war in the middle east

[Guest]

ok Atown moved it to a forum just for u.

The thing is the Isralies were moving the palistininens(I know I can't spell) from their homes and moving them to new locations in the start. But later on they just started moving people out of town without a place to relocate. That is y so many muslims go to the west bank to fight back. What would u do if somone came into your town bulldozed it and said u can't live here anymore. U'd fight back. I don't condone the violence but if I was put in the same place I'd try to kill every person who took my home away.
What I don't understand is y Israil would do something like this. Before WW2 Jews, muslims, christians lived in palistine together in peace. Then after WW2 most the jews in europe went to palistine because I guess they felt safe being together. Thats appreciation for u.
Then your fighting to get your home back and u find out these missiles being shot at u are being made in th USA and being sold to your enemy. What would u do.
U would attack the place thats supplieing the weapons. And I heard Bin Laden say in a interview on CNN that all americans are at fault because these missiles are being built using tax money.
As I said before I don't condone it but I see where they are coming from.
Then u have Sadam who america put into power because they thought of him as a friend and that he would then be their ambasador to the middle east. Sadam turns out to be a mad man.

Bin Laden was member of the Soldiers of God(I might be wrong about the name) who were fightong against the russians to take back afghanistan. Who were being supplied their arms by america. And after they kicked the russians out they went to the west bank to help the people out, thats where bin laden saw they were being killed by american weapons. Which is y he's not one of your biggest fans.
So if u look at everything 9/11 would of never happened if america didn't stick their nose in to everyones business.
All they had to do was not take sides but if america didn't act comunism would of taken over the world. It could still happen.
And what did we learn from 9/11, we learned that the only way we would be safe is by attacking everyone we disagree with.
Anyone seen any weapons of mass destruction, they were over here a min ago. Where'd they go.

 

[Atown]

Quote[/b] ]What I don't understand is y Israil would do something like this. Before WW2 Jews, muslims, christians lived in palistine together in peace. Then after WW2 most the jews in europe went to palistine because I guess they felt safe being together. Thats appreciation for u.

know ur history, very few if any jews lived in the land called isreal since it was also controlled by the british. and also if i was palestinian i might fight back but if i was a christian and was moved out i wouldt fight. becuase if i was palentinian i wouldt know the truth.


as far as bin laden is concerned where does he come in on this all?? i dont remember him fightin with palenstinians, i might be wrong but u could post a link to prove me wrong. 9/11 would still have happened maybe not by those exact terrorist but still would have happened. something would still have gone off. and the WOMD honestly there has been illegal deals going on for some time now and even IF there were no WOMD, there was still plenty of incentive to go into Iraq. and ya know what? becuase we "disagreed" with Saddam millions of people are able to say "saddam sucks" and not get killed for it. didt u ever see the vids of one of saddams statues coming down and all the people hittin it with a shoe

? quick thing is that Canadian All Liberal News Network still runnin in canada?

 

[Guest]

There was no Israel was created after the jewish national party came into power in palestine. I don't care if u think god gave them the land, but before there was a israel the jews christians and muslims lived there in peace. The fighting started when they wanted their own state and the british helped them seperate into 2. One arab one jewish state. This was the problem, they tried it india giving pakistan its own country and look what happened. There were more arabs in palistine than jews but atleast before they lived together in peace.
Before everyone in palestine were fin it was after WW2 that jew feared going back to their old towns and so on in europe so they fled to palistine. And the palistineans didn't like the amount of immigrants that were coming in.
It was my bad for saying bin laden fighting it palestine. What happened was after the afghans kicked the russians out of afghanistan, the rebel group that bin laden was in left to the west bank to help the arabs over there with their struggle. Bin laden might not of gone there but his money helped train them and the guys he fought besides him in afghan went over there. So he lost friends, who were killed by american weapons.
Also when israel went in to lebanon to get the PLO out they joined forces with a christian extriemist group with the promise of turning over control to them. They wanted to create a safe wall between israel and the arabs for fear of safty. I think israel always crys about suicie bombers, but the reality is these guys are fighting back for their homes. I don't like the violence but u have to be able to see where their coming from.
Those people that wers screaming sadam sucks are now saying death to americans. Do u think it is right to go start a war with every country that we disagree with. Who's next china, their comunists, and we don't like comunits. Lets go over there and put in a government that we agree with.
Now whats going to happen is after the americans an the british leave, the countries around iraque are going to see a defencless country that has alot of oil. And their going to try to invade iraque. If the americans and the british comes in to stop them there will be more terrorist attacks in america and europe. If they don't step in the muslims extriemist groups are going to use it against them and iraques who are mad at the US for leaving them defenceless are going to join terrorist groups and attack the states. And y was sadam in power, because america helped put him in to power, because they thought he was a smart man and a friend to the states.
How about we leave north america and give it back to the native indians, since it was their land first. The problem is u confuse politics with religion.
Religion shouldn't have anything to do with politics.

So your telling me if I come in to your house and tell u get the hell out of here its my house now. And u have to move into a refugee camp because u don't have anywhere to go. U're going to go in peace or are u going to fight back, and do whatever it takes to get your home back. I guarintee u if that happened to me I would put a bullet in your head without a second thought. Then I would fight till all my neighbors get their houses back. And after that was done I would find every person that was part of taking away my home and kill them.
This is no different than what happened in the movie in braveheart. U take my land I take your head.

 

[Atown]

interesting so ur saying that bin laden trained alot of troops but he isnt a threat?? and also the sucide bombers are promised 70 virgins by alah though i heard he was runnin out

.and at the moment china has NOT made illegal purchase, china has NOT made weapons without us knowing and china does NOT present a threat to other nations. and bout Sadam getting into power, anyone can do it. look at hitler he came from a low backround then became the world known man even to this day, though i heard a survey where %64 of 18-24 year olds dont know who the axis powers were O_O . and depends if u had a weapon, and u invdaded my house. but there is also a difference between national invasion and some idiot tryin to kick a man outa his house. and plus if people are able to say death to america i call that FREEDOM OF SPEECH which is fine. people should be allowed that RIGHT and i feel srry for canada who does not have that right. and also it doesnt matter that God gave isreal to the jews the british did anyways so really it hsa nothin to do with religeon

 

[Guest]

I never said he's not a threat, I said that he wouldn't of declared war against the west if america didn't sell arms to Isrial. He went to afghanistan to help the people get their land back. When they won the group went to palistine. And there's no difference between bin laden training troops in palistine and the allies helping train rebels in czech during WW2. Just depends on what side your on. They're fighting to get their homes back. U're saying that god gave the land to the jews so everyone else is trespassing. But I thought god gave it to the palistines.
And those same people screamind death to america are also becoming suicide bombers.
In the end they will always win because they're willing to give up their life for what they believe in.
I just used China as an example, but we don't know what every country has china could have weapons we don't know about. When India tested their first nuculear missile they kept it a secret, the CIA, MI-5, the mosad didn't know about it till after it happened. People thought japan didn't pose a threat then pearl harbor happened. The thing is u never know. But what Im' trying to say is america likes to have a say in everything and it came back to bite them in the back side.
The CIA is still trying to figure out how 9/11 happened. Thats intelegence for u.

About sadam anyone can do it but he had a helping hand from the USA. Hittler didn't. Bin Laden trained by americans and weapons supplied by the americans to fight the russians.

Incase u don't believe me a little BBC quote for u

His power is founded on a personal fortune earned by his family's construction business in Saudi Arabia.

"Born in Saudi Arabia to a Yemeni family, Bin Laden left Saudi Arabia in 1979 to fight against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
The Afghan jihad was backed with American dollars and had the blessing of the governments of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
He received security training from the CIA itself, according to Middle Eastern analyst Hazhir Teimourian.
While in Afghanistan, he founded the Maktab al-Khidimat (MAK), which recruited fighters from around the world and imported equipment to aid the Afghan resistance against the Soviet army.
Egyptians, Lebanese, Turks and others - numbering thousands in Bin Laden's estimate - joined their Afghan Muslim brothers in the struggle against an ideology that spurned religion."

some NBS quotes
************************
Indeed, to this day, those involved in the decision to give the Afghan rebels access to a fortune in covert funding and top-level combat weaponry continue to defend that move in the context of the Cold War. Sen. Orrin Hatch, a senior Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee making those decisions, told my colleague Robert Windrem that he would make the same call again today even knowing what bin Laden would do subsequently. “It was worth it,” he said.
“Those were very important, pivotal matters that played an important role in the downfall of the Soviet Union,” he said.

Although the mainline American media does not wish to address it for reasons that should be obvious, there is no doubt whatsoever in the minds of many in the American intelligence and political communities that growing Arab hatred for the United States stems with this country's official support of Israel, the genocidal bombing of Iraq and the U.S. military presence in Saudi Arabia.
Israel has an enormous and growing reservoir of weapons of destruction supplied by the U.S. government.
According to sources, the Israeli military is able to obtain weapons from the Pentagon that are forbidden to other nations. If the desired weapons are not forthcoming, the Israeli government simply alerts its very powerful lobby in Washington and the weapons are promptly delivered.
The Palestinians, however, do not have such weapons or lobby and are reduced to attacking invading tanks with AK-47s, rocks and their hands. Their growing frustration has bred an immense sense of anger at America whom they see as supporting their oppression and death at the hands of their bitterest enemies.
But today's savage and motivated Arab terrorists would be nothing if not for the training, support and the weapons supplied by the Central Intelligence Agency.
Osama bin Laden was recruited by the CIA to fight the Soviet occupation troops in Afghanistan. The budding guerrilla leader was trained and supplied by American taxpayers' dollars.
The Taliban is an extremely conservative Muslim movement stemming from the mujahideen, Arab "freedom fighters" who brutally fought Soviet incursions into their mountainous homeland.
*************

quote from Louis Free, former FBI director
"...to recruit, arm and train, and pay, and deploy an army of mercenary volunteers. They were Muslims from all parts of the world, including black American Muslims."
"And the CIA managed the recruiting process. Recruits were sent to Afghanistan, trained under some CIA officers or Pakistani military intelligence officers who were trained by the CIA in the US. There were many former CIA officers in charge of the programme."
********
So bin laden is a thret but a threat america created.

 

[Guest]

sry they were called the holy warriors not the soldiers of god.

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]In the end they will always win because they're willing to give up their life for what they believe in.

Read your Bible more....In the end, they lose. Period. end of story. gg.

Cory

 

[Guest]

its not about religion
they win
I think
They're more dangerous because they are willing to give up their lives for what they believe in. The bible might say one thing but I think in the end if israel doesn't give them back their homes and live in peace together the palistinens will win. End of story.

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]its not about religion
they win
I think
They're more dangerous because they are willing to give up their lives for what they believe in. The bible might say one thing but I think in the end if israel doesn't give them back their homes and live in peace together the palistinens will win. End of story.

If your a Christian, it is about religion. If your not, then I have really no point discussing it with you as you will not see what I am trying to say.

Cory

 

[Guest]

I never said I'm christian. I said I was raised catholic.
The bible could say that but common sence says something different.
But I enjoy debating ideas on here and I'm right now reading the bible and I use the forum to ask questions on things that I don't understand. If u had sadam in power in israel doing the same thing but this time he's a jew, would u still go go israel because the bible said so. Im' going on facts, it has nothing to do with religion.

Quote from atown:

"God gave isreal to the jews the british did anyways so really it hsa nothin to do with religeon "

It has nothing to do with religion. Again I'll say god gave the land to the Palistines. Well thats what it says I think.
We should all move back to europe or asia or africa, and lets give back this land to the native americans.

This thread had nothing to do with religion it was started because I said Bush sucks and I hope Kerry wins. And Atown disagreed. Then I started talking about americas forign policies. Which arn't very good. Thats all.
I like Kerry he's a catholic who's not afraid to say he's for abortion. Like me I'm for giving a person a choice. Plus the only republican I liked was Ike. But he wasn't really a republican, was just for NATO where as the democratic leader at that time wanted to get out of NATO.

 

[Atown]

free choice?? i heard that some peopel were offended while in church in canada...

and if i remember correctly jeremiah 32:18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name,
19 Great in counsel, and mighty in work: for thine eyes are open upon all the ways of the sons of men: to give every one according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings:
20 Which hast set signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, even unto this day, and in Israel, and among other men; and hast made thee a name, as at this day;
21 And hast brought forth thy people Israel out of the land of Egypt with signs, and with wonders, and with a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with great terror;
22 And hast given them this land, which thou didst swear to their fathers to give them, a land flowing with milk and honey.

so yeah God did give the land unto them and revalation says: Revelation 20

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



i can say surely, we win

 

[Guest]

its like reading notstradamus. U could bring up religion all u want that doesn't change the facts.
Do u atleast admit that if the CIA didn't train bin laden to fight against the soviets u wouldn't have 9/11.
If the americans didn't supply weapons to israel u'd stil have 2 towers in NY.
If the americans didn't put sadam in power because they thought he would play a big part in the structure in the middle east, and he was going to be a friend, u wouldn't have troops in Iraque right now getting killed. Anyone know how american troops are getting killed after Bush declared victory in Iraqu.
Hey atleast he got to fly in a Tomcat(I think it was a tomcat) and land on the carrier.
I took a helecopter on to a american carrier before and it was ok, the best thing about it was they have great food in the mess hall and all u can eat ice cream. Sitting in a F-14, holding a very big gun and being on the bridge while it was docking at port was ok too. Other than that it was just like being on a amusment park.

 

[Atown]

dang that musta been fun. and i will admit that if we didt supply 9/11 would not have happened but, some other event would have been written down in history. the way i think bout is Romans 8:28 says: all things work together for the good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose. since thats true and Bush IS a christian i can say confidently even if we've lost what 800 people altogether in iraq, and maybe not have 2 towers, that God is with is who can be against us? quick thing do u think at all the world might be a better place since bush came in?? even though clinton just said in an interview that he had an affair just becuase he could

?

 

[Thaddius]

Joseph,

You are listed as a ToJ member. If you are not a Christian you will be removed from our roster.

Cory

 

[Guest]

ok, I just wanted to join the forum. But does this mean no more Pac Man
I think instead of veing called Thadius. U should be called The Thadster.

 

[Guest]

Who's mocking I've added "ster" to the end of most of my friends name, its a joke. U know funny. U know like the Grantster, The stevester. etc. Thadius will take it as a joke not an insult.
And I really do enjoy playing Pac Man. I used to play the game all the time but then I del it from my comp.
Am I going to be banned for being rude or because u don't agree with my opinion. Because I thiught we were discussing stuff. We might not agree with each other but I respect your opinion.

 

[Guest]

what i used to spend hours infront of a comp playing pac man. And instead of dling the game I can play online.

 

[Jango]

Quote[/b] ]
Those people that wers screaming sadam sucks are now saying death to americans. Do u think it is right to go start a war with every country that we disagree with. Who's next china, their comunists, and we don't like comunits. Lets go over there and put in a government that we agree with.

China is communist and has an approximate ten million strong army. They could invade MUCH of the world with that. Plus, Communism is evil. They deserve to be free.

Quote[/b] ]Now whats going to happen is after the americans an the british leave, the countries around iraque are going to see a defencless country that has alot of oil.

Well, I highly doubt the oil supplies will last another five-ten years, so it's not that big of a deal. Plus, most of the Middle East is Muslim, and so are most Iraqis. Why would they attack fellow Muslims?

Quote[/b] ]
The Afghan jihad was backed with American dollars and had the blessing of the governments of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

Yes, but the USSR needed to come down. Anything we could do to weaken it was worth it. Even if it caused Sept. 11th to happen. I think the fall of the USSR for two thousand dead is a great deal. ( Of course, I'd rather Sept. 11th not happen, yet if the choices are either have the USSR around today, and no Sept. 11th, or no USSR and have Sept. 11th, I'd take the latter. )

Quote[/b] ]
They're more dangerous because they are willing to give up their lives for what they believe in. The bible might say one thing but I think in the end if israel doesn't give them back their homes and live in peace together the palistinens will win. End of story.

Have you ever heard of a "War of Attrition"? If Palestine keeps sending in suicide bombers, and losing men, Israel can go in and easily overwhelm them. End of story.

 

[Guest]

I'm not a communism fan but I don't think we should go into every country we disagree with and change their gove. to what we think is appropriate.
For y would they attack other muslums, first of there are different types of muslums, and they don't always agree. Second y did Sadam try to invade Kuwate(is that how u spell it), for oil. People in Kuwate work 4 hours a day the goverment gives the people enough money so that they don't have to work. Because they have alot of oil.
The USSR was going to fall if they had control of afghan or not. Afghan has always been kind of a safe zone between russia and the rest of Europe. The americans blamed almost everything to communism before. i found it funny when I was watching a program about great bank robberies how Jay edger Hoover thought the Brink bank robbery was done by communists thats y the FBI got involved.
If u are willing to give up the lives of all thso peole in the towers so that Communism in russia will end a few years early, I would probobly never want u in any position in government. Senators and people involved in government back then said they regret their choice of getting involved because of all the lives it cost, but with what info they had they thought russia was a bigger threat than it was. But if they knew that it would cost so many lives in the future they wouldn't of gottin involved.
People from all over the middle east are going over to the west bank and fighting. So its not that easy to win.
The thing is I look at all religions as the same god just talked to them in different ways. U look at it as I'm right and everyone else is wrong. Muslums look at Jesus as a prophit not the son of god. Its someone's perspective. If we were in China u could of banned all other religions and said christianity is right and everything else is wrong, but u're in a democratic country.

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]Senators and people involved in government back then said they regret their choice of getting involved because of all the lives it cost, but with what info they had they thought russia was a bigger threat than it was. But if they knew that it would cost so many lives in the future they wouldn't of gottin involved.

I'm gonna call you on this one. Show us these senetors that said this. I will guaruntee that they are all liberals who were proven to be dead wrong once the soviet union fell. The fall of the soviet union brought forth all sorts of documentation showing that McCarthy, Reagan, and most other anti-communists were right. Stalin and Lenin killed MILLIONS of their own people in the name of socialism. They did it by starvation, very similar to what hitler did to the jews. Yet, people like you don't think the fall of the soviet union was a good thing.

Same thing in Iraq. Sadamn has killed millions of his own people. Torture, starvation, execution, genocide. It was all documented by himself. Yet, you say we were wrong to go in and remove him from power. At least I know where human life ranks in your eyes.

Cory