The Natural World

[Dark Virtue]

In another thread it was suggested that all the evidence one needs to believe in God can be found in nature. The colors of a sunset, the glory of the ocean, panoramic forests, all the way down to the intricacy of a single snowflake.

Unfortunately, that sounds to me like a one sided argument. If you ask me to consider nature to illustrate the existence of God, shouldn't I consider ALL of nature? The good AND the bad.

I already understand why some of you believe the good things in nature point to God, but how do you reconcile the rest? How do you deal with the tsunamis, volcanoes, hurricanes and tornadoes in the world? Someone suggested that one shouldn't complain about tsunamis if you live on the coast. That seems a bit narrow-minded to me. Where else will these people live? Throughout history, it is the coastline that has been the most important part of the world. Not only does it provide food, but also commerce and trade with other civilizations. That being said, where exactly would be a safe place to live? The coasts are out due to hurricanes, the central areas are out due to tornadoes, forget the earthquake prone areas and the occasional volcano. Even the insurance industry labels them "Acts of God" not accidents.

So, how does one reconcile natural disasters with natural beauty?

 

[Marcylene]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Jan. 13 2005,6:02)]1. In another thread it was suggested that all the evidence one needs to believe in God can be found in nature.  The colors of a sunset, the glory of the ocean, panoramic forests, all the way down to the intricacy of a single snowflake.
2. if you love on the coast

National Geographic -  A Good Source to Learn the Beauty and Wonder of All Things Created By God in His Majesty
1. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Psalm 19:1
O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches. Psalm 104:24

Psalm 104 in its entirity is a beautiful look at God's creation.  The universe is more, ohhh, so much more than just beauty!  And by it we see God; the Bible says so!

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being uderstood by the things that are made, even his eternal power an Godhead; so that they are without excuse.  Romans 1:20

And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.  I think you are blaming the wrong person.  I don't think you will find God being a part of disaster.  He could destroy us all, but he came so that we may have life!  DV, you are entirely too quick to make God out to be some horrible, hideous, monster all the while denying God, therefore making your choice for the one who is the source of our sin and misery.  God made all good and perfect gifts.  The enemy will twist everything.  Why did God give him free reign for a time?  I am not sure.  Why did he create him at all?  Well, it was sin that made the enemy into the creature he is now, it was not God's creation.  He is the prince of the power of the air.  As long as he is a part of this world, and as long as we continue in sin...how could we expect this world to be Heaven?

2.

love on the coast

 

[MaxX]

Apparently because we caused the bad things to happen by disobeying God, he made the good things.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]I think you are blaming the wrong person. I don't think you will find God being a part of disaster.

Hmmm...do the plagues in Egypt count as a disaster? How was God NOT a part of those disasters?

Quote[/b] ]DV, you are entirely too quick to make God out to be some horrible, hideous, monster all the while denying God, therefore making your choice for the one who is the source of our sin and misery.

Explain to me how I "deny" God. Just because YOU believe in God without proof, doesn't mean that I can do the same. Turnabout is fair play, I accuse YOU of only looking at the good, while ignoring all the EVIL things that God has done. Striking children dead for calling a man "baldie"? How was that good and righteous?

Quote[/b] ]God made all good and perfect gifts.

This is my point, which you have so eloquently glossed over. If ALL of God's creations are good and perfect, then why is the weather so far from perfect? Or do you blame the weather on Satan? You can't have it both ways. Either God created the weather and set the pattern in motion, or Satan did. Which is it?

Quote[/b] ]The enemy will twist everything. Why did God give him free reign for a time? I am not sure.

So you ARE saying that Satan has complete control over weather patterns?

Quote[/b] ]Why did he create him at all? Well, it was sin that made the enemy into the creature he is now, it was not God's creation.

Ah, but it WAS God's creation. You are forgetting the concept of omniscience. God KNEW prior to Satan's creation that he would be evil, and God created him anyway. Therefore God CONDONED Satan's evil, God WANTED Satan to be Evil, God NEEDED Satan to be Evil. If God didn't want evil, then all He had to do was NOT create Satan.

Quote[/b] ]He is the prince of the power of the air. As long as he is a part of this world, and as long as we continue in sin...how could we expect this world to be Heaven?

Who granted Satan that title? Again, I point you to the fact that God created him for a purpose...therefore, God created Evil.

Quote[/b] ]2.

love on the coast

Freudian slip

 

[Avesther]

DV, if God exists and created all that you see, don't see, understand and don't understand, would God be sovereign over it?

Disasters are tragic...but not as hopeless as the media makes them out to be. Yes, its a horrid thought that 150,000 people died in one fell swoop of a wave. But how many children die everyday from hunger, how many people die from car accidents, how many from cancer? Many people die everyday at the same time. Is 150,000 people dead from a wave more tragic then 150,000 people dead from preventable causes? The media has certainly made it out so.

How many people that would have died normally in the weeks following from starvation and disease won't now because of all the attetion the so called destitute of the world are receiving? Maybe hundreds of thousands of people? A lot of generousity has been shown again that would not have been normally there. But where is your accreditation of that? If God can allow a disaster to happen, then why not also provide a means to bridge over it?

If the disaster awakens the world, and programs are put into place...what then. The good far outweighs what the liberal media has labelled bad. The stone of destruction is nothing compared to the mountain love that was shown after the fact.

Why do you choose to make the bad out to be biggger then the good?

 

[Marcylene]

I really don't know how to answer any more than I have already tried.  I do not have the answers. There are beautiful hymns that state one day we will understand it.
Sometime We'll Understand
Farther Along
I am not certain that this is true for while the songs have beautiful sentiment, the Bible says:

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.  Isaiah 65:17

I don't suppose it would be Heaven if we did remember.  Or, once in Heaven would all this matter, that is, other than what we have done for God?  

I do ponder the things that you ask.  Again, I do not have all the answers.  I do know by the grace of God and His everlasting Love and mercy, I will cling to Him and trust Him in all things.  He knows best.  While it may not seem so at times, granted, I tell you truthfully, His Word is the only thing we can depend upon.  God is Love.  Therefore, as we try to understand Him we need to keep that first and foremost in our minds.

I can imagine that while I was a thought in his mind I begged to be created.  He knew, my desire to love and be loved by others, to know laughter and joy, would come with a price, for I would have a sin nature in order to have all that I asked.  The law would require blood. It is something Spiritual that I do not understand.  That is not saying a lot, I have much to learn!  Yet, any relationship I have been in, including that of my Heavenly Father, or anything I have ever studied, including the Bible, God's Holy Word, I have found, the more I know, the more there is to know.

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]I don't suppose it would be Heaven if we did remember.

With complete understanding of Gods grace, mercy and justice, these disasters will no longer be seen or understood as disasters. We will understand who died and why. The only reason that disasters are so horrid in our minds is because of our lack of understanding of why. We know who, what, where, when and how, the only thing that is missing is the why.

Nobody is worried about the distruction of that which will be rebuilt...we place a higher value on life. Somehow we think they have been taken before their time, but that is our thinking. They were taken according to Gods timetable, just as each of us will be. We do not know when or how, we just know it will happen.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Jan. 13 2005,7:22)]

Quote[/b] ]DV, if God exists and created all that you see, don't see, understand and don't understand, would God be sovereign over it?

What does sovereignty have to do with anthing? If God WAS sovereign over EVERYthing, then wouldn't He have to be responsible for the evil as well as the good?

Quote[/b] ]Disasters are tragic...but not as hopeless as the media makes them out to be. Yes, its a horrid thought that 150,000 people died in one fell swoop of a wave. But how many children die everyday from hunger, how many people die from car accidents, how many from cancer? Many people die everyday at the same time. Is 150,000 people dead from a wave more tragic then 150,000 people dead from preventable causes? The media has certainly made it out so.

How many people that would have died normally in the weeks following from starvation and disease won't now because of all the attetion the so called destitute of the world are receiving? Maybe hundreds of thousands of people? A lot of generousity has been shown again that would not have been normally there. But where is your accreditation of that? If God can allow a disaster to happen, then why not also provide a means to bridge over it?

Good point. But that's a topic for another day. Right now we're discussing weather, not the concept of necessary evil.

Quote[/b] ]If the disaster awakens the world, and programs are put into place...what then. The good far outweighs what the liberal media has labelled bad. The stone of destruction is nothing compared to the mountain love that was shown after the fact.

Exactly how is the disaster supposed to awaken the world? How many believers died in churches as they were praying to God to avert the disaster. How many prayers does it take to avert a disaster like this. This is what I never understood about prayer. You expect me to believe that God devotes His time and energy to making sure someone gets to work on time, or their car will start in the morning, or any number of mundane daily things that are singularly attributed to God's intervention, but millions of prayers fall deaf of God's ears?

Quote[/b] ]Why do you choose to make the bad out to be biggger then the good?

I'm not doing that. I am merely filling a void from believers who fail to acknowledge that God created good AND evil.

Please stick to the topic at hand. How do you reconcile the beauty of nature with the disasters? And in so doing, how do the natural disasters prove the existence of God's Intelligent Design?

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]What does sovereignty have to do with anthing?  If God WAS sovereign over EVERYthing, then wouldn't He have to be responsible for the evil as well as the good?  

Define good and evil.  The people who went to war for Hitler didn't think they were evil, they thought they were doing good.  Evil and good in our eyes is pretty subjective.  In Gods eyes, they are pretty concrete.  We think adversity is evil, but in order to build muscle, you must first tear it.  Sin is evil to God, God didn't create sin, he created the capacity to sin.

Quote[/b] ]Exactly how is the disaster supposed to awaken the world?

The apathy amongst nations is sickening.  It takes disasters to wake up nations to put aside their petty differences and devote resources into developing nations into become partners in an ever growing and changing world.

Quote[/b] ]How many believers died in churches as they were praying to God to avert the disaster.

Any believer prays as Jesus did to the Father in the Garden.

Quote[/b] ]How many prayers does it take to avert a disaster like this.

One, if it be Gods will.  Maybe, it would've taken yours.

Quote[/b] ]This is what I never understood about prayer.  You expect me to believe that God devotes His time and energy to making sure someone gets to work on time, or their car will start in the morning, or any number of mundane daily things that are singularly attributed to God's intervention, but millions of prayers fall deaf of God's ears?

Prayer is not about being selfish, like you claim it to be, its about communion with the father.  Prayer is about seeking Gods will, not about winning the lottery.  Where in the bible does it say we are to pray selfishly?

Are you arguing that you don't beleive there is a God because there is no evidence of prayer being answered the way you want it (or expect it) to be answered? How is it that these occurances are not evidence of God?

 

[PapaToad]

Wow the discussions never change. DV I pray all is well with you and your family.

I think the only things that proves God to a persons heart is faith, How that faith is built, well thats between God and the person.  I do not believe God created evil any more than if your Child does some thing 'evil" you did not create that "Act, your child did.

And if it does, should you destroy it before it is guilty, of the crime?

And If God knows the outcome of the World, and exsistance. I do not feel the need to second gesus Him. But I believe in my God and savior, Lord Jesus Christ. My belief makes the difference.




Take care DV

good to see ya

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Jan. 13 2005,11:45)]

Quote[/b] ]Define good and evil.

Good: something conforming to the moral order of the universe; praiseworthy character. Note that in a previous discussion I asserted that moral good is subjective that evolves within society, not an objective standard.

Evil: morally reprehensible;arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct; causing discomfort or repulsion.

Quote[/b] ]The people who went to war for Hitler didn't think they were evil, they thought they were doing good. Evil and good in our eyes is pretty subjective. In Gods eyes, they are pretty concrete. We think adversity is evil, but in order to build muscle, you must first tear it. Sin is evil to God, God didn't create sin, he created the capacity to sin.

Uhuh. So...the plagues of Egypt weren't evil? Killing off the majority of the world with a flood wasnt' evil? Killing children for calling a man "baldie" wasn't evil? Maybe YOU need to give me a definition of good and evil.

Quote[/b] ]The apathy amongst nations is sickening. It takes disasters to wake up nations to put aside their petty differences and devote resources into developing nations into become partners in an ever growing and changing world.

Exactly how does that have anything to do with an awakening to God? T

Quote[/b] ]Any believer prays as Jesus did to the Father in the Garden.

What does that answer have to do with the question I asked? I said, "How many believers died in churches as they were praying to God to avert the disaster."

Quote[/b] ]One, if it be Gods will. Maybe, it would've taken yours.

LOL, lovely, so now the tsunami was MY fault? You'd make a good Catholic. So instead, it was God's will for thousands of people to die needlessly?

Quote[/b] ]Prayer is not about being selfish, like you claim it to be, its about communion with the father. Prayer is about seeking Gods will, not about winning the lottery. Where in the bible does it say we are to pray selfishly?

Selfish? What was selfish about millions of people praying worldwide for God to avert a disaster? If anyone is making claims about being selfish it's Christians who attribute those little things I mentioned to God's will, but somehow God turns a deaf ear to millions of His followers to avert a disaster.

Quote[/b] ]Are you arguing that you don't beleive there is a God because there is no evidence of prayer being answered the way you want it (or expect it) to be answered?

That's one reason yes. Don't you do the opposite? You claim answered prayer as "proof" that God exists don't you? Why is my argument wrong and yours right?

Quote[/b] ]How is it that these occurances are not evidence of God?

How are they evidence of God? That question was in my OP.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Jan. 13 2005,10:02)]

Quote[/b] ]Wow the discussions never change. DV I pray all is well with you and your family.

I also hope you and yours are well.

Quote[/b] ]I think the only things that proves God to a persons heart is faith, How that faith is built, well thats between God and the person.

That's an argument for another time, this topic of "proving" God's existence from Nature stemmed from another discussion.

Quote[/b] ]I do not believe God created evil any more than if your Child does some thing 'evil" you did not create that "Act, your child did.

Why not? God spelled it out for you:

Isaiah 45:5-7 (King James Version)

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

And for those that want to argue the definition of evil here, follow this link.

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]What does sovereignty have to do with anthing? If God WAS sovereign over EVERYthing, then wouldn't He have to be responsible for the evil as well as the good?

Quote[/b] ]
So, how does one reconcile natural disasters with natural beauty?

God is soveriegn over it...all of it. Included your right to life. Its quite fine to question God over what he does..God encourages you to questin him on it. But to assume that God has no right to cause or allow a natural disaster to happen (or for that matter, evil) is to deny his sovereignty over all that is Gods dominion. It is reconciled through his soveriegnity.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

because of man's sin, the evil in the world has been growing. creation groans under the weight... i dunno where i got that, but somewhere...
when jesus reigns, no tidal waves. no earthquakes. why? I THINK because there is no more um... sin.

 

[Mr.Bill]

There were no natural disasters during Jesus' time Silent? What makes you say that?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Jan. 14 2005,7:47)]

Quote[/b] ]What does sovereignty have to do with anthing? If God WAS sovereign over EVERYthing, then wouldn't He have to be responsible for the evil as well as the good?

Quote[/b] ]
So, how does one reconcile natural disasters with natural beauty?

God is soveriegn over it...all of it. Included your right to life. Its quite fine to question God over what he does..God encourages you to questin him on it. But to assume that God has no right to cause or allow a natural disaster to happen (or for that matter, evil) is to deny his sovereignty over all that is Gods dominion. It is reconciled through his soveriegnity.

As I said before, if God is sovereign over EVERYTHING, then He must accept culpability for the Evil in this world.

Now, please reconcile this with the OP. If you expect me to look around at the beauty in the world and attribute it to a designer, how am I supposed to view the disasters in the world? From a design standpoint, I would consider natral disasters a huge flaw. ESPECIALLY when one considers the designer is Omnipotent and Omniscient.

Keep in mind this is a specific thread, so let's try and keep in on track.

 

[Genesis1315]

Quote[/b] ]As I said before, if God is sovereign over EVERYTHING, then He must accept culpability for the Evil in this world.

God ultimately allows whatever happens to happen, Good or evil. Off topic, but good example - Job.

But in every circumstance that is an opportunity to grow closer to God. Even in natural disasters.

Gen

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Genesis1315 @ Jan. 14 2005,10:40)]

Quote[/b] ]As I said before, if God is sovereign over EVERYTHING, then He must accept culpability for the Evil in this world.

God ultimately allows whatever happens to happen, Good or evil. Off topic, but good example - Job.

But in every circumstance that is an opportunity to grow closer to God. Even in natural disasters.

Gen

God allows evil to happen, well that's obvious. But why won't anyone admit that God was the one that CREATED evil?

Please tell me how those people that died in the tsunami grew closer to God. Keep in mind that there were plenty of people that didn't worship Him, so how could they have possibly been drawn closer to Him?

 

[Genesis1315]

Not in those that died, but in those who lived DV. Those who died went to heaven if they accepted Christ and those who did not accept Christ went to the other place.

As far as the creation of evil, I have more I want to say, just can't get the words tonight. I will collect my thoughts though by tomorrow.

Gen

 

[Dark Virtue]

So what you're saying is, "too bad for those that died, let's not talk about them, let's talk about the living?" According to religioustolerance.org, 86% of Indonesia is Muslim, with only 6% being Protestant Christian. You're telling me that 86% of those people that died are now warming a spot in ####? Since we're talking about a 4th-5th world country...how many of those that died had the opportunity to learn Christianity? Too bad, so sad though, right?

If this was some sign from God to wake up and follow Him, why was it necessary to kill Christians as well. I would have certainly taken notice of every single Christian on the island escaping injury because they were huddled in a church, but that didn't happen.

How, looking at this indiscriminate tragedy, should I, or anyone else, feel enough love for your God to seek Him out. Unless of course, God is a bully and can't get anyone to follow Him any other way. (Although He DOES have a track record of that now doesn't He?)