The Death Penalty
- Thread starter Mr.Bill
- Start date
G
Guest
Guest
I'm for the death penalty. But I think it should include rapists, and child molesters. When u kill a person they die they don't have to relive the situation. But people that have been sexually abused, have it played back in their dreams over and over again. Till they feel like jumping off a building. That ain't cool.
Plus to much tax money spent on prisons.
Plus to much tax money spent on prisons.
You can't pick and choose what kind of people you want to be killed..that's just impossible. It would have far too many loopholes, both political and ethical. I personally am against the death penalty. I don't think anyone should be able to choose whether someone lives or dies, regardless of the person's crime. Yeah we pay taxes to keep them locked up, but how much is a life worth?[b said:Quote[/b] (JoBlow @ July 13 2004,12:56)]I'm for the death penalty. But I think it should include rapists, and child molesters. When u kill a person they die they don't have to relive the situation. But people that have been sexually abused, have it played back in their dreams over and over again. Till they feel like jumping off a building. That ain't cool.
Plus to much tax money spent on prisons.
Kidan
Moderator
I'm for the death penalty.
Remember, it's not a single person deciding, rather it's the state. Judeo-Christian theology fully supports the state demanding the death of an individual in payment for crimes committed. Likewise, it's the responsibility of the state to ensure that these crimes are punished.
Remember, it's not a single person deciding, rather it's the state. Judeo-Christian theology fully supports the state demanding the death of an individual in payment for crimes committed. Likewise, it's the responsibility of the state to ensure that these crimes are punished.
Avesther
New Member
Finally something I don't agree with Kidan on.
The death penalty I am against is the death penalty man places on breaking mans laws.
Here is the basis of my position:
(1)I believe that God has soveriegnty over life and death.
(2)Murder is murder, even if under the guise of punishment for a crime. To kill somebody is to step on Gods soveriegnty.
(3)God demanded the death penalty from breaking Gods law, not mans laws. Only God or Gods oppointed person(s) can carry out the death penalty.
(4)God specifically stated who was to perform the act of carrying out the death penalty and all the rituals they had to go through before doing so. It was never a matter of simply stoning a person.
I am for God doling out the death penalty.
For Mans rebellion in the garden we have all been sentanced to death. Except for the last generation who will not taste death.
For breaking Gods law (the Ten commandments) we also come under the full force and effect of it. Breaking the least of the law (ie...theft) is breaking the full law (ie..murder) and the full effect (the death penalty for murder) is upon our heads. But, for this, Jesus came and died on the cross and asked is father to forgive us, for we didn't know what we were doing. (I could really go off topic here and start in on the cities of refuge).
Anyway, I don't believe in enacting the death penalty for breaking mans law. Even if mans law mimics Gods law. God created the commandment, "Thou shall not murder." because God is soveriegn over life. Man did not create the similiar law, "Thou shall not murder" for the same reason. Also, Gods law does not change, nor does God change. You shall not murder 4,000 years ago, today and tomorrow. And the wages for doing so is death, death and death. Mans laws are open to interpretation. Today its murder, tomorrow its state sanctified abortion. Because man is liberal in his laws and liberal in their interpretation, man can not enforce capital punishment on breaking it, especially if that punishment encrouches on Gods soveriegnty.
The death penalty I am against is the death penalty man places on breaking mans laws.
Here is the basis of my position:
(1)I believe that God has soveriegnty over life and death.
(2)Murder is murder, even if under the guise of punishment for a crime. To kill somebody is to step on Gods soveriegnty.
(3)God demanded the death penalty from breaking Gods law, not mans laws. Only God or Gods oppointed person(s) can carry out the death penalty.
(4)God specifically stated who was to perform the act of carrying out the death penalty and all the rituals they had to go through before doing so. It was never a matter of simply stoning a person.
I am for God doling out the death penalty.
For Mans rebellion in the garden we have all been sentanced to death. Except for the last generation who will not taste death.
For breaking Gods law (the Ten commandments) we also come under the full force and effect of it. Breaking the least of the law (ie...theft) is breaking the full law (ie..murder) and the full effect (the death penalty for murder) is upon our heads. But, for this, Jesus came and died on the cross and asked is father to forgive us, for we didn't know what we were doing. (I could really go off topic here and start in on the cities of refuge).
Anyway, I don't believe in enacting the death penalty for breaking mans law. Even if mans law mimics Gods law. God created the commandment, "Thou shall not murder." because God is soveriegn over life. Man did not create the similiar law, "Thou shall not murder" for the same reason. Also, Gods law does not change, nor does God change. You shall not murder 4,000 years ago, today and tomorrow. And the wages for doing so is death, death and death. Mans laws are open to interpretation. Today its murder, tomorrow its state sanctified abortion. Because man is liberal in his laws and liberal in their interpretation, man can not enforce capital punishment on breaking it, especially if that punishment encrouches on Gods soveriegnty.
Jango
New Member
No, no it's not.[b said:
"
1
There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace. -Ecc 3:1-8"
God gives authority to the government of each nation to deal out what justice they may. I am for the death sentance, but only for murderers. Rape victims can recover, no matter how hard it may be.
I know it's not a single person presiding, but that is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that people are deciding whether other people should 'have the right to live,' a jurisdiction that I believe only God should have. The state does not own our lives. It cannot be allowed to take them away.[b said:
Avesther
New Member
yes, there is a time to do everything. And in times of war and when enacting the death penalty, those people had to be and remain cerimonially clean. Because when they weren't, God was harsh with them. Take a look at Achan, who began to covet material things while burning Jericho. Look at the prostitute who was brought to Jesus. The law was that she was to be stoned, the pharisees questioned Jesus on it. Their hearts were not clean for if they were, they would have brought both the man and women for the law states that both must be stoned, not just one or the other. And the pharisees were not there to punish the sin, they were there to test Jesus, and in doing so, sinned themselves.
Kidan
Moderator
Paul writes that Governments have the moral authority and obligation to punish against capital crimes (Romans 13:1-4)<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">13:1
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
13:2
Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
13:3
For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
13:4
for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
[/QUOTE]
As well, Jesus endorsed the capital crimes and what not that God handed down (Mk 7:8-13)
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">7:8
"Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."
7:9
He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
7:10
"For Moses said, `HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, `HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE F107 PUT TO DEATH';
7:11
but you say, `If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
7:12
you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
7:13
thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."
[/QUOTE]
GP - those cleanliness things are relegated to the Jews. The death penalty is ordained within the Noahiac Covenant, which does not have the cleanliness requirements within it. but onto the point about the adultress, that wasn't a test against crime. rather that was those leaders being irresponsible. If they were truly interested in having the sinner punished, then they would have brought both the man and the woman as the Law required. Jesus' forgiveness was a divine pardon of her sins, rather than an explicit denounciation of of capital crimes. Jesus did this in the same way that God forgave David and others for adultery without overturning the Capital status of their crimes.
As well, remember that most capital punishments from the Law were carried out as stoning. This was done because it was society that was slaying the person, and the entire community participated after judgement was passed.
but let's really think about the usual arguements against the death penalty, and a quick rebuttal of them.
1) Commandment 6. Thou Shall Not Kill. Actually it translates murder, and there is a difference between murder and state-sponsered retribution.
2)Pro-Life consistency. Basically they say, that because the state is allowed to kill, it tells the murders and abortionists that it's allright to kill as well. The error with this thinking is that does enforcing a fine cause people to think it's ok to steal. Or does prison time tell people it's ok to lock their kids in closests. No! It's a punishment! Judgement, handed down by the state, and the government is " a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil"
3) Capital Punishment isn't a deterrent There have been no studies that says it's not a deterrent. Nor have there been studies that say it is a deterrent. Biblically, God tells us that all the punishements He listed for crimes are deterrents, but also tells us if there's to long of a wait between the crime and the punishment it no longer remains a deterrent. Regardless though, Capital Punishment isn't about deterrence. Rather it's about punishment, and exacting the punishment that God ordained through the Noahiac Covenant.
4) Forgiveness and Vengenance The Bible tells us in the NT not to take vengenance on people. It tells us this in the OT as well, right there with all those other crimes demanding death. Besides, you must also remember that the STATE cannot take vengenance on someone. It's impossible for the STATE to take revenge, and when someone is punished for a crime, that punishment comes from the STATE not the victim or the victim's family.
Just as a side note, I'm only detailing the Christian Theological reasons for the death penalty (and likewise only addressing those reasons that are affected by Christian doctrime, if you wish to discuss other reasons, bring them up). Not the quite sound sociological reasons for it.
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
13:2
Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
13:3
For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
13:4
for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
[/QUOTE]
As well, Jesus endorsed the capital crimes and what not that God handed down (Mk 7:8-13)
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">7:8
"Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."
7:9
He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
7:10
"For Moses said, `HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, `HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE F107 PUT TO DEATH';
7:11
but you say, `If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
7:12
you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
7:13
thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."
[/QUOTE]
GP - those cleanliness things are relegated to the Jews. The death penalty is ordained within the Noahiac Covenant, which does not have the cleanliness requirements within it. but onto the point about the adultress, that wasn't a test against crime. rather that was those leaders being irresponsible. If they were truly interested in having the sinner punished, then they would have brought both the man and the woman as the Law required. Jesus' forgiveness was a divine pardon of her sins, rather than an explicit denounciation of of capital crimes. Jesus did this in the same way that God forgave David and others for adultery without overturning the Capital status of their crimes.
As well, remember that most capital punishments from the Law were carried out as stoning. This was done because it was society that was slaying the person, and the entire community participated after judgement was passed.
but let's really think about the usual arguements against the death penalty, and a quick rebuttal of them.
1) Commandment 6. Thou Shall Not Kill. Actually it translates murder, and there is a difference between murder and state-sponsered retribution.
2)Pro-Life consistency. Basically they say, that because the state is allowed to kill, it tells the murders and abortionists that it's allright to kill as well. The error with this thinking is that does enforcing a fine cause people to think it's ok to steal. Or does prison time tell people it's ok to lock their kids in closests. No! It's a punishment! Judgement, handed down by the state, and the government is " a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil"
3) Capital Punishment isn't a deterrent There have been no studies that says it's not a deterrent. Nor have there been studies that say it is a deterrent. Biblically, God tells us that all the punishements He listed for crimes are deterrents, but also tells us if there's to long of a wait between the crime and the punishment it no longer remains a deterrent. Regardless though, Capital Punishment isn't about deterrence. Rather it's about punishment, and exacting the punishment that God ordained through the Noahiac Covenant.
4) Forgiveness and Vengenance The Bible tells us in the NT not to take vengenance on people. It tells us this in the OT as well, right there with all those other crimes demanding death. Besides, you must also remember that the STATE cannot take vengenance on someone. It's impossible for the STATE to take revenge, and when someone is punished for a crime, that punishment comes from the STATE not the victim or the victim's family.
Just as a side note, I'm only detailing the Christian Theological reasons for the death penalty (and likewise only addressing those reasons that are affected by Christian doctrime, if you wish to discuss other reasons, bring them up). Not the quite sound sociological reasons for it.
Avesther
New Member
Going back to the Noahiac covenant, Go said that from each man he will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man, "Whoever sheeds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed."
My understanding is that God hasn't made any exemptions for the hangman, so to speak. Even the hangman will be called to account for the lifes of his fellow man. In otherwords, wether its murder or capital punishment, you will be called to stand before God to give account for it.
I think it gets tricky as it is easy at this point to fall into the trap of circular reasoning.
My understanding is that God hasn't made any exemptions for the hangman, so to speak. Even the hangman will be called to account for the lifes of his fellow man. In otherwords, wether its murder or capital punishment, you will be called to stand before God to give account for it.
I think it gets tricky as it is easy at this point to fall into the trap of circular reasoning.
G
Guest
Guest
[b said:
Is that any countries government.
Kidan
Moderator
gp- that's why in the Mosiac Covenant, God specified that the STATE should pass judgement and enact the punishment rather than a single man.
But at the same time, to say that those who carries out the punishment God has supplied, will face the same punishment is saying that God is not a just God. Remember, denying Capital Punishment as a just and lawful punishment, is in effect you changing the nature of God, and what God deems as just and lawful.
jo -yes
But at the same time, to say that those who carries out the punishment God has supplied, will face the same punishment is saying that God is not a just God. Remember, denying Capital Punishment as a just and lawful punishment, is in effect you changing the nature of God, and what God deems as just and lawful.
jo -yes
Avesther
New Member
I believe that is why in the Mosaic covenant that God also commanded ritually clean people pass the judgement and perform the judgement as well. To ensure that they were not going to fall under the same or as in the case of the foolish pharisees, a different judgement themselves by performing it.
I can see your point Kidan, I think I can begin to accept passing capital punishment for breaking mans laws as well.
I can see your point Kidan, I think I can begin to accept passing capital punishment for breaking mans laws as well.
Kidan
Moderator
I sometimes wonder why I participate in these discussions. I usually end up feeling like I'm being contrary just for the sake of it, even though I've studied the topics extensively and have a firm grasp on my pov. <span id='ME'><center>Kidan sighs</center></span>
Avesther
New Member
Probably not. Nonetheless, you oviously have a firm grasp on your pov. This is not a subject I've spent alot of time studying. I always saw that there was a distinction between mans law and Gods law. Mans law include things like don't steal and don't murder. It can also include things like abortion is some cases is not murder or, here in Canada, that certain passages in the bible are considered hate speach. It is fluid and full of what I feel like today interpretation.
Where as with Gods law, it was always the same, never changing, not open to interpretation as the one who interprets it and judges you based on it is also unchanging.
My issue has been, how can man claim capital punishment appropriate consequences for a law that is never the same?
You put things into a different context for me (I am trying to denote a learning being done on my part here) that changes how to interpret or deal my issue. You have caused me to ask, is there more that I should look at.
I have an answer for your question:
When I requested this forum to be created two years ago, It was not with the purpose of argueing I'm right your wrong get over it. I told Jon (Jammer7) that I thought it would be great to have a dedicated forum where Christians can bring up topics and learn from each other. I suppose it took two years for that to finally happen, but it did eventually happen. I've found just cause to go and ask questions of my own and learn more.
Where as with Gods law, it was always the same, never changing, not open to interpretation as the one who interprets it and judges you based on it is also unchanging.
My issue has been, how can man claim capital punishment appropriate consequences for a law that is never the same?
You put things into a different context for me (I am trying to denote a learning being done on my part here) that changes how to interpret or deal my issue. You have caused me to ask, is there more that I should look at.
I have an answer for your question:
[b said:
When I requested this forum to be created two years ago, It was not with the purpose of argueing I'm right your wrong get over it. I told Jon (Jammer7) that I thought it would be great to have a dedicated forum where Christians can bring up topics and learn from each other. I suppose it took two years for that to finally happen, but it did eventually happen. I've found just cause to go and ask questions of my own and learn more.
Kidan
Moderator
GP - I see and understand why I participate. By my very nature, I share knowledge when I have it, and do enjoy explaining my position, and my views on theology and doctrine. Rather it's just so often, I'm diametrically opposed to those I'm discussing these things with on these topics, that I sometimes wonder if I'm taking an opposing viewpoint just because.
Mr. Bill - then they get to the after life a little faster is all.
Mr. Bill - then they get to the after life a little faster is all.
Well gee, that would rather suck. Pardon me but, it's not your place to decide when they go onto the afterlife...especially if the person is innocent. Furthermore, what if the person happens to not believe in an afterlife? And what if he's right? That would rather suck, wouldn't it?[b said:
Kidan
Moderator
which is why we strive so hard to ensure that someone is guilty before we execute them.
Yes it would suck. It is a horrid thing we an innocent man is punished. Yet it happens. And the truth is, we're getting better and better and determining those who do deserve the punishment are those recieving it, and not just for death penalty cases either, but for prison time and all the other fines and penalties for crimes.
As for your afterlife arguement, that's an entirely different topic. Relating more to Atheism/Christianity than pro/con captial punishment.
Yes it would suck. It is a horrid thing we an innocent man is punished. Yet it happens. And the truth is, we're getting better and better and determining those who do deserve the punishment are those recieving it, and not just for death penalty cases either, but for prison time and all the other fines and penalties for crimes.
As for your afterlife arguement, that's an entirely different topic. Relating more to Atheism/Christianity than pro/con captial punishment.