This ones for Timor

[mrpopdrinker]

I dont have alot of time so I am only going to answer one point. God doesent murder he punishes. I have to leave for chicago and will not get much sleep so I am sorry I cannot provide a better answer at this time. I am sure others will cover for me though.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (Rand NobleBlade @ Oct. 02 2003,8:57)]

(I'm a basketball fan so...)
The Lakers pray to God that they will beat the Bulls.
The Bulls pray to God that they will beat the Lakers.

So what does God do?

A. Chooses one team, perhaps based on their devotion. But we are talking a team here...so is it the sum total of belief/goodness? (I only expect an answer here if you believe that God directly intervenes and helps Shaq make the winning free throw (now THAT would be a miracle, LOL)).

or

B. Lets it be decided on ability alone. In other words, without him interfering, the best team wins.

Likewise, is it possible that God just didn't do anything on 9-11 because of a similar reason? Not because we are an evil nation, but because he just doesn't bother with stuff like that?

As far as us being an evil nation:

We have supported Israel for decades. Even Clinton supported the nation. Should that not count for something? I mean, what happened to the whole thing about God supporting nations that support Israel?

The real irony is that our support for Israel is one of the reasons bin Laden did it. He also did it because we are, in his opinion, an evil nation. (Nice to see so many Christians agreeing with him...shows that Christians and Muslims (and Jews for that matter) are not that different.)

Secondly, I am an historian. I would like you to tell me when we were a "Christian" nation. The founding fathers were not Baptists nor were they Catholics. They were, for the most part, Deists and Unitarians. But you know what? That doesn't even matter. The REAL point is that they looked at Europe and saw how people were killed in wars and persecuted for religion. So, they worked up a clause holding that the nation could not impose a religion. That includes Christianity.

So, basically...
1-when were we a Christian nation?
2-considering that we have had mainstream Protestant Christians in the Whitehouse since Carter (including the good Christian George W. Bush), what must we do?

Now, on to your other points.

Quote[/b] ]so have we chosen to have a government that has no place for God.

Really? Name our last atheist president. Kennedy doesn't count.

Quote[/b] ]It is a simmple truth, our country has rejected God.

Really? What happened to the 90+% of God fearing Americans that most Christians love to trot out? Why are they only there when someone dares to suggest that the 10 commandments don't belong in an alabama courthouse, or that the pledge should go back to "One nation, indivisible" like it originally was?

Quote[/b] ]not only have we told God that we don't want his guidence

Really? When did that announcement come out?

Quote[/b] ]we are also lessening our support for Isreal, his chosen people.

Can you back that one up?
PERHAPS if the quit killing Palastinians...
Also, do you see a difference between not supporting Israel and being their enemy? Or no?

Quote[/b] ]Our nation Prospered since its inception becasue we offered a safe have for peopel to practice religion as they saw fit, including the Jews.

And Hindus, and Muslims, and Daoists, and Buddhists, and...atheists.

Quote[/b] ]And during World war two our country provided a safe haven for the Jewish people

Please tell me you are kidding. We locked our doors to Eastern European Jews.

Check out Henry Ford sometime. He was quite anti-semitic.

Quote[/b] ]the past decade our country has tride to broaker treaty after treaty that would devide up the land God gave the isrealites.

Try again. How long?

Quote[/b] ]and the peopel who seek the land also seek the destruction of Isreal.

Wow. I had no idea that the Palastinians were an invading army.

Correct me if I am wrong, but were they not there as well, before the majority of European and American Jews entered the state of Palestine?

Know what? I would suggest you read up on the Balfour Declaration. Here's a start: http://www.mideastweb.org/mebalfour.htm

Quote[/b] ]Isreal will always stand.

Even without US support? Then why do they need our support?

Quote[/b] ]These words come from a deep love for my country and a desire to see it become great agian.

Yeah. Too bad we have those horrid leaders who denounce Christ, Like GW Bush.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Oct. 02 2003,9:30)]I dont have alot of time so I am only going to answer one point. God doesent murder he punishes. I have to leave for chicago and will not get much sleep so I am sorry I cannot provide a better answer at this time. I am sure others will cover for me though.  

Good.

The parts I quoted were not God stiking people dead, but were people killing in his name.

So were the crusades god punishing? Why or why not?

How about now? Invading Iraq? I mean, here we are, such a wicked nation to deserve such an attack, yet we are posturing on how holy and Christian we are.

So what was God punishing people for? They dared to live in Israel? So they deserved to die. Not peacefully co-exist. Not be bought out. Nice.

Also, I question whether you even read the passages. How can you justify soldiers killing everyone including children.

Of course, that is much better than what they did later...you know, killing everyone except the virgins.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (timor @ Oct. 02 2003,4:20)]Big J does have a point.

And I said that I'm pro-life, I don't like the murder either, but I'm just saying, its an interesting theological paradox, eh? Live and possibly be damned, or die and live

Thanks.

You know, when God orders it, it is justified to do anything. Yet, when someone says God told them to snipe people, they disbelieve.

So if a guy says that God told him to kill an abortion doctor...and he does...would you believe him?

 

[mrpopdrinker]

As far as the crusades I dont know much about them so I cant say much. Exodus was God not people. Notice how God gave Pharaoh was given many chances to let God's people Go. Also concerning what you said about the book of Exodus you should read it and you will see it was punishment. as far as Joshua I dont feel like reading the whole book right now but. From what I can tell that was the land promised to them by God the people who had taken it over would not give it to them so God gave it to them and took it by force. I will read the book of Joshua later and maby revise this if I am wrong. The daughter of babylon is part of the satanic trinity I think. No killing an abortion docter is murder. We are not invading Iraq we are liberating it. Unless of course you like the ideas of rape and tourture rooms and making people drink gasoline and shooting bullits at them untill they catch on fire. As far as your baseball analogy I am not God therefore I suggest you ask him.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Oct. 04 2003,6:39)]

Quote[/b] ]As far as the crusades I dont know much about them so I cant say much.

Christians from Europe invade the Holy Land and proceed to kill so many people that the streets literally ran with blood.

Quote[/b] ]Exodus was God not people.

And? God killed everyone's firstborn. He even killed the firstborn animals. But anyway.

Quote[/b] ]Notice how God gave Pharaoh was given many chances to let God's people Go.

I also notice God hardened his heart after he said for Moses to take the people and go. God wanted to show off.

Quote[/b] ]Also concerning what you said about the book of Exodus you should read it and you will see it was punishment.

I have read it.
I'll put it like this: I have no problem with a person defending a deity that strikes down wrongdoers. But, how can you defend a deity that strikes down the firstborn children of a farmer that has nothing whatsoever to do with pharoah? Even better, a slave's child. Please tell me how you can justify:

1-God's killing innocent children, whose parents did nothing wrong, except be born Egyptian.

2-God hardening Pharoah's heart, then punishing everyone.

Please don't do the whole "everybody is sinful" type argument. If that is the case, then God should just kill everybody.

Face it, God kills arbitrarily, and you are no better defending him than are followers of Charles Manson. Also, Exodus makes it very clear that God does not grant us free will, else he never would have hardened his heart.

Quote[/b] ]as far as Joshua I dont feel like reading the whole book right now

It's short.

Here:

Joshua 6

Quote[/b] ]21 They devoted the city [Jerico] to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it-men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

Joshua 10

Quote[/b] ]28 That day Joshua took Makkedah. He put the city and its king to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it. He left no survivors. ...
29 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Makkedah to Libnah and attacked it.
30 The LORD also gave that city and its king into Israel's hand. The city and everyone in it Joshua put to the sword. He left no survivors there. ...
31 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Libnah to Lachish...
32 The LORD handed Lachish over to Israel, and Joshua took it on the second day. The city and everyone in it he put to the sword, just as he had done to Libnah.
...
34 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Lachish to Eglon...
35 They captured it that same day and put it to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it, just as they had done to Lachish.
36 Then Joshua and all Israel with him went up from Eglon to Hebron and attacked it.
37 They took the city and put it to the sword, together with its king, its villages and everyone in it. They left no survivors. Just as at Eglon, they totally destroyed it and everyone in it.
38 Then Joshua and all Israel with him turned around and attacked Debir.
39 They took the city, its king and its villages, and put them to the sword. Everyone in it they totally destroyed. They left no survivors. They did to Debir and its king as they had done to Libnah and its king and to Hebron.

Please feel to tell me if I took it out of context. Look, would you give your house to me if I told you God promised my great-great-*-grandfather that I could have it?

There is *no* justification for slaughtering everyone.

Quote[/b] ]From what I can tell that was the land promised to them by God the people who had taken it over would not give it to them so God gave it to them and took it by force.

See above.

Quote[/b] ]The daughter of babylon is part of the satanic trinity I think.

OK, that is a new one (or at least the term is). What is the satanic trinity?

Quote[/b] ]No killing an abortion docter is murder.

Thank you.

Glad to see we agree on that point.

Quote[/b] ]We are not invading Iraq we are liberating it.

Uh huh. Look, we (the US) have had a very sketchy past as far as "liberating" countries. We tend to put a right wing dictator in power, because it is better than a country going commie.

Quote[/b] ]Unless of course you like the ideas of rape and tourture rooms and making people drink gasoline and shooting bullits at them untill they catch on fire.

Um, are you aware that we supported Saddam Hussain? If it was such a pressing need to topple his government, why didn't we do so after the first gulf war? Why aren't other countries lining up behind us on it?

It's ironic that you denounce Hussain's torture, but you claim that Palestinians deserve to be killed for occupying Israel.

Quote[/b] ]As far as your baseball analogy I am not God therefore I suggest you ask him.

Why? Seriously, I asked God, and he didn't respond. So, I'm asking you & the other Christians on here.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

You dont have faith so God wont respond.  

Even though his heart was hardend he could still let them go although I see your point I am going to reserach this more. If I remember correctly God gave everyone the ability to put the blood of a lamb on their door post. I am assuming we supported him under a different president? As far as the satanic trinity let me do my best to explain. The first member is Lucifer or satan himself, the second member is the antichrist, the thirst member is the false prophet. These three will come during the tribulation and decieve many. I will go into more detail later if you would like. I know I left out some points but it is late here and I am tired as I am sure you know I just got back from a long trip. Also here is a link to a discussion we had at ZB regarding the satanic trinity. Satanic trinity debate. Also BigJ you may wish to register there seeeing as how you enjoy debating theology/christianity.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Oct. 04 2003,8:45)]I am assuming we supported him under a different president?

As far as the satanic trinity let me do my best to explain. The first member is Lucifer or satan himself, the second member is the antichrist, the thirst member is the false prophet. These three will come during the tribulation and decieve many.

I will check out the other board later.

Yeah, under Reagan. I'm not sure about under Bush Sr (pre-gulf war, obviously). I do know he was depicted as a pro-western leader up until he invaded Kuwait.

Thanks for the info on the satanic trinity. I'd never heard it like that before.