Tragedy at Virginia Tech

[tjguitarz]

Sorry, but I thought Jesus said "If you hate your brother, you have murdered him in your heart"?

And I seem to recall at least one instance where Jesus most definitely harmed some people(John 2:15), Weazel.

Yes, hate is the one. But here's a proposed scenerio... I'm walking along with my wife one day when a group of thugs jump us. They steal our stuff and then try to hurt us (or worse). I'm immediately filled with hate, pull out my Desert Eagle, and blow them all away. Is that hate justified? In my opinion, it is. Just thinking about someone hurting my wife would be enough to make me trigger happy. I would do anything for her safety.

Also, Jesus didn't harm anyone, rather he flipped out -- for good reason, of course.

 

[Lazarus]

I wouldn't call that "hate" - maybe righteous anger.

TJ - it says Jesus drove the moneychangers out with a scourge of cords. Sounds like some harm was inflicted with it too.

 

[ChickenSoup]

I never said I wouldn't defend myself. I just do not want to kill anyone in the process. If someone is beating me up, I will block thier punches and may throw some back, but I won't pull a gun and shoot them.

Even if they had a gun? Also, you don't have to kill them. just blow off their knee caps and run away.

 

[Strong Fortress]

Sorry, but I thought Jesus said "If you hate your brother, you have murdered him in your heart"?

And I seem to recall at least one instance where Jesus most definitely harmed some people(John 2:15), Weazel.

This is what the verses say: "13When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!" (John 2:13-16) Jesus used the whip of cords on he sheep and cattle what the men were selling at the temple, not on the people. To the people, he yelled at them and told them to leave. Jesus never harmed one man or woman.

If anyone tried to hurt my family, I would kill them and throw them into the dark Abyss (5th trumpet in Revelation, chapter 9).

When you kill someone for harming you, it is revenge, not justice. Revenge is hate, which is a sin. Revenge is Never justified in the sight of God. Also, if you kill that person, you are taking it out of God's hands and making the decision yourself on what punishment that person deserves.

Even if they had a gun? Also, you don't have to kill them. just blow off their knee caps and run away.

That is a good point, you do not have to kill. I still don't like guns though.

Even if its life or death, or the safety of your family is at stake?

That is correct, I would not kill. My wife and I have both accepted Jesus Christ. If we die, we will go to Heaven. This is not to say I am so eager to die that I will be careless. I won't just wonder around on the bad side of town for no reason. If it comes between a man killing me or my wife and me killing that man, I would not kill him. If we die we go to Heaven. If he dies, it most likely will be that he goes to Hell. And, he deserves to go to Hell, but you know what, so do I because of my sins. God granted me Grace to be forgiven of my sins. I'd rather die now and give that person more time to come to accept Jesus.

One last note. I am disturbed by the violent thoughts and beliefs among this group of Christians. Jesus preached Love, not Hate. He preached Grace, not Revenge. He taught us not to judge others, but to let him judge them, if not before death, then after death. I also saw a verse of the Bible taken out of context. I would encourage everyone when quoting a verse to read all the context around it. Most of all, I pray that God would change hearts here to be hearts of Love, not of Hate. Weazel said it right when he said Jesus taught us not to hurt others because it is the same as Hating them which Jesus said is like murdering them in your hearts. Hate is always a sin. Jesus never hated ANYONE. If He did, he would not have died for us all.

 

[ChickenSoup]

One last note. I am disturbed by the violent thoughts and beliefs among this group of Christians.

You make self defense look evil, really.

That is a good point, you do not have to kill. I still don't like guns though.

Skeet (spl?) shooting, hunting, etc., is just too fun and exciting for me, but I understand the reasoning why you wouldn't want a gun, what with the danger and violence associated with it.

 

[1337 3.14]

Their is a difference between fear and respect, many people fear guns because of what they do. I own several firearms which I occasionally bring to the range to shoot. I have the utmost respect for what a gun can do and take precautions to make sure that nothing will happen. I view guns as a tool, much like a shovel. Sure they can be used to kill someone, but so can a shovel :\

 

[tjguitarz]

When you kill someone for harming you, it is revenge, not justice. Revenge is hate, which is a sin. Revenge is Never justified in the sight of God. Also, if you kill that person, you are taking it out of God's hands and making the decision yourself on what punishment that person deserves.

I was talking about mid-assault, not after the fact.

If it comes between a man killing me or my wife and me killing that man, I would not kill him.

I'll be honest, I find this thinking 100% juvenile. How could you not do whatever you could to protect your wife, the person you hold above all others (save Christ)? I'd say more, but anything I type seems to sound like an insult.

 

[a_sigint_ninja]

One last note. I am disturbed by the violent thoughts and beliefs among this group of Christians. Jesus preached Love, not Hate. He preached Grace, not Revenge. He taught us not to judge others, but to let him judge them, if not before death, then after death. I also saw a verse of the Bible taken out of context. I would encourage everyone when quoting a verse to read all the context around it. Most of all, I pray that God would change hearts here to be hearts of Love, not of Hate. Weazel said it right when he said Jesus taught us not to hurt others because it is the same as Hating them which Jesus said is like murdering them in your hearts. Hate is always a sin. Jesus never hated ANYONE. If He did, he would not have died for us all.

I don't understand why you assume that shooting someone would involve hating them. For me, I would likely do so because I loved and thus wished to protect someone else.

 

[Lazarus]

Well, I've seen this happen before. Dunno if anyone is really "right", but I don't think talking about it any further will accomplish much.

 

[inkelis]

Self defense and the defense of others is in our nature. God created us that way. It's the same with animals. If it came down to us (Me and my Wife) or them (The killers), i would have no problem whatsoever killing them (It sounds harsh, but really it's not.). As far as giving them a chance to turn to the Lord later? I think that is between them and God. I am in no way pushing judgement upon them, simply protecting my own. I believe that it was the same with the israelites, kill or be killed, i don't think they did it with hate. Simply self defense. That is just my 2 cents.

 

[ChickenSoup]

I think the main thing you'd be feeling as you whip out your pistol at the would-be assailant is fear/anxiety above hate. I mean, the guy's about to charge you and your family... you're bound to react that way more than thinking "I REALLY HATE THIS GUY HOW COULD HE DO THIS I SHALL SEND HIM TO JUDGEMENT!

RAR!"

 

[Dark Virtue]

I wouldn't call that "hate" - maybe righteous anger.

TJ - it says Jesus drove the moneychangers out with a scourge of cords. Sounds like some harm was inflicted with it too.

"Cast out" in Matt 21:12 comes from the Greek word ekballo. The first definition listed under that word is, "1) to cast out, drive out, to send out a) with notion of violence". There are, of course, plenty of other definitions, but none that fit the context.

 

[tjguitarz]

"Cast out" in Matt 21:12 comes from the Greek word ekballo. The first definition listed under that word is, "1) to cast out, drive out, to send out a) with notion of violence". There are, of course, plenty of other definitions, but none that fit the context.

What a beast! That's awesome info. Where'd you get it? I've been wanting to link material I've been reading back to the Greek texts, but I dunno how

 

[Avesther]

Alot of talk about what-ifs here. My experience with what-ifs is that we tend to put forward a solution that is what we would like to be like in said situation, but often, its not the case when faced with the reality of a situation. We don't know how we would react in such a situation. We may find those who are resolved now to not be violent be the ones who that tear somebody limb from limb. Meanwhile all those who would talk about being quick to draw, be the ones who become paralized and unable to do anything.

Unless you have actually faced the situation of staring down the barrel of a gun with the ultimatum "I kill your wife and spare you so you may live with the fact you did nothing for the rest of your life, or I will kill you and rape your wife and let her live with the knowledge you did nothing." (Granted very worst case scenerio but this is the land of what-ifs right?), how do you know how you would react?

I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts that most of those kids who were injured or killed at Virginia Tech at one point in their lifes, from watching about all the terrorists on TV, and watching 9-11 over and over, thought and said to their friends in discusion "Hey, if I were in a similar situation I would do this" (what ever this may have been) and then found themselves in that situation and did not do it?

Had somebody in the first round of shooting stood up and did something, how would that have effected the rest of the day? Had the passangers in the flight on 9-11 that crashed in the countryside not violently stoodup to their captives, how would that have effected the rest of the day?

Violence for the sake of violence is wrong. Violence for selfish reasons is wrong. Violence for personal vengence is wrong. Was the violience the passangers on said flight did wrong if one can surmise that without it, even more lifes would have been lost? Was doing nothing in the morning at Viriginia Tech when the gunman was shooting kids in the dormitories right? When is violence in a situation right, when is it wrong? When is non-violence right and when is it wrong?

Would you recognize it when staring down the barrel of gun?

The most honest answer I can come up with is: I don't know how I would react, I can only hope that at that time I would know what is the right course of action and then that I would be able to follow through on it.