The Natural World
- Thread starter Dark Virtue
- Start date
Genesis1315
Ladies
[b said:
uummm, no. What I was saying is that there is always a chance to grow closer to God - Natural disaster, waking up in the morning, driving to work, responding to posts in a msg board, etc
[b said:
Too bad so sad?
This provides the example to which I was refering. As cliche as it sounds, you don't know when you are going to die. Seems a bit risky living without a guarantee of heaven
[b said:
It may not be love that causes one to seek God.
Regarding the creation of evil:
How can God allow for free choice, without providing choices?
Dark Virtue
New Member
[b said:
Bingo. Sorry Marcy, you read that out of context.
[b said:
How does killing hundreds of thousands of people in a tsunami give them a chance to grow closer to God? You said yourself, those that didn't believe, whether they were exposed to Christianity or not, are rotting in #### this very second.
[b said:
This is Pascal's Wager, which I have already pointed out as being flawed and illogical.
[b said:
What other reason should there be?
Does God want us to follow Him because we genuinely love Him and choose to be with Him, or does God wants us to follow Him for no other reason than fear of ####?
[b said:
God showing up and saying "HI" has absolutely no bearing on Free Will. We still have a choice to follow Him or not, just like everyone else did in the OT. In fact, if you want to examine your question LOGICALLY, God is actually IMPEDING your Free Will by offering you a good choice and a bad choice. Do you want heaven or do you want ####? You're telling me that choice doesn't tip the scales of Free Will more one way than the next? As I have said before, that's not a choice, that's an ultimatum.
Genesis1315
Ladies
Ok, we are not going down the free will argument again. Stopping it now.
I am referring to those who are still living. At any point in life there is a chance to grow closer to God. (Please focus on the survivors for just a minute. We can address those who were killed in the tsunami after this point)
Psalms 111:10The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow His instructions have good insight. His praise endures forever.
Please consider the definitions of the word fear
Fear (Original Word = hary) fear, terror, fearing
1. fear, terror
2. awesome or terrifying thing (object causing fear)
3. fear (of God), respect, reverence, piety
4. revered
[b said:
I am referring to those who are still living. At any point in life there is a chance to grow closer to God. (Please focus on the survivors for just a minute. We can address those who were killed in the tsunami after this point)
[b said:
Psalms 111:10The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow His instructions have good insight. His praise endures forever.
Please consider the definitions of the word fear
Fear (Original Word = hary) fear, terror, fearing
1. fear, terror
2. awesome or terrifying thing (object causing fear)
3. fear (of God), respect, reverence, piety
4. revered
LionOfJudah
Member, Dreamcast Fishing Guru
no i have not read this entire post, just DV's first one and want to make a quick comment
I find natural disasters to be highly beautiful and awe inspiring.
i was in FL when Charley and the other hurricanes hit, i was right near Port Charolate (hardest hit area basicly destroyed) just south about 40 miles or so in Fort myers. i spent much of the time during the hurricane outside on my back porch (yes i am a moron)
as far as the tsunami i find them just as beautiful.
such raw power in nature, so much we do not understand. there is usually more power in one of these storms than what a nuclear plant makes in a yr or so. (random i dont know if it is true or not).
Now i am sure others have mention this is a fallen world and thus isnt perfect like God wanted it to be for us and so these storms happen blah blah blah blah...
Sorry but i would find life highly boring, if everything was perfect and handed to me so nice and neatly.
A wise man once said
"There is nothing so unnatural as the commonplace."
What is the meaning of human life, or of organic life altogether? To answer this question at all implies a religion. Is there any sense then, you ask, in putting it? I answer, the man who regards his own life and that of his fellow creatures as meaningless is not merely unfortunate but almost disqualified for life.
Albert Einstein
I find natural disasters to be highly beautiful and awe inspiring.
i was in FL when Charley and the other hurricanes hit, i was right near Port Charolate (hardest hit area basicly destroyed) just south about 40 miles or so in Fort myers. i spent much of the time during the hurricane outside on my back porch (yes i am a moron)
as far as the tsunami i find them just as beautiful.
such raw power in nature, so much we do not understand. there is usually more power in one of these storms than what a nuclear plant makes in a yr or so. (random i dont know if it is true or not).
Now i am sure others have mention this is a fallen world and thus isnt perfect like God wanted it to be for us and so these storms happen blah blah blah blah...
Sorry but i would find life highly boring, if everything was perfect and handed to me so nice and neatly.
A wise man once said
"There is nothing so unnatural as the commonplace."
What is the meaning of human life, or of organic life altogether? To answer this question at all implies a religion. Is there any sense then, you ask, in putting it? I answer, the man who regards his own life and that of his fellow creatures as meaningless is not merely unfortunate but almost disqualified for life.
Albert Einstein
Dark Virtue
New Member
I'm glad you find natural disasters beautiful LOJ.
Somehow I doubt any of the survivors of the recent tragedy would agree with you, and I'm pretty darn sure none of the dead ones would agree either if they could speak.
I still fail to realize how a survivor of this disaster, that lost everything they own including loved ones, can look back on the devastation and see God in the picture. And if they DO, what would prompt them to follow this being that destroyed everything they hold dear? How do you respect and revere a being that does that. Keep in mind that this survivor is living in abject squalor, trying to find a drop of water to drink and hoping for a food packet to calm their starving belly.
Somehow I doubt any of the survivors of the recent tragedy would agree with you, and I'm pretty darn sure none of the dead ones would agree either if they could speak.
[b said:
I still fail to realize how a survivor of this disaster, that lost everything they own including loved ones, can look back on the devastation and see God in the picture. And if they DO, what would prompt them to follow this being that destroyed everything they hold dear? How do you respect and revere a being that does that. Keep in mind that this survivor is living in abject squalor, trying to find a drop of water to drink and hoping for a food packet to calm their starving belly.
SLNT_FIR
New Member
in response to my post, Jesus time there WERE disasters. ever since adam sinned... the garden of eden WAS perfect, but it probably doesn't exist anymore... >.> and do you expect everything to still be perfect? no.
URACorpse
Member
[b said:
I can't speak to this particular disaster but I can speak on having some limited experience with hardship. When I was young my family suffered the loss of everything we had but the clothes on our backs because of a fire. The only other thing that was saved was my mother’s car. A fireman moved it moments before the brick wall of the 4 story building fell on where it was parked. Granted we did receive aid, most notably from the Salvation Army, and one of our cousins provided a roof over our heads until we found a place to live. I understand that the tsunami victims have it much harder than we did. My point is simply that my family did experience devastating loss and never lost site of God. There were several miracles that night that saved our lives. I learned at a very early age that there is always hope in Jesus. Over the years I've learned that during the hard times of my life that is when I have grown spiritually and as a result my love for God increases.
I will never understand why things happen as they do. But because of what I've learned in the Bible and my experiences over the years have born proof that God's word can be trusted, I trust God to care for me even in the hardest of times
Dark Virtue
New Member
How do you KNOW it was perfect?[b said:
If it was PERFECT, why was the serpent allowed in the Garden to deceive Eve?
Dark Virtue
New Member
Thanks for sharing your personal experience with us, as always, it is welcome.[b said:
However, this thread is very particular, calling into question "natural" disasters that God, being the omnimax intelligent designer, created.
I have a paper to write so I'm making this brief.
Why must we suffer for God's glory? Can't He glorify Himself within the trinity? I imagine He can do a better job than we can anyway, right?
So many people enduring eternal torment for the glory of a "merciful" God. Meh, I'd go into a rant but it's pointless and would take too much time.
Why must we suffer for God's glory? Can't He glorify Himself within the trinity? I imagine He can do a better job than we can anyway, right?
So many people enduring eternal torment for the glory of a "merciful" God. Meh, I'd go into a rant but it's pointless and would take too much time.
Dark Virtue
New Member
Amen
it's good to talk about them and discuss. but i think we've already answered that question. or i have just now.
The problem with that analogy is that a parent does not design/create the mind of their child nor does a parent completely dictate the environment of their child.
What I'm saying is this..God gave you a mind that will react to different environments/circumstances in a certain way. For instance, some people will be very open and talkative in a big crowd of people while others simply want nothing more then to be invisible.
So then, this brings on the following question. If God did not want man to fall why did He allow Satan into the garden? "I know that if this serpent is allowed into the garden and talks to you guys the human race will fall and people will suffer and go to #### and all that, but I'll let it happen anyway." I am inclined to think that God wanted man to fall, did He not? Was that not part of His grand plan? So then, what is worse? Throwing man into a pit of hungry lions or being one of those lions yourself?
But man chose, right? He chose to do those bad things that got him to ####. He chose to not accept Christ and end up enduring eternal torment, right? But, when God designed our minds to react to different circumstances in a certain way, He knew what the result would be. Why would He design the minds of people to react in a way that He did not want them to react? Is He not perfect? Certainly God did not make a mistake?!?
God works in mysterious ways? I am inclined to disagree. We bleed, He is glorified. We worship, He is glorified. He works for nothing more then His glory. This includes loving man and killing man. Thanks God, keep up the good work
(If that did not make any sense I'll be happy to post a more coherent post later on when I'm awake)
What I'm saying is this..God gave you a mind that will react to different environments/circumstances in a certain way. For instance, some people will be very open and talkative in a big crowd of people while others simply want nothing more then to be invisible.
So then, this brings on the following question. If God did not want man to fall why did He allow Satan into the garden? "I know that if this serpent is allowed into the garden and talks to you guys the human race will fall and people will suffer and go to #### and all that, but I'll let it happen anyway." I am inclined to think that God wanted man to fall, did He not? Was that not part of His grand plan? So then, what is worse? Throwing man into a pit of hungry lions or being one of those lions yourself?
But man chose, right? He chose to do those bad things that got him to ####. He chose to not accept Christ and end up enduring eternal torment, right? But, when God designed our minds to react to different circumstances in a certain way, He knew what the result would be. Why would He design the minds of people to react in a way that He did not want them to react? Is He not perfect? Certainly God did not make a mistake?!?
God works in mysterious ways? I am inclined to disagree. We bleed, He is glorified. We worship, He is glorified. He works for nothing more then His glory. This includes loving man and killing man. Thanks God, keep up the good work
(If that did not make any sense I'll be happy to post a more coherent post later on when I'm awake)
SLNT_FIR
New Member
Again, it's like from your DOG'S perspective. Imagine him trying to know about you as much as you know about yourself. Silly. He would know very little. Same thing about God. Our words express HUMAN experiances. So they fail to capture God's portrait very well.