The unforgivable sin?

[Neirai the Forgiven]

I should also mention: when having these threads, it's important to remember that we server a God of Mercy and Love, and not a clinical robot out in space, so do bear in mind that God is on the side of salvation and is not easily bound by arguments about where the line is.

 

[Abba San]

Very well put, Neirai.

 

[Preacher23]

i think the unforgivable sin is non repentance.

 

[silverleaf]

Thats interesting so I die with one unrepented sin and im off the list?
Maybe being a faggot but then again theres much much worse things you could do than be a faggot.

 

[Durruck]

There's a difference between struggling with a problem and not repenting of it. I can have an alcohol addiction and struggle with it, backslide, etc... while still being repentant of my sin.

 

[silverleaf]

There are some people I hate and can't forgive. I don't even try cos I hate them. That bastard who just ninja'd the item I've been grinding months for. That idiot who corp-robbed me in eve. Plenty. Do they deserve it? I doubt so.

Point is, I have trouble even trying, I don't even want to. So the point is

Is it one blemish you're out, or is it a balance?
PLUS
I still (of course) believe in Jesus and that he died on the cross for my sins and all that christian stuff and according to my pastor/sunday sch teacher (quite a while ago actually so my memory could have been slightly clouded) that alone is needed to get in.
Just as one escapes a fire.
Good enough for me. Though of course I don't deliberately add to the book of sins written against me.

Haven't been in this thread for a while.

Generally speaking, even if a people of a religion is totally off track, they worship their gods because they are trying to worship The God.

I'm speaking about people knowingly attributing things they know are the Holy Spirit's to the devil.


I would also like to point out that the main reason that Christians speculate about unforgivable sins is because they are afraid that they or someone they know has somehow committed them. To that end, I'd like to add this scripture as more grist for the mill:

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39 NIV

(I realize that the above quotation is contextless, but I think you can get the point.)

Well I don't know much about this but what if they were worshipping the same God, but with a different name and events? I'm not advocating tolerating worshipping of foreign gods in our midsts but say for example

There is life on some distant planet we shall just call X. Of the inhabitants of planet X probably some would still remember the true God, but no doubt there would be lots of other idols floating around there as well, much like we have.
Now, obviously they didn't have a cross system of execution, they didn't know a man called Jesus and obviously God would have a different timeline of events for them, totally different history and so on.

So, would they be guilty of idol worship?

Or for those of you who don't believe in extra terrestial life,
If in island zod in the middle of the bermuda triangle surrounded by a wall of impassable sea there are some tribe people. They worship some God who did a completely different set of things for them, and just don't know any of the events of the bible since they obviously don't know theres anything beyond the wall of skyscrapper tall waves surrounding them. Would they be saved then?

 

[Durruck]

you're overthinking it. The Bible tells us that we have innate notion of God. What we call Him isn't really that important - ever wonder why there are about 50 different names for God in the Bible?

Group 1 calls him Abba. Group2 calls him Yehweh. Group 3 calls him Protector. Group 4 calls him Creator. .... Alpha, Omega, I AM, Lord, and so forth.

There are a lot of names and qualities of God. Some of the names are just different languages' ways to express the same name. So the islanders in the middle of the ocean - what if they never heard of Jesus, but are still following the same God as you and I? I don't know, but I would assume that God knows their hearts, and knows how to judge them.

 

[RyanB]

Silverleaf,
First off, please watch the language a bit. Anyway, to clear things up, it's not "one blemish and you're out", it's "one blemish and you are guilty." Accepting Christ does not make us "not guilty". It makes us not guilty in His sight because the price (death) has been paid in our stead.

As for forgiveness, I would highly encourage you to read the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matt 18:21-35. In this parable, one man is shown mercy on a gigantic debt, then turns around and shows mercy on a small one. The man is then called wicked by the master, and thrown in jail. Your debt to God is enormous. So is mine. Think about how many times we sin against God over the course of our lifetimes. Someone grabbing loot doesn't even begin to compare. We are to forgive others of these small debts because God has forgiven us of everything; Jesus paid the price for it all.

Forgiveness is not a choice, but a commandment. Forgiveness is SO important that we are told that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven (Luke 6:37, Matt 6:14, Mark 11:25).

Jesus said that on the day of judgment, many will say they did things in His name, and He will simply reply that He never knew them. Following Christ means making Him Lord of your life. It means that God is the #1 thing you look to when making decisions, behaving, etc. When we follow Jesus, the fruits of the spirit naturally flow out, most of all love (Gal 5:22-23).

 

[Abba San]

Very well stated RyanB - thanks.

I'm reminded of the verse, If we claim to be in the light and hate someone, we are still in the dark. 1 John 2:9 (CEV). It goes hand-in-hand with the passage you recommended from Matthew 18 (with the one edit in your post "...then turns around and shows NO mercy on a small one.")

As you said, forgiveness really is a command - not an option - not if we are part of God's family. We will never experience the love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, goodness, or self control God intends if we do not learn to forgive.

 

[silverleaf]

But you must remember that in the parable the poor man begged for forgiveness, whereas these ninjas/corpthieves didn't.

If they had sent an apology mail and begged for forgiveness, even if they were unable to return the full amount or worth, I would still forgive them. Bind on pickup items... yeah just send some compensation gold will be fine.

So far, I haven't been hurt A LOT in life, so if whoever has hurt me comes and asks for forgiveness and tries his best to right the wrong sure I'll forgive him.
Point is these subhuman beasts are probably still laughing over their loot.

However how would you feel if you were some kind of holocaust survivor, grew up in an orphanage and your parents and siblings were tortured to death while you were forced to watch. Would anyone be able to forgive the torturers even if they knelt on sackcloth for a thousand years?

TLDR: I will forgive them if they ask for it and try to right the wrong.

And sorry for the language.

 

[Durruck]

But you must remember that in the parable the poor man begged for forgiveness, whereas these ninjas/corpthieves didn't.

Luke 23:34Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

Some of Jesus' last words include him begging for other people's forgiveness - even the unrepentant. Assuming that Jesus is our model, what are we to do?

 

[silverleaf]

Well I wonder if they were in fact forgiven in that case.
However in that case everyone should go to heaven because even though they worship foreign gods, they still receive their pardon.
Anyway I think its only reasonable to really forgive when someone trully repents, or at least tries to. And many times in the bible it is stated that 'that moment' <something about being saved>. For example that tax collector zzachsomething forgot the name the dude who climbed a sycamore, it is stated something like 'this moment life has come to this household'. Therefore he only received the forgiveness or life or whatever it is that moment he really repented of his past evils.
Ask and they shall receive.

Luke 23:34Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

It would be much MUCH easier to forgive someone who didn't know what they were doing (was it about stoning in this context? they thought they were stoning a blasphemer innit) than to someone who pre-meditated, calculated and then carried out something they already know is wrong.
For example accidentally breaking your mom's antique vase, you will prolly be sent to bed early endofstory.
However don't expect to be let off the hook so easily if you deliberately took a big bat and smashed it right in front of her right after she told you not to. Even if it was an ordinary vase, its still much worse a crime.

And yeah I have done way worse stuff to God in his eyes than ninjaing some boot/wand/wadever or bringing down some virtual bank (its this idiot im talking about http://www.news.com.au/eve-banker-that-stole-kredits-a-real-ricdic/story-0-1225745678039).
But honestly about that holocaust refrence, unless I've deliberately done something hideous, I doubt just offending God slightly or saying something unchristian or even being gay can compare to ending so many lives (which are created in the image of God anyway). Much worse a sin than me accidentally putting a small g instead of in CAPS in this post anyway.

Its almost impossible to forgive someone who doesn't even say sorry.
If he doesn't know he's done wrong and wasnt warned otherwise I'd have a much easier time.
If God the father expects genuine repentence from his own kids, then why should we expect less when others sin against us, especially if the sin was great like killing your parents? Maaybe the ninja looter a simple apology will do, or not real forgiveness but hes prolly just some basement dweller with no life (much like myself, gaming > any possible 'life') and no morals. Pity, but I won't hold a grudge. The corp thief is pushing it, but still forgivable even if he has indeed squandered all the money and can't repay. But as for the holocaust torturer, maybe its written we should forgive in all circumstances (Jesus forgiving those who killed him really shows us how its done) but I doubt more than one or two people in a million can do that. Don't forget, Jesus WASN'T human. If we could do all he did then there wouldn't need to be a God would there? Point is we should try to be perfect like him but its not possible to get a 100%, just my humble opinion. Heck I'd consider myself lucky if I even get 20%.

However commandments are like orders, don't expect to be thrown out of the army just because you failed to carry out a few orders do you? So I don't expect to be thrown into the pit either.

TLDR: Its almost impossible to forgive someone who doesn't even say sorry.

 

[Durruck]

Well I wonder if they were in fact forgiven in that case.

It would be much MUCH easier to forgive someone who didn't know what they were doing (was it about stoning in this context? they thought they were stoning a blasphemer innit) than to someone who pre-meditated, calculated and then carried out something they already know is wrong.

The point of reference here is that Jesus was asking God to forgive the people that were in the act of crucifying him. I'd say that since Jesus had just openly claimed to be one with the Father (ie, part of the Trinity - claiming he IS God), they should have known that they were doing wrong. You were thinking of Zacchaeus the Tax Collector, from Luke 19.

However in that case everyone should go to heaven because even though they worship foreign gods, they still receive their pardon.

No, there is a difference here. Jesus was asking forgiveness for the crucifixion - which was part of God's plan anyway. If we worship false idols, we're putting other things in front of God. Some of the Romans that participated (and Jews that condemned Jesus) could have thought they were doing right by God. Saul's testimony in Acts 26 is a perfect example of this:

9"I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. 11Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. In my obsession against them, I even went to foreign cities to persecute them.

However don't expect to be let off the hook so easily if you deliberately took a big bat and smashed it right in front of her right after she told you not to. Even if it was an ordinary vase, its still much worse a crime.

I couldn't agree more. And that's why the verses that RyanB quoted are important:

Forgiveness is not a choice, but a commandment. Forgiveness is SO important that we are told that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven (Luke 6:37, Matt 6:14, Mark 11:25).

If you read those three verses (and surrounding verses for point of reference, there is nothing that says that the person that wronged us needs to seek our forgiveness; we are to give it without their request. Think on it like this: What if the ninja-looter seriously felt bad about what he did, but didn't remember who you were.... prayed to God for forgiveness? He's now forgiven, and you're the one left holding the grudge, harboring hatred. Who then is left that will be judged by God? That's right, it's you.

I doubt just offending God slightly

To one that is 100% pure, there is no "slight" offense. All sins are sins, and all sins offend God. The Bible tells us that holding a grudge is the same as committing murder in your heart. Lusting is just as bad as having an affair. To God, you've as much as murdered someone when you don't forgive them. (see Matthew 5:21-30)

Much worse a sin than me accidentally putting a small g instead of in CAPS in this post anyway.

I can't swear to it, but I doubt an accidental typographical error of using "god" instead of "God" will merit judgment. The capitalization is a matter of respect and reverence; in our language it also shows the difference between an object and a name. It seems to me that you're focusing on completely the wrong things in life.

Its almost impossible to forgive someone who doesn't even say sorry.

No, it isn't. It's a matter of convincing yourself that your job is not to judge, try, and convict people. Some guy cut me off in traffic yesterday. Should I hate him for the rest of my existence? No! My job is to look at the big picture and realize that it's not my job to figure out if he was sorry. I am called to forgive him. If I see him again today on the road, I'm not going to cut him off or road-rage on him.

Jesus WASN'T human

Wrong. Wrong, wrong. wrong.

6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

God took form as a man and came to live the example for us. Jesus was God, but he also possessed a fleshy duality. The scale is obviously different, but it's the same concept as me saying that I'm both a Firefighter and a Husband. I can be both things at the same time. Jesus was both God and Son of Man at the same time.

If we could do all he did then there wouldn't need to be a God would there?

It isn't that there needs to be a God, but that He is.

Point is we should try to be perfect like him but its not possible to get a 100%, just my humble opinion. Heck I'd consider myself lucky if I even get 20%.

I'd be surprised if I honestly earned a 2%. But that's not really the point. We are called to be more like Jesus. I will never get to 100%, I know... however, The Bible and our study with other Christians, coupled with the convictions of the Spirit should be pushing us forward.

If you know that you have a problem with anger and forgiveness because of ninja-looters in video games, then you've got some things to work out. I won't say that my list of ideas is definitive or complete, but you need to figure out how to get past those roadblocks if you want to make sure that you're in the right place. So I'd suggest one of two things:

1) Learn how to forgive people, even if they haven't repented their sins to you. You are not the judge, you are not the one that has the power to determine their hearts. You need to learn to let stuff go.

2) Stop playing games. If the pixels have become so powerful to you that you can't learn to forgive someone for ninja-looting, corp-robbing, kill-stealing, corpse-camping, speed hacking, or whatever... remove yourself from the environment. When it comes down to it, the pixels are not worth jeopardizing your eternity.

I said before that it seemed to me that you were focusing on the wrong things in life. I would guess that I'm not alone. But at this point, I'm not asking for back-up. But I do want you to see why I respond so thoroughly to you.

Matthew 18:15"If your brother sins*, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.

*Some manuscripts: "sins against you,"

I considered PMing this message, but since it is in the context of a study, I decided to keep it public. This is a call-out. You've got some stuff to deal with. At the least, spend some time with the computer turned off, and the Bible opened. Spend some time on your knees. I'm not trying to judge you, but I am trying to confront your rebellious attitude towards God's commands. Making mistakes along the way isn't what matters. It's your response and your heart that makes the difference. Matthew 5:20 "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

The Pharisees thought they were above rebuking and did whatever they pleased. Don't fall into the same trap.

 

[silverleaf]

To one that is 100% pure, there is no "slight" offense. All sins are sins, and all sins offend God. The Bible tells us that holding a grudge is the same as committing murder in your heart. Lusting is just as bad as having an affair. To God, you've as much as murdered someone when you don't forgive them. (see Matthew 5:21-30)

That isn't my point here, my point is not to be 100% pure or any better than the average christian. Point is if this is enough to throw me out of the book of life. Goal is to get into heaven and enjoy an eternity of hardcore gaming (nothing is better than that except God ie ticket out of hell). Is there any nomal person (IE everyone except Jesus) who hasn't died and broken without repentance any of the big commandments?

 

[Durruck]

I'll have to find the thread, but there's a discussion about the "unforgivable sin" - that is, blasphemy against the Spirit. It's about our hearts. If we choose to constantly ignore the Spirit and rebuke from fellow Christians, we may be guilty. It's not the point that you sin.. it's the point that you say "yeh, so what. I'm gonna do what I want and not try to get better."

 

[silverleaf]

Makes sense.
However, the question still remains unanswered, is it enough to get me to hell?
We all know its nearly impossible to even fulfull even 20% of God's expectations.

The ninja and corpthief are hypothetical scenarios, just a reminder. These events didn't really happen. Just thought I'd pick a sin gaming related since we can all relate here.

For such minor things I prolly won't care that much, maybe not forgive them but its out of my mind soon enough. Sure I'd put them on the guild KOS list but thats it. No need to get too hard up, next time I see him just send a few strongly worded insults and
But then I'd have too many names to remember so probably after a few weeks I'll forget it. I won't deliberately go out of my way to hold a grudge.
However you notice society, even christian and catholic societies now and in the past are strongly revenge orientated. We all know that it is really unrealistic that if someone barges in and kills my parents I'm just gona say I forgive them and go on as if nothing happened.

The 'everyone is doing it' debate is very flawed, I know. However in this case, who then is not guilty of this unforgiveness? I forgive lots of people who do crap against me. However I'm sure everyone will have that someone they can't forgive by the time they die, if they are fortunate enough to live to a ripe old age (something I personally don't really want, just short but sweet is good).

It's not the point that you sin.. it's the point that you say "yeh, so what. I'm gonna do what I want and not try to get better."

Rather, I'm saying this guy has harmed me so much I can't ever forgive him in a thousand years even if I tried, which I am too badly clouded by hate to do so.

And this forgiveness thing is just one of the many commandments, look back any person's life, I'm pretty sure almost everyone (everyone except Jesus and maybe the holiest of holies like the 12) would have died guilty of breaking one of the commandments and willingly doing it unrepentently. Does that gurantee them a spot in hell? Does it undo all the other times they have done good?

 

[Durruck]

Rather, I'm saying this guy has harmed me so much I can't ever forgive him in a thousand years even if I tried, which I am too badly clouded by hate to do so.

Actually, I think that I can identify with this. My boss put me into a situation that put my health at risk unnecessarily, all to cover up the fact that he did something he shouldn't have done. He didn't even tell me about the known risks to something he ordered me to do, so I couldn't even take basic safety precautions because I wasn't aware of the danger. Then he lied about it. Then he made excuses. So now I have to go for testing every few years to make sure that I'm not going develop cancer from it.

I struggled with anger, hatred, and a "inability" to forgive him for a long, long time. I didn't want to forgive him because I thought it would somehow absolve him of his responsibility to be a good leader. I wanted to be able to blame him if I got sick, and I didn't want to give up my anger. But it was a choice. Here was the interesting twist: he came back to work and carried on his life. He didn't worry about what had happened. He didn't lose sleep over it. He didn't have an obsessive hatred making him hate his job. And I'll be completely honest, that was probably the lowest point of my career, my marriage, and my life.

But one day I woke up and realized that when I hated him, the only person that was actually hurt by that was me. He moved on and went on with his life. I was stuck in the past, seething anger, destroying everything I worked so hard to get. And then I read the Bible and saw that I was damaging my soul; I was ignoring Jesus willfully and intentionally. I was placing myself in the hot seat of judgment because I wanted to hold something over someone else. Are we not called to forgive? Are we not called to serve others, even those that we feel don't deserve it? Are we not called to focus on serving God and ignore what the world does to us?

I saw a great video that touched on this very topic a while back. The basics is that there is an employee that is stealing from the boss. Boss catches him, then forgives him and even lets him stay employed. However, the boss removes the guy from a position that would allow him to steal again. The thief protests and says, "but I thought you forgave me? Why am I being given the janitor's job?" The boss responds that he has forgiven the thief, but he doesn't have to keep putting him in a position to repeat his sins against the boss. There's a big difference between forgiveness and making it easy for a repeat sin (altho by keeping the thief under his authority, he has "turned the other cheek" - the thief *could* find a way to steal again.)

would have died guilty of breaking one of the commandments and willingly doing it unrepentently.

You're partially right. They broke a lot of rules, sinned a whole bunch. There's a reason that Paul called himself the chief of sinners. Peter knew that he would deny Jesus, yet did it anyway. Judas knew that he would betray Jesus, yet did it anyway. We know that Paul and Peter both repented, and Judas' guilt drove him to suicide (we're not told Judas' eternal destination). But what we can see is even though they continued to sin, they were attempting to live by Jesus' commands.

And that's what I pointed to in my last post. Are you trying to do better (even if 20% is the best you'll ever do), or are you thumbing your nose at God and telling Him that you just don't even want to try?

Does it undo all the other times they have done good?

It could. Moses was denied entry into the Promised Land because he didn't follow God's commands.... one single time. There are punishments here and now for our deeds, even if Jesus takes our sins upon himself at our judgment.

 

[silverleaf]

And that's what I pointed to in my last post. Are you trying to do better (even if 20% is the best you'll ever do), or are you thumbing your nose at God and telling Him that you just don't even want to try?

The point is we are all trying to get better, however I find it impossible in this area to do so. Also, just to clarify I'm not asking if its OK. It is not. It is not ok, it is not acceptable. However it is (according to most) not enough to throw
That is a step I drew myself, derived from
All you have to do is believe in Jesus to be saved.
They drummed that into us countless times in sunday school, evengalism sessions, community stakeouts etc etc.
Apparently that is not all one should do, but it should be 'enough' to not end up in the pit. However, ask around. We all have someone we hate. If not, probably did something else wrong. I doubt many can live up to your standard. And absolutely no one we know in the past or present can live up to God's except Jesus (since he is God).

Moses was denied entry into the Promised Land because he didn't follow God's commands.... one single time. There are punishments here and now for our deeds, even if Jesus takes our sins upon himself at our judgment.

I still haven't really wrapped myself around that one, because those that did enter would probably have done way more bad things than Moses did. Maybe because of his position or something more is expected of him, I will never know the reason why. Just something I can't wrap my mind around.

And by your forgiveness analogy (the cleaner one) in that case I'll still give this guy who stole my money a punch when I see him even though I forgave him but just cos he deserved it (yet another hypo scenario). Punishment does not mean non forgiveness. And yeah after I beat him senseless I will forgive him... I know, we're supposed to do it unconditionally but its still better than nothing.

 

[Phrankdatank]

We know that Paul and Peter both repented, and Judas' guilt drove him to suicide (we're not told Judas' eternal destination).

Matthew 26:24 "The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born."

Jesus probably wouldn't be saying such things about someone who was going to Heaven.

Does that gurantee them a spot in hell? Does it undo all the other times they have done good?

Presumptuous sin(when you know you're doing wrong and do it anyway) is never a good idea.

The Bible says in Ezekiel 33:13 "13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it."

It also says that unforgiveness will cause you to not be forgiven by God. It doesn't matter what they did, God requires you to forgive them if you want to receive His forgiveness. In fact, given the parable of the unmerciful servant, if you don't forgive others, God will actually reinstate your sin debt if you refuse to forgive! In addition, harboring hatred towards someone in your heart is actually the moral equivalent of murder in the sight of God(1 John 3:15)! The only difference between the person who commits actual murder and the person who harbors hatred is that the person with hatred WOULD commit murder but doesn't since they fear the consequences. If the consequences were gone, so would any reservations against murder.

A good way to deal with your angry feelings towards whoever you're so angry at is to pray to God, honestly tell Him your feelings(He knows anyway), tell Him exactly how you feel about the other person and the things you'd probably like to do in revenge, and then turn around and ask Him for the strength to forgive that person, and then forgive them.

However, forgiveness doesn't mean that you stay around and let them use you as a "punching bag", so to speak. If possible, avoid that person physically or if they wronged you in-game(such as on WoW), put them on your ignore list and don't run instances with them anymore. If you can't avoid them(IRL), such as having a class or job with them, then pray God for the strength to not grow hateful towards them and to show them the love of Christ.

Concerning games like World of Warcraft, I can sympathize with your feelings, since I played that game before. I know how it feels to lose a roll on an item you've been grinding an instance over and over to get, I know how it feels when you see that nice titanium node only to have it ninja'd or to be beaten to it, I know how cut-throat and dog-eat-dog the game can get. As for being wronged in WoW, I would say that if that game causes you to get all bent out of shape, then delete your characters and then change the password and email to gibberish in order to render your account unusable(just in case you're then tempted to create a level 55 Death Knight).

The Bible says that Hell is so bad that if your right hand, right foot, or right eye causes you to sin that you're better to sever them and enter Heaven maimed than it is to go to Hell with a whole, full body(Matthew 5:29-30). Now, Jesus isn't promoting self mutilation, but the principle is still there. If WoW causes you to be angry, cut it off. If playing video games causes you to rage in frustration, stop playing them. A video game is not worth losing your eternal soul over.

Jesus Christ was fully man and fully God, and He understands the afflictions men go through. Jesus was in all points tempted but didn't sin(Hebrews 4:15). Jesus Christ probably got cheated at times during His life. During His time as a carpenter, He probably might not have gotten promotions or other things that He probably deserved.

In fact, in spite of all the good Jesus Christ did to the people of Israel, instead of giving Him the adoration He deserved, they yelled "CRUCIFY HIM!" When He was standing trial, no one He healed or delivered from demons or any other recipients of His miracles stood with Him. Peter denied Him 3 times, Judas betrayed Him, and the other 10 apostles scattered. If anyone had a reason to be bitter and vengeful, it was Jesus Christ. What was His response? "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

If He can forgive that, then He expects you to be willing to forgive people their small offenses towards you. Our sins against God are like the 10,000 talents. Others' offenses against us are like the 100 pence(KJV).

TLDR: God expects you to forgive if you want His forgiveness. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy(Matthew 5:7). If WoW causes you to sin, quit playing it.

 

[silverleaf]

Matthew 26:24 "The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born."

Jesus probably wouldn't be saying such things about someone who was going to Heaven.

Not according to the gospel of Judas (google it)
This is really confusing now I don't know what to believe anymore.

Also, if what you say is the case then why were there cities of refuge? Because someone is going to come weapons hot after you to avenge their relatives.
Say someone has hurt me in the past.
I won't bear a grudge and dwell in it day and night, just that the next time I see him and the opportunity presents itself I'll get revenge.
Don't get mad, get even.

Plus, in those days justice was kinda literally an eye for an eye.
I know, an eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind, but the rules given to them in the desert didn't exactly say just forgive them and let them go. Maybe beat them up and then forgive them. Hey I could live with that.

I'll forgive, but I will deliver justice.

Oh and what about when my pastor prayed on behalf of the church last time 'forgive us when we have not forgiven our neighbor'
Implying that it is indeed a sin, but its almost impossible not to.

Because ideally, what you say should happen. However what I'm saying is that by your standard of total forgiveness 100% of the time, no one would be that good enough.
Plus isn't it kinda blaming the victim? Do you really expect the holocaust survivors to just forgive the nazis?

It is very easy for my game analogy, or even in RL when someone cuts you to get that promotion. However when it concerns something more important than yourself, than your soul even, then it gets tricky.
Even though they are crap, I'd say I love my parents more than myself. Would I risk eternal damnnation to avenge them? Sure. Do I expect to receive ill judgement for being the avenger of blood? Definately not.

In fact, in spite of all the good Jesus Christ did to the people of Israel, instead of giving Him the adoration He deserved, they yelled "CRUCIFY HIM!"

They thought he was a blasphemer, if someone blasphemes in church you'd kick him in his pants and throw him out too. If it was a Jewish synagogue don't expect to be let out whole. Lucky if you even survive.
Thing is he did say some pretty controversial stuff for that time and they didn't INTENTIONALLY sin against God since they were not aware of the truth. Refer to my breaking glasses analogy above.

When He was standing trial, no one He healed or delivered from demons or any other recipients of His miracles stood with Him.

Big. Angry. Mob. Do you want to be pwnt together? Plus its already pre determined in the prophesy this will happen so they couldn't deviate from a linear script. Refer to my long and inconclusive discussion about free will. Up to today I still don't know if we're in a linear world or do we really have the power to change the course of fate.

Peter denied Him 3 times, Judas betrayed Him, and the other 10 apostles scattered.

Run for your lives.

If anyone had a reason to be bitter and vengeful, it was Jesus Christ. What was His response? "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

We don't know if they were in fact forgiven though.