The U.S. WAS Founded as Christian

Mr.Bill said:
No worries Bowser; I think we've adequately kissed and made up. You should work on the kissing though. ; )
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I don't swing that way pal, but I understand the embarassment. Payback, right? lol

I would like to apologize to everyone though; something's been bothering me lately and I brought it here to the forums, and I shouldn't have. I'm very sorry for that, to everyone.
 
To get on topic I'll say that I believe the United States was founded on Biblical morals and by mostly Christian men, but I wouldn't believe that any of the founders would declare that America was founded by, for, or on any religion...
 
Dark Virtue said:
That has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with what I said. This topic is about America being founded as a Christian Nation, not whether or not the majority of Americans are Christian.
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Actually it has everything to do with what you are talking about. You are having trouble following my analogies. I was giving an example on a personal level but relating it to a national level.



Dark Virtue said:
No matter, it can still be viewed objectively, can it not?
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Of course, but you missed the point again. I was not saying you are not objective (but you obviously are saying that I am not). We both believe that we are being objective, but we are looking at the problem from completely different sides. Nothing I say will convince you that I am objective unless I agree with you apparently :(




Dark Virtue said:
What the heck does that have to do with the Age of Enlightenment?
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lol...absolutely nothing :) But again you completely missed the point. The point I was trying to make is...just because they lived during the 'Age of Enlightenment' does not mean that they completely ascribed to the beliefs of the movement (just like I did not ascribe to the beliefs of the hippie movement).

Dark Virtue said:
I'd really, REALLY love to see you prove that. Or is evidence too much to ask for?
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lol...you haven't proven anything to me either. You've tried and I appreciate that :) Obviously we are not going to agree no matter how long we discuss this. Have you read the letter from the Danbury Baptist Association to Thomas Jefferson? The one he was responding to in his 1802 letter? Without reading their letter to him you cannot gain an objective understanding of his return letter.


Dark Virtue said:
I would suggest a little bit of research done with an objective viewpoint.
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sigh...our ideas of objectivity obviously differ.

I will end my discussion in this thread here. It has become too personal and we are arguing in circles. If I have offended anyone by some of my comments such as:

Didasko said:
Only a very ignorant person (or someone in the habit of ignoring the facts to further their point of view) would believe otherwise after viewing the evidence.
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Then I apologize. I should not have made a belittling comment like that :eek:

I look forward to future discussions with you DV...but on this one I have to respectfully disagree and move on.
 
Isn't David Barton and his organization, Wallbuilders, guilty of doing that very same thing?
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Simply using him as an example, maybe not the best example, but I certainly didn't pertain to include him exclusively. Some people simply like to argue any point into submission, wouldn't you agree?
 
Didasko said:
It has become too personal and we are arguing in circles.
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That's not the first time someone's said that DV's arguments go in circles, lol. Heh, you really gotta find a way out of the circle, DV :)
 
Bowser, do you think you could make a single, solitary reply that doesn't contain a personal attack or insult?

To get on topic I'll say that I believe the United States was founded on Biblical morals and by mostly Christian men, but I wouldn't believe that any of the founders would declare that America was founded by, for, or on any religion...
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Would you mind explaining what evidence led you to your belief?
 
Bowser said:
That's not the first time someone's said that DV's arguments go in circles, lol. Heh, you really gotta find a way out of the circle, DV :)
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Off Topic, I don't think I've ever seen any DV's posts go in circle, actually I usually find him to be the one to always pull pull people back on topic when we stray off cource. Just my 2 cents, for what ever its worth.
 
Dark Virtue said:
Bowser, do you think you could make a single, solitary reply that doesn't contain a personal attack or insult?
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I already told you something was bothering me, DV; stop being so sensitive.

Would you mind explaining what evidence led you to your belief?
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I can't give any evidence, but I think it's obvious that most of the framers of the constitution, and of course many other important figures in the forming of the United States, were all Christians and were active in their church and exercised their beliefs. I guess though, since I can't give any facts, I'm wrong, right?
 
Most of the framers of the constitution were Christian, and most of the country's population was, and still is, mostly Christian, but that does not mean that this is a Christian country. If it were intended to be, some note would have been made in the founding document of the nation, the Constitution.
 
I can't give any evidence, but I think it's obvious that most of the framers of the constitution, and of course many other important figures in the forming of the United States, were all Christians and were active in their church and exercised their beliefs. I guess though, since I can't give any facts, I'm wrong, right?
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How can you believe in something when you can't base it on evidence and proof?

Many of the framers of the constitution, especially the more notable ones were NOT ALL CHRISTIANS. What you just stated was erroneous and uneducated. There is a HUGE difference between a Christian and a Deist, and several of the founding fathers were Deists.

Let me rephrase what Mr. Bill just said...

Many of the founding fathers were Christian...but not ALL of them.

The majority of Americans today are Christian... but not all of us.

This nation was founded on the notion of freedom of religion.

You can't found a nation on the basis of freedom of religion while proclaiming one relgion as the religion of the land. The founding fathers DID NOT DO THIS.

No one has yet demonstrated any evidence to show that the United States of America was founded AS a Christian Nation. Founded BY Christians, yes. Founded AS a Christian Nation, NO.

Please tell me how America was supposed to be founded AS a Christian nation, yet subscribed to the notion of the freedom of ANY religion? Isn't that counter to the very first Commandment? If America was founded AS a Christian nation, then where are the rules to Remember the Sabbath Day and Keep it Holy? Or Not to Take the Name of God in Vain?

If America was founded AS a Christian nation, then on what specific Christian principles was it founded on?
 
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I had this really nice and long in-your-face response to DV's last post...but Mr. Bill's convinced me to delete it, and so I have. It wasn't anything untruthful, but because of that, coming from me, it certainly wasn't pretty.

Anyway, DV, I think you've misread one of my previous posts, and I would encourage you to go back and reread it. Specificaly, I'm talking about where I actually disagreed to believe that the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation. I encourage you to reread it, because you seem to have misunderstood it. It seems like you thought I was saying something different.

DV, please understand that just because I don't present facts to you right away, or even if I don't give them, doesn't make my beliefs "erroneous", as you say. I don't save every single piece of information I come across. And, when I do save information, it's not always easily and readily available for me - usually it's stashed away in a drawer or book somewhere.

Hopefully we can talk on a personal and friendly basis after this. That's, ultimately, why I've PMed you in the past (not recently! lol), and have tried to add you to my messenger. You can just be so hard to talk to sometimes, which is partly why I was so upset on the forums.
 
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DV, please understand that just because I don't present facts to you right away, or even if I don't give them, doesn't make my beliefs "erroneous", as you say. I don't save every single piece of information I come across. And, when I do save information, it's not always easily and readily available for me - usually it's stashed away in a drawer or book somewhere.
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I can only comment on what you actually post, so let's look at PRECISELY what you said:

I can't give any evidence, but I think it's obvious that most of the framers of the constitution, and of course many other important figures in the forming of the United States, were all Christians and were active in their church and exercised their beliefs. I guess though, since I can't give any facts, I'm wrong, right?
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You didnt' say that you had evidence that you'd show me later, you said you CAN'T show me any evidence. From that, I inferred that you had no evidence to offer, whatsoever. That's why I took the position that I did.

I've posted quite a bit about why I believe that this country was NOT founded AS a Christian nation. Let's start with a blank slate and avoid any confusion. Do you believe that the United States was founded as a Christian nation? Please give some reasons why you believe what you do.

BTW, I don't think I'm THAT difficult to talk to :)
 
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