The Natural World

[Dark Virtue]

SA, if you're going to try and make logical arguments, then at least make then SOUND. The dog analogy doesn't work either, because you aren't damning your dog to an eternity of torment in #### if he fails to understand you and makes the wrong choices.

Now PLEASE, stop dragging this discussion off course. Instead, why don't you actually answer the question I've posed time and again in this thread?

 

[Xel]

As far as I see it, natural disasters are there to inspire fear in man. "Oh jeez, God owned us with a tsunami! Surely He is insanely powerful!" As I've said a few times, God does everything for nothing more then His own glory. God wanted to flex his muscles at the expense of thousands of souls who now are roasting in ####, yay..

 

[Thaddius]

Dunno how relevent this is to the discussion thus far, but I found it interesting. (please feel free to delete if it is not warrented here)

Quote[/b] ]Earthquake and tsunamis: Is your faith shaken? - Joseph Farah

Dr. Rowan Williams, the archbishop of Canterbury, says the earthquake and tsunamis in South Asia should and will shake the faith of all Christians.

"'The question 'How can you believe in a God who permits suffering on this scale?' is therefore very much around at the moment, and it would be surprising if it weren't – indeed it would be wrong if it weren't,'" he says.


I don't know why Williams feels qualified to speak for all Christians. But clearly he doesn't speak for me. My faith is not shaken. Is yours?

While I am stunned by the magnitude of the devastation and suffering wrought by the natural disasters, they haven't shaken my faith but strengthened it.

Do people like Williams actually read the Bible? Do they believe any of it?

The Bible is filled with stories of disasters that dwarf what we witnessed last week. The Bible tells us of a worldwide flood that destroyed all mankind and all land animals – save for one man's extended family and the animals he took on his ship.

My guess is that people like Williams allegorize stories like that one. In fact, they must allegorize most of the Bible, thus leaving them with not a very strong foundation of faith to begin with.

I personally believe the Bible – which is why I can look at the events of last week and place them in context.

Yes, it is horrible that more than 100,000 people lost their lives. Yes, it is horrible and almost beyond comprehension how more are going to die as a result of diseases. Yes, it is horrible that perhaps a million or more are homeless as a result of the tragic events.

But what Williams and other Christians like him need to understand is that we live on God's planet at His mercy and by His rules. He decides what's right and wrong in this world – not us. This planet is His creation.

The events of last week show just how tenuous our stake on this planet is. It can all be blown away in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. It can all be washed away – all of our worldly possessions, even our lives. It can happen without warning. Insurance won't protect you. The government won't protect you.

If you can't believe in God at a time like this, what can you believe in?

Man has placed himself at the center of the universe for so long, some of us can't comprehend what a thin vapor life really is. That's what we were reminded of last week.

My faith is strengthened at times like this – particularly because God's word talks about times that sound amazingly like these in which we live.

Listen to Jesus as recorded in Luke 21:11: "There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven."

Later in verse 25-26: "On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken."

Scientists say the earth itself was shaken by the great quake in South Asia last week – even altering the planet's rotation slightly. I suspect there's much worse to come, according to God's word.

But right after this passage, comes the good news.

Luke 21:27-28 reads: "At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

At times like this, it ought to be clergymen like Williams comforting believers and non-believers alike with the good news. Unfortunately, some apostates in clerical garb really worship at the altar of humanism.

Cory

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ([toj.cc]hescominsoon @ Jan. 21 2005,3:59)]We are created to praise Him..unfortunatly for us and God so many of us cannot stand the thought of that. We want to be left alone in our own little world and keep God int he box. it doesn't work that way. The bible makes it clear.

If that is TRULY what God wants, then why doesn't God clearly state who He is and what He wants? As it is now, we haven't seen hide nor hair of Him and have very little to go on.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Thanks for the read Thaddius.

Here is the crux of the article, as well as this thread:

Quote[/b] ]
If you can't believe in God at a time like this, what can you believe in?

Unfortunately, the author doesn't go about explaining WHY we should believe in a supposedly omnibenevolent God in the face of natural disasters.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

He has shown a 'hair' of himself. You just don't think he has.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Let's assume that you're correct (which I don't believe that you are).

Why only show the briefest bit of Himself. If our ultimate purpose is to serve Him, why go through all of this crap? And please, think of a better answer than "Free Will", that's a completely illogical argument.

 

[Marcylene]

Knowing that in the midst of all the enemies miseries, He is here with us, Emmanual, is cause for praise!

I would like to comment too, on it being said that all victims of the tsunami in ####. I do not believe that to be true. There are those in His presence at this very moment!

 

[SLNT_FIR]

Cause we screwed up big time. And this 'crap' is not boring as YOU might think... DV is like

It's actually fun serving the Lord. It's fun in itself.

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ] And please, think of a better answer than "Free Will", that's a completely illogical argument.

Your trying to put God in your little box of human logic. Man tries to find ways to explain things so that they no longer need God. Nature, science, aliens, everyone looks for and finds answers because they don't want to see God. Maybe they are afraid, I don't know I don't suffer from that disease.

I believe in God. I believe in free will. I believe that God does as He chooses in His rightiousness.

Romans 9:14-18

Quote[/b] ]14. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Your playing chicken with God. I hope your as sure in your disbelief as I am in my belief.

Cory

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Marcylene @ Jan. 21 2005,10:05)]

Quote[/b] ]Knowing that in the midst of all the enemies miseries, He is here with us, Emmanual, is cause for praise!

1. How do you KNOW?

2. How many of those miseries are due to God's own creating and devising?

Quote[/b] ]I would like to comment too, on it being said that all victims of the tsunami in ####. I do not believe that to be true. There are those in His presence at this very moment!

I don't think anyone suggested that they were ALL in hell. However, those that aren't with God are where?

Also, what is your Biblical proof that says those who believed and were followers of Christ are with God? Where does the Bible say believers go when they die? I'd love to see some verses that explain why you believe they are with God NOW and where they are. Thanks.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]Your trying to put God in your little box of human logic.

Hmm...the last time I checked, I was human, so what other logic should I be using? As a human, I have to rely on human logic to understand the world around me. Pray tell, what logic did you use to determine your belief in God?

Quote[/b] ]Man tries to find ways to explain things so that they no longer need God. Nature, science, aliens, everyone looks for and finds answers because they don't want to see God. Maybe they are afraid, I don't know I don't suffer from that disease.

"It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."--Sherlock Holmes

It's nice to know you believe that those of us that don't believe in your God are suffering from some mental illness. Nice!

Let me clarify and correct. Man has not tried to find ways to explain things so we don't need God. Man, in his search for knowledge, has sought to explain things that we didn't understand. In so doing, we have found absolutely no evidence of God. Refer back to the quote above. No proof or evidence of God, no matter how much you want to believe in Him will ultimately point you to the truth: that He does not exist.

Quote[/b] ]I believe in God. I believe in free will. I believe that God does as He chooses in His rightiousness.

Another topic for another day, I'd appreciate your input in a discussion on Free Will.

Quote[/b] ]Your playing chicken with God. I hope your as sure in your disbelief as I am in my belief.

Explain how I am playing chicken with God. I have not spit in His face and denied him.

Disbelief is defined as the, "mental rejection of something as untrue". I have offered up no rejection or denial. It's a fine line that theists wish to blur, but the point is quite clear. I cannot, in good conscience offer up a belief in something that I have no proof for. That's like me adamantly stating that YES, an Invisible Pink Unicorn exists. Sure I have no proof, but I BELIEVE and have FAITH that it does. Does my belief and faith in it's existence prompt you to believe the same? Or would you prefer to have some proof that such a being exists?

 

[Marcylene]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Jan. 22 2005,7:56)]1.  How do you KNOW?

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. II Corinthians 5:8
*sigh* Oh, that you could grasp it!  Faith.  The more it grows, the more it is considered in the heart of those believe, 100% solid, factual evidence!  The Bible calls it the evidence of things not seen.

Quote[/b] ]2.  How many of those miseries are due to God's own creating and devising?

I am uncertain.  I know that God, in His wrath could cause such destruction.  However, He is a God of Love, and I know that the area has many missionaries.  I feel this was the enemies hand.  He does not want anyone to come to know the LORD.

Quote[/b] ]I don't think anyone suggested that they were ALL in hell.  However, those that aren't with God are where?

I don't even like to say it.  The very thought breaks my heart.  However, if they are there, it was their choice.  This fact makes it no less utterly sickening. Nevertheless, if I can type this through tears, I assure you, our Heavenly Father that left His throne to pay for the sins of the world to avoid this, is no less shaken by it.
The lesson here, for me, is, "What can I do to obey and spread the Word?"  I am a hopeless romantic, for I pray, (and I know that miracles are abundant), that all are with Jesus now.

Quote[/b] ]Also, what is your Biblical proof that says those who believed and were followers of Christ are with God?  Where does the Bible say believers go when they die?  I'd love to see some verses that explain why you believe they are with God NOW and (omitted by Marcylene to follow) Thanks.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.  John 5:24

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.  I John 5:13

Quote[/b] ]where they are.

Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King. Psalm 48:2

The sides of the North!  Fascinating!  I cannot fathom!  If you accept Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, you will get to see the exact location!

And all this because the Bible says so, silly!!  
The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler's map, the pilgrim's staff, the pilot's compass, the soldier's sword, and the Christian's charter. Here Paradise is restored, Heaven opened, and the gates of hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good the design, and the glory of God its end.

It should fill the memory, rule the heart, and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently, and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure. It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, will reward the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.
_The Gideons

A good preaching on Heaven.
Heaven Our Home

You mention the invisible pink unicorn. If you say he is there, DV, I will believe.  I don't think you would have any reason to lead me astray! You ask Him to reveal Himself, He has, in His Book, the Bible!

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. I Timothy 1:17

 

[SLNT_FIR]

Whoever said GOD created these "MISERIES"? Satan's plan for attacking YOU DV! (his plan is generally actually the same for attacking all of us)

1. Tempt you to sin.
2. Whisper it into your pink brain until you do what he wants.
3. Say 'YOU ARE BAD, YOU DID THE WRONG THING!

' even though he's the one who told you to do it.

THAT IS FUNNY! I heard that from JM. He tells you to do something, then he bashes you for doing that. LOL!

I don't think this answers most of your question. Or even a bit. But whatever. But we do NOT BELIEVE IN AN INVISIBLE WHITE GOD. *now realizes :OOOOOO* lol. that probably didn't happen just now. If it did, i'm ognna eat my mouse. Now that i see it, you're just saying the same argumetn oer and over and over and over. We ARE giving you the answers, but you're just using the same argument to defeat our answers, then poking us through our computer monitors, saying we haven't answered your quesiton. LOL

No offense, but I think that's kind of cute. I don't mean it in a bad way, but I just think it is when I think about a finger poking us... lol. oh and btw, Sherlock Holmes was an opium addict. So I wouldn't choose him for a quote. <--- Personally. And again,

Quote[/b] ]You are trying to put God in your little box of human logic.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Marcylene @ Jan. 22 2005,8:18)]

Quote[/b] ]We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. II Corinthians 5:8
*sigh* Oh, that you could grasp it! Faith. The more it grows, the more it is considered in the heart of those believe, 100% solid, factual evidence! The Bible calls it the evidence of things not seen.

Ah, but I DO grasp it. The truth is you do not KNOW, instead you HOPE and WISH. Huge difference, but you have blurred the definitions. You can not KNOW God exists by any amount of Faith, that is the simple, plain answer.

Quote[/b] ]I am uncertain. I know that God, in His wrath could cause such destruction. However, He is a God of Love, and I know that the area has many missionaries. I feel this was the enemies hand. He does not want anyone to come to know the LORD.

Your arguments are like a serpent that bends back to feed upon itself. You say God is LOVE, but that He causes these things to happen. Then you blame it on the "enemy". All things are due to God, no? The "enemy" owes his existence and power to God, no? Sorry, put the blame where it belongs, square at the feet of your loving God.

Quote[/b] ]I don't even like to say it. The very thought breaks my heart. However, if they are there, it was their choice. This fact makes it no less utterly sickening. Nevertheless, if I can type this through tears, I assure you, our Heavenly Father that left His throne to pay for the sins of the world to avoid this, is no less shaken by it.
The lesson here, for me, is, "What can I do to obey and spread the Word?" I am a hopeless romantic, for I pray, (and I know that miracles are abundant), that all are with Jesus now.

Once again you contradict yourself. Earlier you said it wasn't their fault, but now you're blaming them for being in everlasting torment, put their by YOUR God. So whose fault is it? The lesson you're really sending is fear God to the point of wetting your pants because you have no clue when He will smite you and everyone around you out of "love".

You're right, it is indeed sickening to know that an omnimax being would treat his creation this way.

Quote[/b] ]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. I John 5:13

Nowhere does that say that the dead will either go to heaven or hell. Does it actually say ANYWHERE in the Bible that the dead will rise to heaven to be with God? Contrarily, it says that Christ will come down to US. Another topic for another day, but once again, I find it amusing that one a very important topic there can be hundreds of different interpretations.

Quote[/b] ]And all this because the Bible says so, silly!!
The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

ADIOS logic! If the Bible were the mind and word of God, why didn't He pen it? Why didn't Christ pen any documents? Instead, He left his one and only book to be translated and written by His fallible creation. Does this God EVER learn?

Quote[/b] ]It is the traveler's map, the pilgrim's staff, the pilot's compass, the soldier's sword, and the Christian's charter. Here Paradise is restored, Heaven opened, and the gates of hell disclosed.

Funny how so many people can believe they are going in the right direction and be ridiculed by others holding the same map for going in the WRONG direction.

A GOOD map is one that gets you at your destination in a straightforward way. The Bible is NOT a good map.

Quote[/b] ]Christ is its grand subject, our good the design, and the glory of God its end.

The NT maybe, but what is the grand subject of the OT?

Quote[/b] ]You mention the invisible pink unicorn. If you say he is there, DV, I will believe. I don't think you would have any reason to lead me astray! You ask Him to reveal Himself, He has, in His Book, the Bible!

I'm sure Benny Hinn's followers also believe that he would never, ever lead them astray, but your own words admit that he does. Such is the problem with Faith. Put it in the wrong thing and it can be very, very dangerous.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (SilentAssassin @ Jan. 22 2005,8:27)]

Quote[/b] ]Whoever said GOD created these "MISERIES"? Satan's plan for attacking YOU DV! (his plan is generally actually the same for attacking all of us)

A lot of good God is doing you since you are being attacked just as much as I am.

Quote[/b] ]1. Tempt you to sin.

You are tempted the same as you have always been. We've already been through this, you just choose not to remember. You claimed that the Holy Spirit helps you not to sin, but you admitted that you still have problems being tempted. So what did it do for you? I'm tempted to, but I don't need a super magical imaginary friend to show me what's right and wrong. Obviously, you do.

Quote[/b] ]2. Whisper it into your pink brain until you do what he wants.

The brain isn't pink, it's grey. Funny the things science can teach you. By the way, the earth is flat and revolves around the sun.

Quote[/b] ]3. Say 'YOU ARE BAD, YOU DID THE WRONG THING!

' even though he's the one who told you to do it.

LOL, I seriously imagine you having this conversation with yourself. You are simply manifesting your weakness upon an imaginary being instead of owning up to it.

Quote[/b] ]I don't think this answers most of your question. Or even a bit. But whatever.

None of your posts ever do

Quote[/b] ]We ARE giving you the answers, but you're just using the same argument to defeat our answers, then poking us through our computer monitors, saying we haven't answered your quesiton.

If I ask you what 1 plus 1 is and you tell me GREEN, then yes, you answered the question. Unfortunately it was wrong and didn't even address the question. So yes, I'm going to keep poking you between the eyes until you can see the question AND the answer.

Quote[/b] ]Sherlock Holmes was an opium addict. So I wouldn't choose him for a quote.

Errr. Sherlock Holmes was FICTIONAL. No matter what his problems, the truth stands in that quote. Too bad you're too immature to recognize that. One day maybe.

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]And please, think of a better answer than "Free Will", that's a completely illogical argument.

Quite the contrary...

We've had lengthy theological discussion on Free will yet the search on the boards does not seem to be working correctly so I am unable to locate the thread for you to read again. Regarding free will and the proverbial question, "Wouldn't it have been easier to create man inherently good" can simply be answered with a resounding 'no.'

If you remember the discussion, God's whole purpose for creating mankind was to have eternal fellowship with those that truly love Him. So, to create man as inherently good robots with no possibility of the opposite would not allow for true love. Love that comes from a free choice of will is the one and only true love, wouldn't you agree? In other words, love is not genuine when there is no other option. So the free will argument is quite reasonable and logically sound.

Quote[/b] ]The truth is you do not KNOW, instead you HOPE and WISH. You can not KNOW God exists by any amount of Faith, that is the simple, plain answer.

The truth is we do know He exists DV. The truth is we know Jesus was born and walked this earth, was crucified, and rose again. We've discussed why we believe what we believe, yet those will still choose to deny the truth even when confronted with it. For thousands of years, there have been those that have tried to discredit and explain away the early church and the historical record. You in particular have not been able to soundly refute why the church even survived the crucifixion. Why would the twelve go on to die such excruciating deaths for a hoax? They saw Him die and were cowering in the upper room awaiting the Sanhedrin to kill them next. Yet they emerge bold, and preaching Christ risen.

Quote[/b] ]ADIOS logic! If the Bible were the mind and word of God, why didn't He pen it? Why didn't Christ pen any documents? Instead, He left his one and only book to be translated and written by His fallible creation. Does this God EVER learn?

Haven't we had this discussion already? Christ didn't have to pen the Scriptures DV, they were already penned and He validated their authority as divinely inspired. We have discussed the doctrine of inspiration in length, and I am unable to locate the thread. Maybe I'm using the search incorrectly. However, I'd be willing to discuss it again just so you are clear on what the doctrine holds. The short of it is this: The Holy Spirit divinely inspired the writings of the Old and New Testament. In otherwords, the Holy Spirit supervised the selection of materials to be used and the words to be employed in writing, and preserved the authors from all error and from all omission. As a conseqence, the original manuscripts are inerrant.

Quote[/b] ]A GOOD map is one that gets you at your destination in a straightforward way. The Bible is NOT a good map.

There is nothing wrong with the map. The problem is, there are those that won't take the time to learn how to read it correctly.

I'd like to respond to the rest of your posts but don't have the time right now. This does seem a little deja vu though wouldn't you say?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Watcher @ Jan. 24 2005,12:52)]

Quote[/b] ]We've had lengthy theological discussion on Free will yet the search on the boards does not seem to be working correctly so I am unable to locate the thread for you to read again. Regarding free will and the proverbial question, "Wouldn't it have been easier to create man inherently good" can simply be answered with a resounding 'no.'

If you remember the discussion, God's whole purpose for creating mankind was to have eternal fellowship with those that truly love Him. So, to create man as inherently good robots with no possibility of the opposite would not allow for true love. Love that comes from a free choice of will is the one and only true love, wouldn't you agree? In other words, love is not genuine when there is no other option. So the free will argument is quite reasonable and logically sound.

Those points raise more questions than they answer. Why does an omnimax being NEED anything? How did an omnimax being get lonely? If God can do ANYTHING, then couldn't He create beings that would love Him and NOT be automatons? If the purpose was to create beings to love Him, then why does He allow so much pain and suffering to afflict us? If the sole purpose of our existence is comraderie, then where is God? By not being out in the open, how are we to decide whether or not to love Him? Why all the smoke and mirrors? Why is all the subterfuge necessary? Sorry, but the Free Will argument is NOT sound. The primary reason is that Christians use FW to explain why God is absent from our daily lives. That didn't seem to stop Him in the OT now did it? Why were those days different than now?

Quote[/b] ]The truth is we do know He exists DV. The truth is we know Jesus was born and walked this earth, was crucified, and rose again. We've discussed why we believe what we believe, yet those will still choose to deny the truth even when confronted with it. For thousands of years, there have been those that have tried to discredit and explain away the early church and the historical record. You in particular have not been able to soundly refute why the church even survived the crucifixion. Why would the twelve go on to die such excruciating deaths for a hoax? They saw Him die and were cowering in the upper room awaiting the Sanhedrin to kill them next. Yet they emerge bold, and preaching Christ risen.

First of all, I was never tasked with explaining why the church survived after the crucifixion. I'd love to, but that's a discussion in and of itself. Have you ever stopped to think that they were bold because Christ told them that He would return before they died? Christians have believed they were personally living in the "last days" for over 2000 years. People believe that today. I'm sure people will believe that another 1000 years from now.

Quote[/b] ]Haven't we had this discussion already? Christ didn't have to pen the Scriptures DV, they were already penned and He validated their authority as divinely inspired. We have discussed the doctrine of inspiration in length, and I am unable to locate the thread. Maybe I'm using the search incorrectly. However, I'd be willing to discuss it again just so you are clear on what the doctrine holds. The short of it is this: The Holy Spirit divinely inspired the writings of the Old and New Testament. In otherwords, the Holy Spirit supervised the selection of materials to be used and the words to be employed in writing, and preserved the authors from all error and from all omission. As a conseqence, the original manuscripts are inerrant.

This is beside the point, which is why Christ didn't write one jot or one tittle. The further fact of the matter is that if the Bible were divinely inspired, why does it contain so many errors? You claim the original manuscripts are inerrant, but how many people on these boards can read them? How many professing Christians can read the original manuscripts? Why are there numerous translations? Shouldn't there be just ONE?

Quote[/b] ]There is nothing wrong with the map. The problem is, there are those that won't take the time to learn how to read it correctly.

Again, I ask you, what is the purpose of a map? Should it be difficult or easy to understand? In this case, the map is of supreme importance, but there are thousands of versions of it and everyone thinks THEY have the correct one while condemning everyone else for having the wrong one.

It's also too bad that one can't be TAUGHT to read the map. Instead, there has to be some sort of magical awakening, some divine gift to make sense of it all.

Quote[/b] ]I'd like to respond to the rest of your posts but don't have the time right now. This does seem a little deja vu though wouldn't you say?

No one likes beating a dead horse, but understanding has yet to be reached.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

Never mind. I am creating a topic. It's kind of a general reminder to all of us.