The Bible

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]Dark Virtue,

Please understand that because you can make valid arguments and others cannot doesn't make your views right.  I'm a huge Jeep fan, and I can tell you just about everything there is to know about them, but that doesn't necessarily make Jeep the greatest or best vehicle.  It just makes me knowledgeable of them, and that is all.

I do not have the understanding of the Bible that you and others have, but I can tell you I have a great love for whom I believe to be its Inspirer, and a great appreciation for the book itself.  Any arguments that I may have, and from those like me, should not be written off as "stupid."  Me having an interest and belief in the Bible and the ultimate writer of it in itself should earn the slightest bit of support that it may be true.  I might be wrong, but because of this belief I have surely there can be the smallest amount of respect for it, just as I respect you and your beliefs.

I think you may have misinterpreted my statement.  I wasn't referring to "here" as the board, I was referring "here" as the problem before me.  A good example of this is the concept of heaven and hell.  Ask 10 different Christians what they're view of Heaven and Hell are and you will get 10 wildly different answers, yet they all consider themselves Christian and right above all other Christians.  It's confusing to say the least.  That makes it difficult to argue a certain point when you know the other side isn't even agreement on the issue.

Quote[/b] ]Also, you don't have to physically see something to believe in it.

Understoond.  Let's use the Eiffel Tower as an example.  I've never seen it, never even been to Paris.  But yes, I believe it exists.  Why?  Other people have seen it, touched it, smelled it, experienced it.  I know the concepts behind the mathematics, engineering and the applications used behind the construction of the Tower.  I have studied its construction, its builder and have seen photos of it.  So yes, I believe that it truly exists.  I can not say the same about the Bible or God.  Can you?

Quote[/b] ]Faith is not something that is unreasonable or irrational.  You have faith that when you turn the key to your car the engine will start - it's just a confidence that you have; and that's what faith is.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  Heb. 11:1 (KJV).

This is considered the classical definition of Faith, both the substance of things hoped for and the evidence that things exist that are not yet perceived with the senses. It is my understanding that the Greek word translated "substance" in Hebrews 11:1 is hupostasis, literally, "that which stands under." The derived meaning is "that which has real existence, the basic essence, the actual reality, the substance of something".  The evidence of this cannot be found in the physical world.  Thus, it cannot be proven logically.  Does that make sense?

 

[Bowser]

Quote[/b] ]Also, you don't have to physically see something to believe in it.

Quote[/b] ]Understoond.  Let's use the Eiffel Tower as an example.  I've never seen it, never even been to Paris.  But yes, I believe it exists.  Why?  Other people have seen it, touched it, smelled it, experienced it.  I know the concepts behind the mathematics, engineering and the applications used behind the construction of the Tower.  I have studied its construction, its builder and have seen photos of it.  So yes, I believe that it truly exists.  I can not say the same about the Bible or God.  Can you?

Um... yes.

John knew Jesus personally, and baptized people in God's name.  Elijah saw an awesome fire from God on a mountainside.  Mary was healed by Jesus.  Moses talked to God through a burning bush.  This world was obviously designed by someone, a Creator.  Peter, James, and John witnessed the Transfiguration.

Now, I haven't met these people or witnessed these examples personally, but neither have you met the designer or have seen the building of the Eiffel Tower

Quote[/b] ]Faith is not something that is unreasonable or irrational.  You have faith that when you turn the key to your car the engine will start - it's just a confidence that you have; and that's what faith is.

Quote[/b] ]Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  Heb. 11:1 (KJV).

This is considered the classical definition of Faith, both the substance of things hoped for and the evidence that things exist that are not yet perceived with the senses. It is my understanding that the Greek word translated "substance" in Hebrews 11:1 is hupostasis, literally, "that which stands under." The derived meaning is "that which has real existence, the basic essence, the actual reality, the substance of something".  The evidence of this cannot be found in the physical world.  Thus, it cannot be proven logically.  Does that make sense?

I'm sorry, you've honestly lost me lol

I sincerely believe we have a God, and to me the proof of his existence is everywhere.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]Um... yes.

John knew Jesus personally, and baptized people in God's name.  Elijah saw an awesome fire from God on a mountainside.  Mary was healed by Jesus.  Moses talked to God through a burning bush.  This world was obviously designed by someone, a Creator.  Peter, James, and John witnessed the Transfiguration.

Now, I haven't met these people or witnessed these examples personally, but neither have you met the designer or have seen the building of the Eiffel Tower

Hearsay.  Sorry, but that is what it amounts to.  If I had the inclination (and the money) I could travel to Paris and see the Eiffel Tower for myself.  Nothing I can physically do can show me evidence of God.  I have far too many doubts in the Bible to believe it is an inerrant work of divinity, not the least of which is its authorship.

Quote[/b] ]I sincerely believe we have a God, and to me the proof of his existence is everywhere.

I sincerely believe we don't, the proof of His existence is lacking, sorely.

Or, maybe, I am just too blind to see.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

hmmmm.. dv, i would like to talk about u about the WRONGS u found in the bible. some things are unlikely 2 b known and some r 2 b taken symbolically. if i were u and u ACTUALLY wanted faith i wouldn't just sit and wait there for god to say, here u go. here is ur first course of faith. tomorrow u will have a grilled um... bible... yes... lol

i would try to take action. i know people like u so i understand. i have a friend at school who reads bible in his spare time and tells me what's wrong with it *it's sexist* *it contradicts itself* [IT DOES NOT!!!] *and so forth* i am NOT dissing ppl like him or who are uh wats theword... suspicious... no SKEPTICAL that's it. about the bible. i'm cool with god and i am really imspired by god. ISIAH 40:31 READ IT u GOTTA THATS THE SECRET!!! *presonally i think that's the most important verse in the bible. not THE but one of THE THESE -hope u knowwhat i mean

lol-

 

[Bowser]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Sep. 12 2004,9:53)]

Quote[/b] ]Um... yes.

John knew Jesus personally, and baptized people in God's name.  Elijah saw an awesome fire from God on a mountainside.  Mary was healed by Jesus.  Moses talked to God through a burning bush.  This world was obviously designed by someone, a Creator.  Peter, James, and John witnessed the Transfiguration.

Now, I haven't met these people or witnessed these examples personally, but neither have you met the designer or have seen the building of the Eiffel Tower

Hearsay.  Sorry, but that is what it amounts to.  If I had the inclination (and the money) I could travel to Paris and see the Eiffel Tower for myself.  Nothing I can physically do can show me evidence of God.  I have far too many doubts in the Bible to believe it is an inerrant work of divinity, not the least of which is its authorship.

And if the tower didn't exist anymore? Say it was destroyed and you couldn't see it. You had no "proof" that it was even built, other than some documents written by a stranger that said it did. Would you still believe then?

 

[Bowser]

Quote[/b] ]I sincerely believe we have a God, and to me the proof of his existence is everywhere.

Quote[/b] ]I sincerely believe we don't

Ok...what's your point?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Bowser @ Sep. 12 2004,10:30)]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Sep. 12 2004,9:53)]

Quote[/b] (Bowser @ Sep. 12 2004,8:58)]

Quote[/b] ]Um... yes.

John knew Jesus personally, and baptized people in God's name.  Elijah saw an awesome fire from God on a mountainside.  Mary was healed by Jesus.  Moses talked to God through a burning bush.  This world was obviously designed by someone, a Creator.  Peter, James, and John witnessed the Transfiguration.

Now, I haven't met these people or witnessed these examples personally, but neither have you met the designer or have seen the building of the Eiffel Tower

Hearsay.  Sorry, but that is what it amounts to.  If I had the inclination (and the money) I could travel to Paris and see the Eiffel Tower for myself.  Nothing I can physically do can show me evidence of God.  I have far too many doubts in the Bible to believe it is an inerrant work of divinity, not the least of which is its authorship.

And if the tower didn't exist anymore?  Say it was destroyed and you couldn't see it.  You had no "proof" that it was even built, other than some documents written by a stranger that said it did.  Would you still believe then?

If there was no PROOF then how could I honestly say I believed it existed?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Bowser @ Sep. 12 2004,10:32)]

Quote[/b] ]I sincerely believe we have a God, and to me the proof of his existence is everywhere.

Quote[/b] ]I sincerely believe we don't

Ok...what's your point?

No point other than to say we are two sides of the same coin.

 

[Bowser]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Sep. 12 2004,10:53)]If there was no PROOF then how could I honestly say I believed it existed?

Simply because you believed it at one time.  You've studied it, read about the people involved with it, etc.  Same with I and the bible.  I understand we don't agree with this issue, but it doesn't make what I have to say any less relevant.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Hmm, I think you mistook what I wrote, I wasn't putting you down in any way, I apologize if you thought that.

Yes, I believed in the Bible and Christianity at one time.

Did you believe in Santa once?

 

[Bowser]

Sure.

A friend of mine also believed in atheism at one time, and is now a Christian.

This argument, like many of the other things you've brought up, goes either way.  I've appreciated your topics, but it seems like they flip-flop from time to time.

And no, I haven't been offended by anything you've said.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Good.

And if my arguments seem to flip-flop, it's because sometimes I have to argue from a Christian perspective, so that may be why.

 

[Bowser]

... I feel like we're going in circles...lol

Oh wait, we are.

 

[Dark Virtue]

LOL

So what caused your athiest friend to go Christian? And what brand of Christian is he/she?

 

[Watcher]

Hmmm...the application isn't liking my novel I'm trying to post.

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]Actually, being rational requires being consistent with or based on reason, in other words, logical. I try to keep my arguments just that, rational: based on reason and logic.

Agreed. In using rationality as an adjective in the context I was using it in, it means having reason or understanding. The entire point of the statement was to illustrate your need for more understanding in what the Bible teaches.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, sometimes I am overly harsh and slanted in my opinions and I have no one else to blame for that. However, just because I question scriptures doesn’t mean I do so blindly and without logic. If my reasoning is truly irrational or illogical, then by all means call me on it.

The fact that you question the ability of an all powerful God proves the point. How does logic explain the existence of the Christian Church today. How does logic explain the differences in the Disciples of the Gospels verses the Disciples of Acts. How does logic explain the willing sacrifice each of them made for Christianity, an apparent fallacy? How does logic explain the numerous secular references that confirm the claims of the Bible. How does logic explain the internal witness, continuity, and structure of a book written over the course of 1600 years with over 40 different authors from different walks of life. How does logic explain Paul’s letters to contemporaries of Jesus affirming the resurrection as truth. How does logic explain the secular references to Jesus at all? Furthermore, how does logic explain the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus? How does logic explain the Bible confirming 20th century archaeological findings that were once scoffed at as fairytales from the Bible. I could go on and on. In the end, this logical approach seems illogical to me.

The reality is you’ll find plenty of ‘evidence’ that argues the point both ways. You and I could sit here and argue in circles all day about the body of evidence or lack thereof. This is why it all, ultimately, comes down to faith. Now for me, it’s so conclusive and obvious, I could never ‘turn’ my back from the truth or turn away from what I believe. Jesus Christ is that real in my life and I have those personal experiences on top of my own reason and logic to confirm what I believe. So once again, we’re at an impasse. However, I would relish a discussion on the historicity of the Bible and an opportunity to discuss apologetics. I truly enjoy it very much and feel called especially in that area of the ministry.

Quote[/b] ]I am not classically trained in the interpretation of scripture, as you seem to be since you mentioned seminary. I am open to any criticism here. If my methodology is incorrect, point me in the right direction. As I have stated before, I do tend to taint my arguments based on my experiences and beliefs. However, the same can be said for the majority of people here. I understand that since I hold dissenting beliefs that you will hold me to a higher standard and that is understandable. I will do my best to keep my critiques balanced.

The great news is we don’t need a degree in Theology to understand the truths contained in Scripture. Theology in a broad sense can be broken down as the Study or Doctrine of God. Alternatively, Theology is also used to define the study of all doctrines that pertain to the Holy Scriptures. And here’s another truth, we’re all called to be theologians, whether that’s a layman or professional, it’s up to God’s calling in your life. However, as a Christian, we’re all called to be disciples and students of His word. You have a desire to answer questions, but you’ve also closed the Lord out of certain areas of your life and in your heart. There are some things that you just aren’t willing to get rid of in your life, therefore, He will not reveal Himself in the way that you seek. Hence my admonition to you to humble yourself before Him and understand you can have an audience with the Creator and Master of the Universe. Jesus has given you that audience. It truly is impossible for our human intellect to grasp the awesome splendor and character of God. We have to rely on anthropomorphic illustrations, thank the Lord that He gave us those, just to comprehend His ways.

Quote[/b] ]So what exactly IS relevant to studying the word of God?

A teachable spirit.

Quote[/b] ]I daresay that I am just as adept and have as much understanding as your typical churchgoer. However great my ineptitude, I am always working towards a greater understanding.

I disagree. What your typical church going Christian has that you do not, is the Holy Spirit. We have God living inside of us bearing witness to Himself and to His word. That, my friend, you will never have until you accept Him as Lord and Savior of your life.

There is understanding and wisdom imparted to you upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. My prayer for you is that as you continue on your quest for understanding that you’re able to cast aside your pride and humble yourself before the almighty God of the Universe and give Him the true respect and worship that He deserves. I encourage you to diligently seek Him

Quote[/b] ]And we were created to glorify Him too, correct? That is the reason we were created?

Yes, and yes. And through Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection He is glorified. In other words, Jesus succeeded where Adam did not. You and I can now enjoy eternal fellowship with God, which is why we were created. In anticipation of your reply to this, I’ll again mention freewill and probation was necessary.

Quote[/b] ]Maybe we are using the word “perfect” in different degrees. If Satan was created perfectly why would he choose to side against God? Would it be correct to assume that if God is omniscient, that He created Satan knowing full well that he would fall?

Of course God knew He would rebel, and at the same time, God knew man as a race would be redeemed. The entire Old Testament points to Jesus. However, as I have mentioned, Satan was created perfect in all His ways until inquity was found in him. Being created perfect has nothing to do with Freewill and the fact that Satan chose contrary to his inclination towards God. Satan was created perfect with the freewill to choose. In the end, he chose to sin.


Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the saphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou has walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou was created, TILL INQUITY was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:13-15).



“How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. (Is. 14:12-15)

Quote[/b] ]Again, I just want to see if I have this right. God created Satan knowing that he would rise against Him as well as the fate of 1/3 of the angels He created. No, we don’t know the reason He did so, but suffice it to say that He knew there would be a rebellion before He created Satan, correct? The point I’ve tried to bring up is that there could have been another way to do this. God could have made His creation without pain and suffering, without Satan, without evil. However, as you say, God is sovereign and His way is the way it was done, end of story. But you and I, in our limited understand, can conceive of ways and means to create a universe without pain. So somehow, somewhere, there must be a good reason for all this evil, right?

Sure, God could have created legions of unfeeling, programmed robots. However, because He is sovereign, He chose to create beings with the freewill to choose to love and obey Him. In order to truly choose obedience,  probation and the possibility to rebel must be a real option.

Quote[/b] ]Easier said than done, otherwise we wouldn’t be here. And my options seem to be limited considering my apostasy.

I know it’s not easy. I was where you were some years ago. I was raised in the church and as I became older, I questioned everything. I felt indoctrinated and wanted to understand things for myself. I turned my back on God for 10 years and all I can say is that He was patient and merciful. I wasn’t saved, and had I died during those 10 years, I’d have spent an eternity in hell. God is all-merciful, slow to anger, and patient. I’m a living testimony to that.

Now as far as options being limited considering your apostasy, I’m a little unclear as to what you are implying. Your options aren’t limited by anyone except yourself. You can make a decision right now for Jesus and know that you are saved, period. Your options are the same as everyone else and please don’t let anyone tell you differently. Here’s the bottom line, you haven’t committed what’s commonly referred to the “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.” One has to truly be saved and ‘know’ the truth, and in the same spirit of Lucifer choose to rebel against God and turn their back on Him willingly.

You may have been raised in the church and even said a prayer when you were young like I did. The truth is, the prayer isn’t what saves you. One can have both an intellectual and emotional experience and still not be saved. Without a change in will, there’s no salvation.

It doesn’t matter if you said a prayer and had the ‘liver shudders’ to go with it. Again, that isn’t what saves you. If your life does not ‘change’ and you are not a new creation in Christ, the reality is, there was no true salvation experience.

So just in case you think you were once saved and now have turned your back on Him and have no options because you committed the unforgivable sin, think again.

You still have a chance, it’s not too late. We may step out into eternity tomorrow, which is why the Bible says today is the day of Salvation!

Quote[/b] ]You have to understand why this is difficult in terms of logic and reason. The Bible is holy because it says so. There’s not much to back that up other than having faith in the Book from the get go. And Faith is in direct opposition to logic and reason. If I’m missing something here, please point out where I’m wrong.

Faith is not in opposition to logic and reason. Faith establishes the principles from which we reason logically. St. Augustine said, "The validity of logical sequences is not a thing devised by men, but is observed and noted by them. It exists eternally in the reason of things, and has its origin with God.

God is a God of logical absolutes, therefore, logic and reason is applicable to the truths of Scripture. Logic and reason as applied to Scripture are what brought me to saving faith.

Quote[/b] ]Pride may be one reason, but it is by far the only one. Some people just don’t have the Faith to work with. I don’t think it’s a matter of pride to request a logical, reasonable piece of evidence that is incontrovertible.

The evidence is all around you. He’s also placed an internal witness inside of every human being. You see, we were created specifically to be in fellowship with Him. And until that fellowship is again realized, there is always that ‘something’ missing in life. You hear people say it all the time. And seemingly, they have everything they could ever possibly want in this world. Yet there is still emptiness, a void that needs to be filled, and only one person can fill it…

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]What I got out of Job is that God, although being omniscient and knowing what was truly in Job’s heart and how he would react in ANY situation, still chose to take a bet with Satan and put Jobd through needless misery. The only one that benefited was Satan.

Let’s look at some of the awesome lessons contained in Job:

“Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.” (Job 13:15)d

I see a picture of ultimate trust and what it truly means to suffer. Clearly, Job illustrates that righteous people can, do, and will suffer. All the while, Job refused to curse God or blame Him for his troubles. His friends could find no answer for his suffering yet they condemned him. Elihu believed that Job had sinned and presumed he was speaking for God. Ultimately, Elihu was just as clueless as the other three.

After Elihu finished speaking to Job, God spoke. God didn’t tell Job that He allowed Satan to afflict him. He rather challenged Job with His great wisdom. Clearly, God’s wisdom was much greater than Job and his friends combined. Clearly they were unable to answer questions about how God does things in His creation so how could they truly understand human suffering.

When Job heard God speak, he knew immediately he had no right to question God. He immediately repented of having questioned God in any way. God went on to chastise Job’s friends and told them to ask Job to pray for them.

The Lord then blessed Job again. He gave Job twice as many possessions, and another family of seven sons and three daughters. Job went on to live another 140 years after this.

We learn the following:

1. God is Creator of all things and his wisdom is far above anything that we can ever understand. Because He is sovereign, He has no obligation to explain His actions to man.

2. We see that if one truly has faith in God, he will remain faithful no matter what. We may not understand what is happening or why, but we trust God because he loves us and knows what’s best for us.

3. We see that innocent people suffer in this life as well as the wicked. Natural disasters affect everybody. These things happen to all that live on the earth and it doesn’t mean that a person is good or bad, rather that they are human.

4. We see that Satan does not have unlimited power over us. God is stronger and He will not allow Satan to cause us to do something we don’t want to do. God will not allow Satan to take away our power to choose. That power to choose right and wrong lies with us.

5. We learn that Satan will use others to discourage us. We must keep our eyes on God at all times and put Him first, even before our friends and relatives.

6. We need to have patience. We must learn to endure hardships in life and always remember that in the end, God’s people will triumph.

7. Finally, we learn that life on earth is very brief and filled with many troubles.

Source: Truth for the World’s Old Testament Survey

Quote[/b] ]What is so ridiculous? God created everything with a purpose, did He not? Satan was created with a purpose too. If I am incorrect, then I would appreciate your take on why Satan was created by God. God meant and expected Man to be deceived and to Fall. Granted, the Bible doesn’t come out and say implicitly that Satan was the serpent, but I’m following an assumption that they are one and the same. God knew man would be tempted and since God did not stop it, then it seems to me that God expected it to happen. That being said, someone needed to tempt Eve, that being was Satan. God knew Satan would rebel and fall, thus leading to the temptation of Eve. And that starts the whole ball of wax going. What is wrong with that assertation?

These are some wild accusations that are untrue. Satan’s purpose was to lead worship in heaven. He is also believed to have held the rank of archangel along with Michael and Gabriel.  God created the perfectly righteous Lucifer by His choice and Lucifer created the absolutely wicked Satan by his choice. Make sense?

Quote[/b] ]
I would understand them better if every Christian held to the same truths as you do, but there are different opinions on Freewill, Probation and just about every ideal that Christians hold dear. If Christianity can’t come to a single conclusion how are non-theists supposed to understand the different stances that are taken? If I missed a post in a different thread, by all means point me to them. And again, when you speak of “Truths” remember that not all Christians hold to the same truths. Are you, in turn, saying that your chosen path of Christianity is more correct than the others? If so, state the denomination and I will do my best to point out arguments from that perspective. It is truly difficult to pose a question knowing the other side already has differing opinions on their stances.

There may be different opinions, but there is one truth. Whether others call themselves Christians and claim to know the true teachings of Scripture is suspect. There are many false doctrines out there under a “Christian banner.” Just because it looks and smells like a donut, doesn’t mean it is one. My point is this, the Bible explicitly warns against false doctrine and teachers that would lead one astray. When you lump all professing Christians together just because some claim to be Christian is a clear oversight on your part. Many cults claim to be Christian churches and yet deny many of the fundamental doctrines that are essential to the faith

My post on Freewill and probation are on page 16 I believe, so please feel free to go back and read. I would encourage you to study them on your own and bring any issues or conclusions you may find here for discussion.

When I speak of truths, I speak of one truth. I speak of one way and one life. There are no shades or degrees here. There are not multiple paths in Christianity. There is but one way, one path, and one truth. Do Christians get everything right when it comes to God’s word, sadly no. Many are swayed by false doctrines or become complacent with a ‘herd mentality.’ The enemy will constantly be out there trying to dilute the truth and unless the church makes an absolute stand for the truth, liberalism and relativism will continue to spread its influence.

As far as denomination, I am a member of the Southern Baptist Convention and barring the few blatant religious cults out there, most evangelical Christian denominations derive doctrine from the protestant reformation and thus do not differ on the main, absolute doctrines such as the trinity, salvation, atonement, Holy Spirit, etc. Please feel free to point out any denominational impact to any of the doctrines discussed and I’ll be happy to shed some light on them for you.

Quote[/b] ]There is a huge, HUGE difference between me and the Israelites. They actually had a sign in front of them, remember the pillar of smoke by day and fire by night? God spoke to them, He was a fixture in their daily physical life. You are drawing far too many inferences here. I’m sorry, but I won’t give any quarter here. They were in a position that we are not. Come on, if I were there walking down a parted Red Sea I would be the staunchest of believers. They had that, they had the plagues, things they could see with all five senses and they STILL spat in God’s face. Do NOT draw a correlation between them and what we have today, it’s not the same thing. And let’s not forget the book of Revelations. Man will STILL part from God even after Christ’s reign of 1,000 years. WHY? What could possibly make Man part from God after living under Him for so long? These are underlying questions of a very serious nature.

Your absolutely right they had signs in front of them. However, they were God’s children, His chosen. You my friend are not so lucky at this point and time. I have something the Israelites didn’t have…I have the Spirit of the living God inside of me testifying to these things. I have all the evidence I could ever need just in living my life with Him. The Israelites had to leave their comfort zone as well before they saw these miracles. They still had to step out in faith and trust Moses. Why would you be any different? Accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and you’ll have so much more than a parting of the Red Sea or pillar of fire. You’ll have something that until around 33 AD was a blessing reserved for mostly Kings and Prophets.

Man will still part from God because of his hardened heart and selfish desire to choose contrary to God’s will. Satan will be loosed again at the end of the 1000 years to deceive those men and lead one final battle against God. Only until this happens will evil be vanquished forever and sin will be destroyed for all of eternity.

Quote[/b] ]You are damn right I want proof. God gave me two choices. Believe in Him or face everlasting torment. Sorry, but I’d like to know what I’m getting myself into here. Which is worse? To question God hoping to come to some sort of true understanding or to believe in God, not necessarily because you believe it’s the right thing to do, but because it’s the SAFE thing to do?

It’s one thing to question God but it’s another to willingly turn a blind eye to the obvious. Fear is a healthy characteristic and will ultimately lead one to saving faith. I feel deep down inside you understand truly what is it stake here. You are just not at a point to where you’ve been broken. Only then will your heart be ready to accept Him as Lord and Savior.

Quote[/b] ]And there are plenty of secular references that Invalidate the Bible. For every book you show me FOR the Bible, I can show you one against. So references don’t really amount to much do they? Proof equates to evidence. If the evidence was so startling and incontrovertible then yes, I would be a moron not to accept it. But the simple fact of life is that it is not that clear or simple. If it were there would only be one denomination of Christianity.

I'd be interested to learn of these sources. Maybe that's another topic for some other time. Even a professional historian is not foolish enough to deny the Bible and its accuracy in Historical events and places.

True evangelical Christians do not deny the absolute truths in the Bible--for example, the deity of Christ. Show me a ‘denomination’ that does deny the deity of Christ and I’ll show you that it’s a cult and is not Christian at all. The existence of multiple Christian denominations in no way invalidates the Bible

Quote[/b] ]How is humbling myself before God going to make the Bible any more clear? Are you saying that I am blind to God’s word because of my attitude? Is God supposed to whisper in my ear and everything will then become crystal?

Your attitude definitely affects your ability to hear and understand God’s word. Once you trust in Him for your salvation, yes, His word will become more abundantly clear.

Quote[/b] ]That is a HUGE inference on your part. That was a specific letter for a specific purpose. If you choose to read any more into it that is your choice.

Yes, the specific purpose that it was written for was to edify God’s people. You truly miss the doctrine of inspiration and God’s character if you think His word was only for a select few readers in Rome 2000 years ago. I guess you overlook the eternal significance of God’s word and you view it as simply a letter on a piece of parchment written by Paul, instead of the inspired, infallible, and inerrant Word of God. Paul even stated His letters were inspired and that he was set aside form birth.


"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him" (Jn. 1:1-3).

Quote[/b] ]I’ll be more careful which Christian sites I get my info from next time.

I’m simply saying you shouldn’t pick and choose items out of context to suit your arguments and ignore the rest of it.

Quote[/b] ]Keep in mind that when I criticize scripture I always try and use Christian sources to work from. I don’t see the point in pulling information from an atheistic author or website. I’m sorry, but how else am I supposed to see the Bible if not from my own background and experiences? I am not trying to have a discussion and rely on others for their opinion, I bring my own to the table, so yes, I’m going to be subjective at times. Are you being subjective in your defense?

The truths contained in Scripture are absolute and there is no room for subjectivity whether that’s yours or mine. Sure we both bring that to the table at times, however, the things I speak of have an objective, tangible reality that truly exists in my life. And I concede that that isn’t a reality for you and only you can experience that on your own and nothing I can say or do can make it any more real for you.

Quote[/b] ]Thank you for your frank discussion, it’s appreciated. I’ll be honest though, it makes me cringe every time you suggest it is up to God to somehow magically reveal Himself to me and lift some veil from my eyes.

I enjoy our discussions very much and look forward to more in the future as time permits.

God bless.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Watcher @ Sep. 20 2004,9:16)]

PHEW, long post

Quote[/b] ]Agreed. In using rationality as an adjective in the context I was using it in, it means having reason or understanding. The entire point of the statement was to illustrate your need for more understanding in what the Bible teaches.

How is that possible when you claim that the only way to "truly" understand the scriptures is to have the Holy Spirit?

Quote[/b] ]The fact that you question the ability of an all powerful God proves the point.

Slow down there. I am not questioning the abilities of an all powerful God. I am questioning the EXISTENCE of an all powerful God. This goes back to my discussion of the Exodus. If I were there, wouldn't I be a moron NOT to acknowledge the power of God? Yet the Israelites did that time and time again.

Quote[/b] ]How does logic explain the existence of the Christian Church today.

How do you explain the existence of other religions?

Quote[/b] ]How does logic explain the differences in the Disciples of the Gospels verses the Disciples of Acts. How does logic explain the willing sacrifice each of them made for Christianity, an apparent fallacy?

I would be more than happy to answer these questions if I actually knew what you were getting at. Elaborate and I will be more than happy to answer.

Quote[/b] ]How does logic explain the numerous secular references that confirm the claims of the Bible.

Just because the Bible contains a historical reference does not validate the entirety of the Book, nor does it prove its Divinity. If you're going to grant divinity to the Bible based on a few historical references, then how many other religous works would you have to give the same treatment to?

Quote[/b] ]How does logic explain the internal witness, continuity, and structure of a book written over the course of 1600 years with over 40 different authors from different walks of life.

Logic doesn't always give you the answer you want to hear. If you honestly, truthfully want to know the answer to this question you should really do some research into how the book you call the Bible came into existence. You'd be saddened how politics formed its creation.

Quote[/b] ]How does logic explain Paul’s letters to contemporaries of Jesus affirming the resurrection as truth.

How do you explain the inconsistences between the rest of the Gospels?

Quote[/b] ]How does logic explain the secular references to Jesus at all?

This is a subject in and of itself, but suffice it to say that if the secular references to Christ were that profound then there would be no point in a differential opinion. The truth is the secular references are sorely lacking. And some of the ones that DO exist have been altered to give Christ credence.

Quote[/b] ]Furthermore, how does logic explain the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus?

How do you explain the death, burial and resurrection stories that predate that of the Bible?

Quote[/b] ]How does logic explain the Bible confirming 20th century archaeological findings that were once scoffed at as fairytales from the Bible.

How do you explain the Akkadian knowledge of our universe that was only affirmed in the 1970's? That's a civilization that existed six THOUSAND years ago that knew how many planets there were in our solar system, their relative size and position to each other, and even their color.

Quote[/b] ]I could go on and on. In the end, this logical approach seems illogical to me.

SEEMINGLY illogical doesn't necessarily mean that it is ILLOGICAL. Was it logical that the church condemed Galileo and Copernicus for asserting that the earth was round which ran contrary to the beliefs of the time? Of course it wasn't. The church, and religion for the most part, has had to constantly play catch up with science, refitting their beliefs and creeds to fit the facts as they surface.

Quote[/b] ]The reality is you’ll find plenty of ‘evidence’ that argues the point both ways. You and I could sit here and argue in circles all day about the body of evidence or lack thereof. This is why it all, ultimately, comes down to faith.

And that is what is so frustrating. Backed into a logical and reasoning corner, the theist throws up his force field of faith. Faith is inpenetrable to any logical discussion because it relies on things that can't be seen or proven. How is rationality supposed to oppose that? The non-theist will always lose in the eyes of the theist because they lack faith and understanding in it. The theist always loses in the eyes of the non-theist because the theist turns his back on logical reasoning and adopts "reasoning" that can't be proven or disproven. Faith is a harbor that is invincible to the storms of logic and reason.

Quote[/b] ]Now for me, it’s so conclusive and obvious, I could never ‘turn’ my back from the truth or turn away from what I believe. Jesus Christ is that real in my life and I have those personal experiences on top of my own reason and logic to confirm what I believe.

I do not question your belief in Christ or God or the Bible. I question your reasoning that leads you to that conclusion. The reasoning and evidence that is devoid of logic and relies on things that can't be proven.

Quote[/b] ]So once again, we’re at an impasse. However, I would relish a discussion on the historicity of the Bible and an opportunity to discuss apologetics. I truly enjoy it very much and feel called especially in that area of the ministry.

Feel free to start a new thread on this and I will participate to the best of my abilities.

Quote[/b] ]The great news is we don’t need a degree in Theology to understand the truths contained in Scripture.

This is true, however, we haven't gone back far enough. One DOES need education and understanding of how the scriptures came into being and how their divinity was granted.

Quote[/b] ]Theology in a broad sense can be broken down as the Study or Doctrine of God. Alternatively, Theology is also used to define the study of all doctrines that pertain to the Holy Scriptures.

Note that the dictionary definition adds that theology is a rational inquiry into religious questions.

Quote[/b] ]And here’s another truth, we’re all called to be theologians, whether that’s a layman or professional, it’s up to God’s calling in your life.

Is this a "truth" or is this an opinion of your own?

Quote[/b] ]However, as a Christian, we’re all called to be disciples and students of His word. You have a desire to answer questions, but you’ve also closed the Lord out of certain areas of your life and in your heart.

Again, this is an easy out. You're saying that no non-theist (or basically any opposing view) can hold merit because they are devoid of the Holy Spirit. How can anyone have a dissenting opinion? If someone disagrees with scripture you automatically label them as having diminished capacities.

Quote[/b] ]There are some things that you just aren’t willing to get rid of in your life, therefore, He will not reveal Himself in the way that you seek.

I lay the same charge in your direction. You aren't willing to acknowledge logic and reason in determining your beliefs. Instead, you rely on Faith, the belief in things unproveable.

Quote[/b] ]Hence my admonition to you to humble yourself before Him and understand you can have an audience with the Creator and Master of the Universe. Jesus has given you that audience. It truly is impossible for our human intellect to grasp the awesome splendor and character of God. We have to rely on anthropomorphic illustrations, thank the Lord that He gave us those, just to comprehend His ways.

And here it is, the crux of the problem. No one can understand the Bible, according to you, if they don't have certain gifts from God. Sorry, but that's an easy out.

Quote[/b] ]A teachable spirit.

How does a skeptic ackquire a teachable spirit? It's a vicious cycle that will never come to fruition. A skeptic can't learn about God without the Holy Spirit and he can't receive the gift of the Holy Spirit without believing in God. Doesn't this sound just a bit ludicrous?

Quote[/b] ]I disagree. What your typical church going Christian has that you do not, is the Holy Spirit. We have God living inside of us bearing witness to Himself and to His word. That, my friend, you will never have until you accept Him as Lord and Savior of your life.

See my points above.

Quote[/b] ]There is understanding and wisdom imparted to you upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. My prayer for you is that as you continue on your quest for understanding that you’re able to cast aside your pride and humble yourself before the almighty God of the Universe and give Him the true respect and worship that He deserves. I encourage you to diligently seek Him

LOL, this reminds me of WC Fields, "Go away boy, you bother me". You're asking me to seek a being that I don't believe in, to humble myself before a being I don't believe in, to seek a gift from a being that I don't believe in. And you're telling me I can't truly understand this being unless I seek him, believe him and get gifts from him. This is a dog chasing his tail.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, and yes. And through Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection He is glorified. In other words, Jesus succeeded where Adam did not. You and I can now enjoy eternal fellowship with God, which is why we were created. In anticipation of your reply to this, I’ll again mention freewill and probation was necessary.

HA, I didn't even know what I was going to say, but obviously you did

It's nice to know that I can enjoy eternal fellowship with God, but how about a little something in the here and now? Why is Faith necessary to believe in God? Why is it that the majority of men that actually had intimate knowledge of this God chose to deny him? Again, I point to the Israelites during the Exodus. You expect me to have faith in God, so far removed from Him in light of what the Bible says the Israelites did? They had Him right there in front of them and it wasn't good enough for them and you expect it to be good enough for me?

Quote[/b] ]Of course God knew He would rebel, and at the same time, God knew man as a race would be redeemed.

The why would an omnimax need to go through all this rigamarole?

Quote[/b] ]The entire Old Testament points to Jesus.

Now that is truly debateable.

Quote[/b] ]However, as I have mentioned, Satan was created perfect in all His ways until inquity was found in him. Being created perfect has nothing to do with Freewill and the fact that Satan chose contrary to his inclination towards God. Satan was created perfect with the freewill to choose. In the end, he chose to sin.

If you created a perfect car and in production the steering veered to the right and caused accidents would you still consider it perfect? If you created the perfect meal that was pleasing to the palate yet gave you salmonella, would you still consider it perfect? If you had a perfect little child that grew up to be a serial killer that never got caught, would you still consider him perfect? Let's look at some definitions of perfect: Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind. Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen. Thoroughly skilled or talented in a certain field or area; proficient. Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation. How can you consider Satan to be perfect and yet still choose to rebel against God? That decision alone voids his perfection. Either way, God created satan knowing full well what his decision would be. So God created evil, God sponsored evil, God condoned evil, God NEEDED evil. To say that God couldn't create a perfect being without a blemish kinda nullifies Him being God now doesn't it?

Quote[/b] ]Sure, God could have created legions of unfeeling, programmed robots. However, because He is sovereign, He chose to create beings with the freewill to choose to love and obey Him. In order to truly choose obedience, probation and the possibility to rebel must be a real option.

Now who is limiting God? Why couldn't God create a being with freewill that was loving and feeling to worship Him? You are eager to posit the notion that we are limited in our intelligence and can't understand why God would do the things he does, well I ask you, why couldn't God create His followers in a better manner? If God is truly omnimax, why didn't He realize how grieved He would be at how His creation turned out? So grived in fact that He would choose to wipe out the whole world. Thank God? No, thank Moses for changing his Mind!

Quote[/b] ]I know it’s not easy. I was where you were some years ago. I was raised in the church and as I became older, I questioned everything. I felt indoctrinated and wanted to understand things for myself. I turned my back on God for 10 years and all I can say is that He was patient and merciful.

I would be interested in knowing what turned you back to Christianity, and what caused you to leave in the first place. I understand that's personal though.

Quote[/b] ]I wasn’t saved, and had I died during those 10 years, I’d have spent an eternity in hell.

Please show biblical reference for spending an eternity in Hell. I've already shown this to be a misnomer in previous posts. If you believe differently, I would like to see some biblical proof for this.

Quote[/b] ]God is all-merciful, slow to anger, and patient. I’m a living testimony to that.

Let's not forget that God also is weary, judges, cries, shouts, hates, fears, is angry, in wrath, in fury, takes vengeance, is
grieved, jealous, promises, threatens, repents, changes his mind, swears, takes oaths, deceives, lies, swears he will not lie, and is a "man of war".

Quote[/b] ]One has to truly be saved and ‘know’ the truth, and in the same spirit of Lucifer choose to rebel against God and turn their back on Him willingly.

And how do you know I didn't "truly know" the truth? Shall we also have a discussion on who Lucifer really is? Lucifer is NOT Satan, that's yet another misconception that has taken root in tradition.

Quote[/b] ]You may have been raised in the church and even said a prayer when you were young like I did. The truth is, the prayer isn’t what saves you. One can have both an intellectual and emotional experience and still not be saved. Without a change in will, there’s no salvation.

How do you know if one has been "saved" then? If you assert that knowledge was never really gained and thus was never "saved" then there would be need for the terms apostate or heretic.

Quote[/b] ]So just in case you think you were once saved and now have turned your back on Him and have no options because you committed the unforgivable sin, think again.

You still have a chance, it’s not too late. We may step out into eternity tomorrow, which is why the Bible says today is the day of Salvation!

That's assuming I choose to beleive in this being, which isn't likely as I have come to embrace reason, forsaking Faith.

Quote[/b] ]Faith is not in opposition to logic and reason. Faith establishes the principles from which we reason logically. St. Augustine said, "The validity of logical sequences is not a thing devised by men, but is observed and noted by them. It exists eternally in the reason of things, and has its origin with God.

Faith does, however, exist outside the realm of logic and reason. I say it is in opposition to logic and reason because do not, can not, validate Faith.

Quote[/b] ]God is a God of logical absolutes, therefore, logic and reason is applicable to the truths of Scripture. Logic and reason as applied to Scripture are what brought me to saving faith.

Interesting considering that logic and reason are what keep me from believing.

Quote[/b] ]The evidence is all around you. He’s also placed an internal witness inside of every human being. You see, we were created specifically to be in fellowship with Him. And until that fellowship is again realized, there is always that ‘something’ missing in life. You hear people say it all the time. And seemingly, they have everything they could ever possibly want in this world. Yet there is still emptiness, a void that needs to be filled, and only one person can fill it…

Yes, people say there is something missing all the time, but you are drawing a HUGE inference to that missing thing being God. Do ALL people say that something is missing? No. Can I even fathom a guess as to the percentage of people that do? No. Are there plenty of people that beleive that NOTHING is missing from their lives? Absolutely. I'm sorry, but that is an absurd notion with absolutely nothing substantial to acknowledge it.

 

[Gandhi]

New forum rule make shorter posts.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Watcher @ Sep. 20 2004,9:18)]

Quote[/b] ]Stuff on Job: Condensed to save space

You missed the WHOLE point. I'll break it down again. God is God because He is omnimax. Part of being an omnimax being is being omniscient; knowing all, past, present and future. God should have known that Job would never turn his back on Him. There was absolutely NO need to have Satan torture this man's life. But, God let Satan have his way with him anyway. Why did God feel the need to prove Himself to Satan?

I take it we are to believe that this is an historic story and not a parable? Jim, in another thread, has asked how we are to know the difference and I pose the same question to you.

Quote[/b] ]These are some wild accusations that are untrue. Satan’s purpose was to lead worship in heaven. He is also believed to have held the rank of archangel along with Michael and Gabriel.

So you match my wild accusations with equally wild assumptions? Where in the Bible does it say that Satan's purpose was the lead worship in Heaven? Where does it say anything about holding a rank of archangel?

Quote[/b] ]God created the perfectly righteous Lucifer by His choice and Lucifer created the absolutely wicked Satan by his choice. Make sense?

Heck no. God made Lucifer and Lucifer created Satan? I would like some Bible verses to back this up please. "Lucifer" only appears once in the Bible and comes from Jerome's Latin Vulgate, it does not appear anywhere in the Hebrew text, and refers to the King of Babylon.

Quote[/b] ]There may be different opinions, but there is one truth. Whether others call themselves Christians and claim to know the true teachings of Scripture is suspect. There are many false doctrines out there under a “Christian banner.” Just because it looks and smells like a donut, doesn’t mean it is one. My point is this, the Bible explicitly warns against false doctrine and teachers that would lead one astray. When you lump all professing Christians together just because some claim to be Christian is a clear oversight on your part. Many cults claim to be Christian churches and yet deny many of the fundamental doctrines that are essential to the faith

Believe me, there is no oversight whatsoever. Where does one draw the line between cult and church? Is one denomination better than the other? More right than the other? More sacred than the other? How do you know what is what? Do denominations mean anything? Do you need to be a part of one for salvation? I don't expect an answer to this because for every question there will be a different answer depending on which Christian you talk to. It's amazing how many denominations and cults have sprung up from the one unalterable, infallible Word of God. Once you start pointing the figure of which Christian faction is right and which one is wrong, you find yourself on a very slippery slope.

Quote[/b] ]My post on Freewill and probation are on page 16 I believe, so please feel free to go back and read. I would encourage you to study them on your own and bring any issues or conclusions you may find here for discussion.

I'll try and dig them up again, although I may create a new thread for them, since it's a topic in its own right.

Quote[/b] ]When I speak of truths, I speak of one truth. I speak of one way and one life. There are no shades or degrees here. There are not multiple paths in Christianity. There is but one way, one path, and one truth. Do Christians get everything right when it comes to God’s word, sadly no. Many are swayed by false doctrines or become complacent with a ‘herd mentality.’ The enemy will constantly be out there trying to dilute the truth and unless the church makes an absolute stand for the truth, liberalism and relativism will continue to spread its influence.

You speak of one way, one truth, but one way, one truth according to WHO? Just because you think you're right doesn't mean another Christian will agree. You denounce other Christians for being swayed by false doctrines, how do you know you aren't one of them? Now imagine what someone on the outside looking in sees. What are they to make of your religion when its followers can't even keep their beliefs straight?

Quote[/b] ]As far as denomination, I am a member of the Southern Baptist Convention and barring the few blatant religious cults out there, most evangelical Christian denominations derive doctrine from the protestant reformation and thus do not differ on the main, absolute doctrines such as the trinity, salvation, atonement, Holy Spirit, etc. Please feel free to point out any denominational impact to any of the doctrines discussed and I’ll be happy to shed some light on them for you.

I'll look up this denomination and do some research on it. Am I to assume that you believe this denomination to be the most correct? What about other denominations, are they wrong? Or decieved or under some false doctrine? Who sets which doctrine is correct and which is false?

Quote[/b] ]Your absolutely right they had signs in front of them. However, they were God’s children, His chosen.

Shouldn't He have chosen a more worthwhile people? He should have known they were so wishy washy, right?

Quote[/b] ]You my friend are not so lucky at this point and time. I have something the Israelites didn’t have…I have the Spirit of the living God inside of me testifying to these things. I have all the evidence I could ever need just in living my life with Him. The Israelites had to leave their comfort zone as well before they saw these miracles. They still had to step out in faith and trust Moses.

Their faith in Moses and God didn't take them very far did it?

Why would you be any different? Accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and you’ll have so much more than a parting of the Red Sea or pillar of fire. You’ll have something that until around 33 AD was a blessing reserved for mostly Kings and Prophets.

NO TANGIBLE PROOF. I'm sorry, but that's what it comes down to. There is nothing to cause me to believe in God. There is no proof out there. There is just some magical warm, fuzzy feeling that you talk of. I don't mean to belittle it, but really, what more is there?

Quote[/b] ]Man will still part from God because of his hardened heart and selfish desire to choose contrary to God’s will. Satan will be loosed again at the end of the 1000 years to deceive those men and lead one final battle against God. Only until this happens will evil be vanquished forever and sin will be destroyed for all of eternity.

Why would man have a hardened heart and have any selfish desires whatsoever after living with Christ on earth?

Quote[/b] ]It’s one thing to question God but it’s another to willingly turn a blind eye to the obvious.

But it's NOT obvious and that's the problem.

Quote[/b] ]Fear is a healthy characteristic and will ultimately lead one to saving faith. I feel deep down inside you understand truly what is it stake here. You are just not at a point to where you’ve been broken. Only then will your heart be ready to accept Him as Lord and Savior.

So you're saying that before I can believe I have to be full of Fear? Fear leads to faith? I wish you'd expound on this.

Quote[/b] ]I'd be interested to learn of these sources. Maybe that's another topic for some other time. Even a professional historian is not foolish enough to deny the Bible and its accuracy in Historical events and places.

That's definately a thread in and of itself. And what I'm talking about is not a denial in acknowledging the Bible accurately portrays historical events and places. However, it is just as foolish to believe that a handful (and they are a handful) of historical accounts validate the divinity of the Bible.

Quote[/b] ]True evangelical Christians do not deny the absolute truths in the Bible--for example, the deity of Christ. Show me a ‘denomination’ that does deny the deity of Christ and I’ll show you that it’s a cult and is not Christian at all. The existence of multiple Christian denominations in no way invalidates the Bible

I didn't assert that the existence of multiple denominations invalidates the Bible. If anything it invalidates the Bibles coherance and unity.

Quote[/b] ]Your attitude definitely affects your ability to hear and understand God’s word. Once you trust in Him for your salvation, yes, His word will become more abundantly clear.

How do you trust in God's word without believing in God first? How do you believe in God without first believing in His word?

Quote[/b] ]Yes, the specific purpose that it was written for was to edify God’s people. You truly miss the doctrine of inspiration and God’s character if you think His word was only for a select few readers in Rome 2000 years ago. I guess you overlook the eternal significance of God’s word and you view it as simply a letter on a piece of parchment written by Paul, instead of the inspired, infallible, and inerrant Word of God. Paul even stated His letters were inspired and that he was set aside form birth.

I guess I overlook the fact that you can read pretty much whatever you want to in the scriptures.

Quote[/b] ]I’m simply saying you shouldn’t pick and choose items out of context to suit your arguments and ignore the rest of it.

That goes both ways. It's not something that I make a habit of and if I did it, it was unintentional.

Quote[/b] ]The truths contained in Scripture are absolute and there is no room for subjectivity whether that’s yours or mine. Sure we both bring that to the table at times, however, the things I speak of have an objective, tangible reality that truly exists in my life. And I concede that that isn’t a reality for you and only you can experience that on your own and nothing I can say or do can make it any more real for you.

If the scriptures were absolute there wouldn't be a need for multiple denominations would there? If things were that clear cut there would be ONE church that was right and all the others would be wrong.

Quote[/b] ]I enjoy our discussions very much and look forward to more in the future as time permits.

Ditto