
).
I do care bud, but slavery is serious, and deserving of a serious response.
However, you cannot just throw it out there that slavery and torture are "ok" practices (even if the Bible says so).
I'm sorry that my post came across as uncaring or perhaps even mean. But millions of people suffer every day, and hundreds of places on earth are tainted by the use of slavery (like my area
).I do care bud, but slavery is serious, and deserving of a serious response.
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