The Founding of America

[Dark Virtue]

Many people seem to feel that America was founded on Christian values as a Christian nation.

I don't understand why.

The original Pledge of Allegience did not include God.

Our original currency did not have "In God We Trust" on it.

Many of our Founding Fathers were DEISTS, not Christians.

Is anyone familiar with the Treaty of Tripoli? Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, haven seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.

Article 11 states:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Is this not proof enough? America was not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.

 

[Genesis1315]

Yes, the Pledge did not include under God in it originally, but I don't think that the founding fathers wrote it either

Yes, In God We Trust was not included on the original currency. It was first added in 1864.

But...

I have heard the oposite on the founding fathers. While some we diests, many were Christians. Can you provide a link please?

Also, how does the Preamble of our Dec. of Independence fit into your theory as well as the establishment clause?

Gen.

ps I am not familiar with the Treaty of Tripoli

 

[Dark Virtue]

The Declaration of Independence speaks of "Nature's God" and the "Creator". These concepts are in step with Deism.

This is an exerpt of Farrel Till's, The Christian Nation Myth

Quote[/b] ]Deism was a philosophical belief that was widely accepted by the colonial intelligentsia at the time of the American Revolution. Its major tenets included belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems and belief in a supreme deity who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws. The supreme God of the Deists removed himself entirely from the universe after creating it. They believed that he assumed no control over it, exerted no influence on natural phenomena, and gave no supernatural revelation to man. A necessary consequence of these beliefs was a rejection of many doctrines central to the Christian religion. Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible.

These beliefs were forcefully articulated by Thomas Paine in Age of Reason, a book that so outraged his contemporaries that he died rejected and despised by the nation that had once revered him as "the father of the American Revolution." To this day, many mistakenly consider him an atheist, even though he was an out spoken defender of the Deistic view of God. Other important founding fathers who espoused Deism were George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Madison, and James Monroe.

The "Creator" was the deistic god, not the God of the Bible. Thomas Paine was the author of the Declaration of Independence. If you have read any of his works you would quickly see that he DESPISED Christianity. For example, Paine said,

Quote[/b] ]"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.

Quote[/b] ]"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

Quote[/b] ]"The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."

As you can see, he was NOT a Christian, nor did he support Christianity.

 

[Marcylene]

My dear, dear, dear, DV.

Consider your sources. They seem to twist history in the same manner that they twist God's Word! You are hanging out with the wrong historical and scientific camp!
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1777/fathers.html

But where says some is the King of America? I'll tell you Friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the Royal Brute of Britain...let it be brought forth placed on the divine law, the word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America THE LAW IS KING.
Thomas Paine, Common Sense, 1776

The Pilgrim's came for religious freedom.
http://www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/allam/16071783/religion.htm

http://www.lexrex.com/enlight....ion.htm Were they not simply trying to separate church and state? Is that not what Article 11 is stating?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Marcy, you are very very right!

We should really consider the sources we use shouldn't we?

Let's take a look at the web page you used:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1777/fathers.html

It includes this quote:

Quote[/b] ]"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." -John Quincy Adams

That quote comes from William J. Federer's, America's God and Country: Encyclopedia of Quotations, p. 18. Federer provides a date for the quotation (July 4, 1821), and gives the source as follows: John Wingate Thornton, The Pulpit of the American Revolution 1860 (reprinted NY: Burt Franklin, 1860; 1970), p. XXIX.

Unfortunately JQA NEVER UTTERED THOSE WORDS. And even if he HAD, they would have been incorrect, as the federal Constitution doesn't embody Christianity.

SOURCE: http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/misq5.htm

Your site also quotes Jefferson as saying, "The bible is the cornerstone for American liberty." This was the same man that said, "have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded upon fables and mythologies." He so believed this that he edited and created his OWN version of the bible!

I would be VERY careful, as you have warned me, about where you get your info from

I can NOT believe you quoted Thomas Paine either!

Paine authored "The Age of Reason". The sole purpose of the book was to attack "the monstrous belief that God has spoken to man."

You said the Pilgrims came here for religious freedom, right? Well consider this (from your cited webpage)

Although the plan was to escape persecution, there was actually some amount of persecution happening in the colonies. One example of this persecution would be with the Puritans. The Puritans wanted everyone to worship in the Puritan way. In order to ensure that Puritanism dominated the colonies, nonconformists were fined, banished, whipped, and even imprisoned for not conforming to the way of the Puritans.

WHOA! Doesn't that make them hypocrites?

Sorry Marcy, but I had to point out the errors in your site. That is, after all, what you were trying to do for me.

Believe me, the company I keep is just fine

 

[Marcylene]

I know, I know!  Do you have a smug grin as you are pointing those things out?  
DV, you do give me food for thought and I am growing thereby!  There is controversy in information, that I can see as I research your history and science .  
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.  Grace be with thee.  Amen.   I Timothy 6: 20 & 21
I did not care much for science or history in school. That is not so much the case now.  I would, however, lean toward a Godly man's view.  I have not a single doubt there are some reputable sources.  Carl Baugh, I have had the privilege of hearing, and I respect his teaching.  (and WHEW!  the research is done for me  

Children in whom was no blemish, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability in them to stand in the king's palace, and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans. Daniel 1:4
Not a single thing wrong with science.  It is that understanding part I am having a difficult time with!  I was mentioning you today, and what I had done with my time during my illness last week!  My eyes glazed over as she gave some scientific data, but I did catch that energy never ends and even the strongest of atheistic believers knows that life will never end!  

I may never stand a chance in a battle of wits against you, DV.  However, there is hope...
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
I Corinthians 1:27

As for the Pilgim's...they brought religion here.  Yet, as expected when you put it in the mix, fightings and war seem to shortly follow!

As for father Paine...do you think the quote I found was after he repented and was saved?  Where are those Godly accurate sources when you need them?

"A patriot without religions is as great a paradox as an honest man without the fear of God...The scriptures tell us 'righteousness exalts a nation.'" -- Abigail Adams

"Proclaim liberty throughout the land unto all the inhabitants thereof." --Leviticus 25:10, inscribed on the Liberty Bell

"Let us have faith that right makes might; and in that faith let us dare to do our duty as we understand it."
--Abraham Lincoln, Address, New York City, Feb. 21, 1859

Amen! and AMEN! Let's all stand and sing America the Beautiful, God Bless America, Star Spangled Banner
and the grande finale...Statue of Liberty

Statue of Liberty
Words and Music by Neil Enloe

In New York harbor stands a lady,
with a torch raised to the sky.
And all who see her, know she stands for
liberty for you and I.
I'm so proud to be called an American
To be named with the brave and the free
I will honor our flag and our trust in God,
and the Statue of Liberty.

On lonely Golgotha, stood a cross,
with my Lord raised to the sky.
And all who kneel there live forever,
as all the saved can testify.
I'm so glad to be called a Christian,
to be named with the ransomed and whole.
As the statue liberates the citizen,
so the cross liberates the soul.

Oh, the cross is my Statue of Liberty,
it was there that my soul was set free;
Unashamed I'll proclaim that a rugged cross
is my Statue of Liberty.

LADY LIBERTY SAYS
Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Psalm 119:105

 

[ByblosHex]

:: Wishes adultery was still a mjaor crime with major punishment ::

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]I know, I know! Do you have a smug grin as you are pointing those things out?

It was only a little one! Honest

Quote[/b] ]As for the Pilgim's...they brought religion here. Yet, as expected when you put it in the mix, fightings and war seem to shortly follow!

Sorry to hold your feet to the fire on this one, but again, doesn't that make them hypocritical? They came here to escape religious oppression, but in turn, created their own oppression.

Quote[/b] ]As for father Paine...do you think the quote I found was after he repented and was saved? Where are those Godly accurate sources when you need them?

Paine never recanted, that is a myth. When on his death-bed Paine was beset by emissaries of the church; nurses, priests, and laymen -- who by entreaties and threats tried to compel him to renounce his Deistic and Anti-Christian opinions. Paine was sincere in his beliefs though, and remained so till the end.

Ingersoll went against the newspaper, The Observer, who repeatedly printed testimony that Paine recanted on his deathbed. This however, was a lie and was attested to by Paine's friends who were actually AT his deathbed.

Quote[/b] ] "From the bottom of my heart I thank myself for having compelled you to admit that Thomas Paine did not recant.

"You have eaten your own words, and, for my part, I would rather have dined with Ezekiel than with you.

"I ask you if it is honest to throw away the testimony of his friends -- the evidence of fair and honorable men -- and take the putrid words of avowed and malignant enemies?

"When Thomas Paine was dying, he was infested by fanatics -- by the snaky spies of bigotry. In the shadows of death were the unclean birds of prey waiting to tear with beak and claw the corpse of him who wrote the 'Rights of Man.' And there lurking and crouching in the darkness were the jackals and hyenas of superstition ready to violate his grave.

"These birds of prey -- these unclean beasts are the witnesses produced and relied upon by you.

"One by one the instruments of torture have been wrenched from the cruel clutch of the Church, until within the armory of orthodoxy there remains but one weapon -- Slander."

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (ByblosHex @ Oct. 19 2004,6:16)]:: Wishes adultery was still a mjaor crime with major punishment ::

Byblos, exactly what do you mean by that?

Especially in this thread where it doesn't have any place?

 

[ByblosHex]

well in the colonial times Adultry was a very serious crime with strict punishment... in my opinion that is one of the WORST crimes someone can commit.

 

[Rithkil]

Yes

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (ByblosHex @ Oct. 19 2004,9:11)]well in the colonial times Adultry was a very serious crime with strict punishment... in my opinion that is one of the WORST crimes someone can commit.

And what does that have to do with the founding of America under the misconception that it was done under the premise of Christianity?

 

[ByblosHex]

To the Christian Adultry is a very serious crime... I dont know any other 'belief' that feels so stringly and specific about this crime.

 

[Dark Virtue]

But what placed does it have in this thread???

 

[Marcylene]

Please forgive me, DV. It has no place in this thread, but I would prefer not to start another one for this topic, if I may? I want to say this as much out of love as I can. I must be honest, it has bothered me since the second I read it. You are my brothers in Christ and I feel led to say something. In Joshua Chapters 2 & 6, the story of Rahab the Harlot is told. I believe that she was called by that entire name to remind us that Jesus loved us while we were yet sinners. The story is rich with detail. She put the scarlet thread in the window, and I believe it was in the shape of a cross! We have the woman at the well, the woman accused of adultery. These too, were adulteress' that Jesus chose to use to tell us something...and to mention Rahab once again, you will see her in Matthew 1 in the lineage of Jesus!

I just want to remind you that we are all sinners, we all come short of the glory of God, all our righteousness is as filthy rags. Please, please, love the sinner and hate not the sinner, but the sin!

Lester Roloff was a preacher that had rehabs and childrens homes. I like what he used to say, "Don't give up on them until they have been dead for three days!"

 

[Marcylene]

*ahem* Please pardon!

PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA December 15, 1791 - A bill of rights to the Federal Constitution was officially entered into law today by an act of the United States Congress. Among other guarantees, these 10 amendments to the constitution ensure citizens of the United States freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion and freedom of assembly. They protect Americans from "unreasonable searches and seizures," guarantee criminals the right to "a speedy" trial, and from "cruel and unusual punishments." ...from PBS Liberty

Religious freedom was one of the factors for years of war. And I must say, I am thrilled there were Godly men at papa Paine's bedside that cared about his soul.

When Paul was told to go and preach the gospel to the Gentiles...it made it to America!

A Mighty Fortress is our God...

 

[Dark Virtue]

Freedom of Religion is precisely what I am talking about.

How can one have freedom when someone else imposes on those freedoms?

 

[Kidan]

Because we are not gauranteed freedom from religion, nor does it even say freedom of religion.

The actuall amendment reads:

Quote[/b] ]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

So, accordingly, Congress cannot pass laws that deal with religion (either for or against one). Yet State and local governments can all they want. Provided their (the states) Consititutions/laws allow it.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Does that mean it is morally acceptable to impose your beliefs on others?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Kidan @ Oct. 21 2004,11:19)]So, accordingly, Congress cannot pass laws that deal with religion (either for or against one). Yet State and local governments can all they want. Provided their (the states) Consititutions/laws allow it.

From the link I just posted:

Quote[/b] ]The First Amendment deals with "Congress." Can't states make their own religious policies?

Under the "due process" clause of the 14th Amendment (ratified in 1868), the entire Bill of Rights applies to the states. No governor, mayor, sheriff, public school employee, or other public official may violate the human rights embodied in the Constitution. The government at all levels must respect the separation of church and state. Most state constitutions, in fact, contain language that is even stricter than the First Amendment, prohibiting the state from setting up a ministry, using tax dollars to promote religion, or interfering with freedom of conscience.