There's always a mechanism

tjguitarz

New Member
What is God doing in your life and how do you know it is him? How do you know it is not a consequence of your own actions?

If God ever called you to do something, how did you know it was him and not your own desires?

What can you point to in your life and say, "That's God" and not be able to rationalize it through a mechanism?
 
Sure, I'll give you one. Now, you'll have to take my word for it.

When I was a kid, I used to love to run. I'd run about 4 hours a day, I suspect. Mostly barefoot.

When I was about 9 years old the arches in my feet collapsed. In addition, my ankles became quite weak...

When I was 12 years old, I started going to a doctor to get orthotics. I was told that if I wore them faithfully and got new ones every year, by the time I was 16 I would never have to wear them again.

When I was almost done my treatment, disaster struck. The doctor screwed up one of the orthotics and wouldn't admit it. Second & third opinions and even cobblers said that the insole wasn't made properly, but the doctor just kept with it. By the time the next set was made, the damage had been done -- I was now being told I'd never get off the orthotics, that I would wear them for my whole life.

Now, to add some details, my feet and ankles would get very sore if I stood still without the othotics on. I wouldn't be able to last through doing the dishes without wearing the orthotics -- I'd have to wear shoes or sandals in the house constantly if I wanted to be able to stand.

A few years later (I'd say when I was 20? 21?) I finally became sick of the whole situation. Having to swap my orthotics from one shoe to another all the time just started grating on me. So that night I went to the Bible study I was attended and asked for prayer. I figured that whatever lesson my feet were supposed to teach me was well learned by now, and that if there was no further lessons or reasons for the foot problems, I didn't think that the Lord Jesus wanted me to keep going forward with this issue.

Halfway through the prayer, I pulled my feet up into an upright position. This was not weird; I had to do that constantly because the ankles would let go. What was different this time was that the ankles did not let go; they held on.

Soon after that, I found that I was in more pain wearing my orthotics than not. So I took them out and have lived a number of years without them.

I suppose I learned one more lesson from my feet: I never doubt God's existence or working in my life for very long anymore, since whenever I do, I go back to my feet.

I really can't rationalize this story through a mechanism, although some people may stretch to try do so.
 
I went on a mission trip a few years ago... before I really understood what it meant to be a Christian. I hadn't made a confession of faith, hadn't been baptized, never read the Bible, etc. Tim, my partner at work just asked if I would come along to chaperon. At the time, my wife's faith was a bit weak, and she was on my case about going. To be honest, I couldn't explain why I even wanted to go. I just felt like it was something I had to do. (Looking back, it was completely a "God thing.")

The very day that we got there, I noticed a homeless person in the alley behind the church we were staying in. As we were carrying in everyone's stuff, I just kept noticing this guy. He didn't approach us, he didn't seem to notice or care that we were there, carrying around all this stuff, laughing, carrying on, and having a good time.

About an hour later, we had our introduction class, where the host talks about street safety, what to expect during the week, the projects we were going to be working on, the church that we were there to help, the basics of the community, etc. About 15 minutes in, I kept hearing a voice in my head that repeated "feed him" over and over. It was quiet at first, but kept getting louder as I tried to ignore it. I thought I was losing my mind. But it got louder and louder, to the point that all I could hear in a room full of people was "FEED HIM! FEED HIM! FEED HIM!" being repeated, as if someone was standing right in front of my face screaming at the top of their lungs.

I was completely freaked out at this point, certain that I was crazy. But I basically made a deal....with myself? I thought to the voice in my head that if it would stop, I would go ask the host about getting food for the homeless guy in the alley. Immediately the voice went silent. I was still terrified at this point to say anything to anyone. Since I hadn't read the Bible, I didn't know that God could still speak to people like that... but I kept my "promise". I told the host what I experienced, and asked what I should do. She chuckled a little and said, "I suppose you should go down to the kitchen and get him something to eat."

So I got some food, took it to the man, and offered it to him. He looked like it meant all the world to him to have a few pieces of fruit, grain bars, and a glass of clean water to drink. Unfortunately, I knew I was short on time, so I didn't strike a conversation with him. But it felt so awesome to find someone that was actually in need, and make a difference.

What really messed with me, even after the voice in my head... was that nobody else from our group ever saw this guy. 25 of us walked past him half-a-dozen times, and I was the only person that saw him. That had to be another "God thing".

----

Later that week, we had a day titled "ATL" on the schedule. They didn't prep us (those that had been there before knew what was coming, but didn't bother to let the rest of us in on what was going to happen). We all met down in the common area and they explained that "ATL" stood for Ask The Lord. We had an open day on the schedule that was meant to do whatever it was we felt God was moving us to do.

I was scared. I mean, really scared. Here I was, not even really a Christian, and I was supposed to ask God to "show" me what to do? And I was to expect an answer? Ugh.

But we had this big group prayer time that lasted about 10 minutes. We asked for God to give us each an idea of what we were supposed to do. I prayed, and I meant it. I was expecting to hear something again. Or maybe get an urge to go back to the soup kitchen, or....something. Instead, I got an image in my head of this weird set of stairs. It was a set of old stairs, leading up to a building. They were on the corner, and they were rounded so they were wide at the bottom, narrow at the top - and they were covered in little pebbles. There was a block wall on each side, with a dirty-looking handrail. The third step up from the bottom had a chunk missing. My description doesn't do it justice, but I can still picture the stairs clearly in my mind.

But anyway, everyone got something different. One person heard water, Kyle felt like he was supposed to stay and read the Bible, Andrew saw the word "LOVE", one person saw the subway tunnel, one person saw a fountain, one person heard a crowd of people... So we tried to make sense of what each of us were told. The leaders told Kyle to stay back and read, and decided that the rest of us would take then subway downtown to where the most people would be. We assumed that the subway trains were (#1) on the list of things God was leading us to. It would be a giant puzzle that all fit together - everyone had a different piece, but it all would fit together for....something.

Now before I go further into what happened, it is important to the OP's questions to understand something very important. Many of us had never been to this city, even some of the ones that had been there had never been to parts of the city that we were going to go to that day. I had never been there - I was 400 miles from home, in a strange city, experiencing things I couldn't understand, wondering the whole time if I had lost my mind. That was my perspective leading up to the prayer session at 10am on Friday morning. Because to me, being a Christian was all about being "holier than thou", going to church every Sunday and being bored through a sermon... then throwing a couple of bucks in a plate before going back to living life however they wanted.

Back to the story. As we walked to the train, I was watching for stairs. A lot of them were similar, but none we just right. This picture was so clear to me that I assumed that I had seen the stairs before, and it was just another step to getting to where we were supposed to go. But nothing... So we get on the train and head downtown. Immediately after leaving the subway station, we start hearing water (piece #2). As we came out, we were looking right at a fountain (piece #3). As we looked around to decide which way to go, we saw a giant piece of 3d art that said LOVE (piece #4). So we walked to the square where it was located... as we got closer, we heard the din of the crowd (piece #5). At this point, we all stopped and tried to figure out what to do next. One person (Jonathan) said he couldn't explain it, but he felt like we were supposed to go one direction (piece #6). Another person, nearly the same time, felt like we were supposed to go another direction. So we broke up into two groups and headed out. I went with Jonathan's group so there would be enough adults in each set.

Now from this point, I can't tell you what happened with the other sub-group. My head was swimming from what was happening with my group. Cody had been very quiet to this point, but said he got some weird feeling about playing board games. He was in the same boat I was - his faith was being stretched by everything going on. But as we walked the way that Jonathan felt he was being led, we ended up in the center of downtown, where a concrete park had been set up... full of classic board game pieces (piece #7). So we stopped and played a few minutes. We set back out as John and I still hadn't figured out what our things were all about. John saw a set of chevrons... similar to the ones you might see on a military uniform (although he said they were upside down and red, instead of green or black). We saw a sign down the street for a military recruiting center (couldn't tell you which branch of the military, at this point), so we went down to where that was... but John said the chevrons on the door weren't right. As we looked around, I noticed a parking garage, with flashing red lights on an arrow board that marked the entrance. When I pointed them out, he got all excited and said that was the picture had had envisioned - piece #8. We start walking the 3 or 4 blocks to the parking garage (with no idea what we were going to do next) and we pass a church. Not a big deal in the city.... until I look back, and I see the third step is broken, on the left side of the rounded stairs, coated in pebbles, with a dirty-looking handrail.

I froze. I'm sure I looked like a fool - standing there with my mouth agape, just staring at the broken spot on the stairs. These were the stairs. These were my stairs. Piece #9. I wasn't crazy after all. But I was confused. How could I have seen these stairs in my head? I had never been there before. It wasn't a big church... just a little building in the center of town where the skyscrapers loomed over head.

So the group stopped and waited on me. I would guess that I stood there for about 5 minutes. I finally snapped out of it, and asked if anyone else saw, heard, or felt anything... nobody... so we stopped, offered a prayer of thanks for leading us to that point, asking what we were supposed to do next. Nothing. I looked at my watch, got a little nervous because we were a long way from the meeting point, and we didn't have much time. So we hurried back, my mind reeling the whole time.

It was weird for me. I wanted God to use me, to do something with me, show me something... and for a while, I felt let down because God took us all the way to that church, and then the trail just ended. I wondered if the group split up wrong and someone else was supposed to come with us? I wondered if we took too long to get there and missed whatever we were supposed to do? Several possibilities ran through my head.

When we met back up with the other half of the group, we got on the train to head back out to where we were staying, everyone excited about what was going on. But I was still confused. It must have been pasted all over my face, because Debbie (Tim's wife) asked me what was bothering me. So I told her about what happened with our group. She already knew where I was, spiritually. We had talked a lot about it during the week. I hadn't said much to anyone besides Tim & Debbie, but I got the feeling that they all knew. But while we were sitting there talking about that day's events, she stopped and (I assume) prayed for a moment. She opened her eyes and asked, "Have you considered that God took you to those stairs, just to prove that He is real?"

Of course not.

This was, in essence, a series of real-life mini-miracles with no other simple explanation. Sure, I could have been set up, but the other people that hadn't been there - they seemed as genuinely surprised as I had been to see and hear their actual places/sounds. And they were as convinced as I was that they had seen/heard the exact thing a few hours before, 10 miles away in an old church fellowship hall. God had lined up miracle after miracle - nine of them, in fact - just to prove to me how real and powerful He really is. And that He does speak to us. And that He does grant us visions. And that He can speak to our hearts to lead us where He wants us to go. And that He can do anything, but chooses to use us.

While were were downtown, all I wanted to know was "What next?" I was so firmly grounded in my unfaithfulness, that I couldn't even see that I was the point. I was the mission that He put us to. I was the task. I was the goal to be reached. I didn't reach Him, He reached me.

How did I know that it was God working, and not something of my own desire? I had no desire to go with a bunch of teenagers on a trip, leave my wife at home for a week, and sing campfire songs, get preached at, serve dinner to the homeless, or wander lost around downtown Philly. Left to my own desires, I would have been home in my cozy bed, avoiding the summer heat in my air conditioning, eating takeout from one of my favorite restaurants. That's how I knew it was God taking control of everything.
 
How do you support your story's origin (from God) when individuals from all religions claim to have had a divine experiences of their own?
 
How do you support your story's origin (from God) when individuals from all religions claim to have had a divine experiences of their own?
They don't need to. You are essentially asking them to prove God's existence. If someone is unwilling to believe the Bible or the very existence of creation around them, there is no point in trying to prove God's existence with mere human understanding. With a proper Biblical worldview, all experiences are either directly from God or allowed by Him.
 
I think that our God is reaching out to them. They've all at least heard of Christianity, even if they don't really know what we believe.

The Bible tells us that in the end, we all submit to Him. I think that even though we are broken and sinful, there is still a piece of us that recognizes Him. Perhaps the people in other religions that have a divine experience are truly feeling our God working on their lives, but are choosing to ignore parts of it.

For example, I don't know why it took me traveling to another city for God to reach out to me like He did. I suppose that while I was here at home, I built up walls, and found ways to explain away anything that I didn't want to acknowledge or deal with. So whenever God had been blessing me or reprimanding me, I took it was karma, luck, nature...whatever I wanted to believe in at the time. But putting me out there in a new place forced me to re-evaluate how I responded to God.

Maybe those other people just need to do the same. I don't know.
 
The first time I heard the voice of God I belonged to a different religion, but I knew without a doubt when it happened that this was the REAL GOD so I switched my worldview accordingly. It still took a long time before I got saved after that because I needed someone to help me understand that part of it, but I had no problem recognizing the real thing when I encountered it even though I believed in different things at the time, so I suspect this is true of others too.
 
The first time I heard the voice of God I belonged to a different religion, but I knew without a doubt when it happened that this was the REAL GOD so I switched my worldview accordingly. It still took a long time before I got saved after that because I needed someone to help me understand that part of it, but I had no problem recognizing the real thing when I encountered it even though I believed in different things at the time, so I suspect this is true of others too.
Your story reminds me of an excerpt from The Last Battle, the last book of The Chronicles of Narnia. I won't go into details (not because I'm lazy, but because I don't want to post spoilers), but C.S. Lewis recognized that not all religions are 100% wrong and even Christianity is not 100% correct; however, Christianity is, by far, the most correct.

I believe there are many people who are seeking truth, but take a detour before finding Christ.
 
In what way(s) is Christianity incorrect?

When it becomes religion, dogmatic, traditional. Christ doesn't want us falling into a faith of law, but one that works apart from it. I think that might have been what Tek was saying, considering C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity
 
When it becomes religion, dogmatic, traditional. Christ doesn't want us falling into a faith of law, but one that works apart from it. I think that might have been what Tek was saying, considering C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity
Faith in the law (or of law) is not Christianity. Tek7 said that "Christianity" is not 100% perfect.
 
Christianity certainly does have it's sticky points. Take Faith v Works as an example

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Romans 8:39
neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

Matthew 18:18
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

The first says that aside from our faith, it doesn't matter what we do - we become saved. The second says that it doesn't matter what we do, we are always protected. Yet the 3rd and 4th seem to indicate that there is more required of us than simple faith. Imagine a person that believes that Jesus is what we believe that He is.... but does nothing with that belief. He has bound nothing on Earth - Matthew 18:18 seems to indicate that the man will have nothing loosed for him in Heaven. Does that mean he has no place at all? James' text ends with the question - "Can such faith save him?" I believe the unstated part of the question is "from being eternally separated from God?" ie, from Sheol, "the pit".... Hell?

Revelation 3:16
So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
It would seem that could be the case, that more than simple faith is required.

But the fact of it is, we could quote scripture back and forth all day long and still have opposing opinions. There's a reason that some denominations believe that cremation condemns you. Suicide, abortion, divorce, wearing a dress, not wearing a dress, shaving a beard, not getting baptized, public confessions of faith.... they're all sticky points that we don't agree on.

But the main problem is that MAN is the one trying to figure out what we're supposed to do, how we're supposed to act...

Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Jesus was telling us that nothing has changed, and yet the world was so messed up that God needed to step in and correct us. The Jewish religious leaders of the day were completely backwards. Is it not likely that we're making some of the same mistakes?

Not God.

Us.

Christians.

Following the tenants of the Christian church.

I am not so egotistical to think that me or my church has it 100% correct. However, I think we're on the right path. I believe that God is pointing us in the right direction through Jesus' sacrifice and leaving us with the Spirit... it's just a matter of me making mistakes when I'm not listening completely upon God for direction.
 
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What is God doing in your life and how do you know it is him? How do you know it is not a consequence of your own actions?

I think God, just like an individual, has certain traits. When you see those traits in your life I think you can safely assume, or know, that God is interacting with you and working in your life. When you get to know someone you get a better understanding of who they are, how they act, perhaps why they do it. God is no different.
As far as consequences of one's/my own actions.. it is likely is some cases, but I don't think so in others. Recently I wrote in my journal the impacts God has had on my life and the experiences I've had in the last 4 years, and I wrote them down because I could clearly see a breadcrumb trail of events leading up to who I am today. These are things I prayed for, and only God could have realized them, especially considering the odds/circumstances were against me at the time. I barely made it over those initial hurdles, but I am showing improvement in many areas, and a greater awareness and experience in the things I've prayed for.

If God ever called you to do something, how did you know it was him and not your own desires?
Reluctancy, I think, is a major factor of knowing it wasn't your own desires. God's desires rarely line up with our own, but when we seem them it's as if we're God-smacked at how direct, efficient, and just how superb his plan is.

What can you point to in your life and say, "That's God" and not be able to rationalize it through a mechanism?
For me, it was God leading me into the unknown. I was getting involved in something I knew little about years ago, and it was out of my comfort zone. At the time, I thought this path would have hindered me or would have gotten me killed, and yet my prayers became answered and, I believe, ended up better because of God working in my life.

How do you support your story's origin (from God) when individuals from all religions claim to have had a divine experiences of their own?
This is a fantastic question. Honestly, I don't know. I do believe that God works in all religions, in all people, everywhere, so I can easily see why a Muslim, or I, or a Davidian would have "God experiences". But other than that, I just don't know.
 
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Sorry Tj for my brevity but I never would have been here or wrote a single word if it wasn't for my desire to find more about God and how to best serve him in a honorable fashion. Tribe of Judah caught my eye on a borrowed game and the hearts of others though them on a general discussion brought me to write! I never had a desire to begin what I swore off but I am here weaving in and out as his hand made basket to hold everything that your heart and his can blend within! He is the potter and I am mere clay and my heart will beat that way and I will continue to pray it is not to his dismay!
 
But the main problem is that MAN is the one trying to figure out what we're supposed to do, how we're supposed to act...

Matthew 5:17 Jesus was telling us that nothing has changed, and yet the world was so messed up that God needed to step in and correct us. The Jewish religious leaders of the day were completely backwards. Is it not likely that we're making some of the same mistakes?

Not God.

Us.

Christians.

Following the tenants of the Christian church.

I am not so egotistical to think that me or my church has it 100% correct. However, I think we're on the right path. I believe that God is pointing us in the right direction through Jesus' sacrifice and leaving us with the Spirit... it's just a matter of me making mistakes when I'm not listening completely upon God for direction.
It comes down to our definition of Christianity, I suppose. I define Christianity as the 100% correct way to do things. We as human "Christians" are attempting to follow Christianity but will not do so 100%. This is not a fault of Christianity, but a fault of the followers.
 
It comes down to our definition of Christianity, I suppose. I define Christianity as the 100% correct way to do things. We as human "Christians" are attempting to follow Christianity but will not do so 100%. This is not a fault of Christianity, but a fault of the followers.
Aye, I could have phrased my assertion that "Christianity is not 100% correct" more clearly.

What I meant is that no human (finite) estimation of the infinite, even when guided by God, is 100% correct in all parts. Even if we get to 99%, there are things that we may misunderstand or misread while we still struggle with the sin nature.

As usual, C.S. Lewis says it better than I could. I've found that that's a recurring trend.
 
Tek7 said:
As usual, C.S. Lewis says it better than I could. I've found that that's a recurring trend.

Scholars who have vast amounts of time, and many other scholars to use as sounding boards to refine their thoughts typically do.
 
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