The Bible

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Arkanjel @ Sep. 09 2004,9:39)]

Quote[/b] ]The reason God tests us is not to see if we will "pass" the test, it is for refinement.

Sorry, I don't buy that. That assumes that God is not omniscient, that He doesn't know if we will pass the test or not. Shouldn't God already know if we will pass the test or not?

Quote[/b] ]It is the same as refining any precious metal. You temper it with fire. The bible is full of references to refinement to better man and teach him how to be more "godly".

In this case, God tempers not with fire, but with pan, suffering, misery and evil. Man refines metal because we can create metal out of thin air. God doesn't need to refine man. God could have created a refined man, but He chose not to.

Quote[/b] ]That is why Jesus is described as the potter and we are described as the clay. He is molding us through challenges, tests, pain and suffering, good times, bad times.

Again, that is a horrible analogy. A potter cannot create fine china from the same clay that makes pots for plants. God, however, can create anything from anything or nothing. God chose to create a flawed being.

Quote[/b] ]Its not a punishment, its tough love.

You would think that an omnimax being could do better than "tough love".

Quote[/b] ]People do the same to their own children. First you will tell a child not to touch the hot plate and he might listen for a few minutes or even a few days. After awhile that child will want to find out on his own if the plate is really hot. Then comes the burn. Now the child understands that which he has already been told, but he had to find it out for himself. We are ALL children in Gods eyes.

Again, you're limiting God. God always sees the child, omniscient remember? Yeah, letting the child burn their hand is the best way for the child to learn, but any parent worth their salt would give their life to spare their child ANY hurt. Here we have a parent that not only puts their child in the middle of pestilence, evil and innumerable horror, but that parent CREATED the pestilence and evil! That's like you or me putting a small kid in a room full of beautifully lit candles, telling the kid not to touch the pretty things and then walking out. I think we all know what would happen. If God were a parent in our world, He would be in jail and we'd be in the care of social services.

 

[Arkanjel]

Dude you need to chill out. And do some serious thinking about what your thinking. YOU my friend are the one who is limiting God. He gives us examples we can understand. He does not give us overly compicated examples because the MAJORITY of mankind is not that smart. We are a product of a PERFECT God. We are also a product of a FALLEN world. He sent His Son not to condemn us but to save us from our own short comings. Perhaps you dont realize the scope of this thing called FREE-WILL. It is the most powerful gift ever given to any being. He gave us the option to believe in Him or Not to believe. This gift was not given to his angels. They have no choice but to believe in Him. Why he gave us that option of free-will is anybodies guess, but he hasnt given us that answer. Until he does it will be speculated about six-ways till sunday.

In Christ,
Gabriel

 

[Dark Virtue]

Exactly HOW am I limiting God?

YOU are the one limiting God to this one choice that He made, I'm telling you that He, in His omniscience, could have done things in other ways.

You said that we are a product of a PERFECT God. Have I refuted that? No, you're avoiding my point. Yes, we are the product of a PERFECT God, we are his IMPERFECT creation set down in the midst of His evil creation to perform some test that is completely unnecessary.

I don't think YOU understand how limited this mighty Free Will is. I've said it before and I'll say it again, He didn't give us much of a choice did He? Either we choose Him or we choose an eternity of pain and suffereing. That's not much of a choice is it? Come on, answer this question, is that really a choice? God or hell?

Now let's talk about the Free Will of angels, shall we? You said they don't have any other choice but to believe in Him. Why is that? Maybe because they have face to face contact with him since their creation? Hey, if I was face to face with God every day I'd have to accept him too. I think the angels have PLENTY of free will. 1/3 of them rose up against God now didn't they? Or did God force them to do that? Sounds like Free Will to me.

I will agree with you on one point. There are no hard answers and tons of speculation. That, my friend, is why we're here, to speculate and discuss. Yet you get all up in arms when speculation occurs. Hey, I'm just exercising my God given right of Free Will here.

 

[Gandhi]

Quote[/b] ]This gift was not given to his angels. They have no choice but to believe in Him.

How do u explain fallen angels, if they didn't have free will.

And if your a angel and u see god and all his miracles, y would some of them leave.

DV your posts are always great to read. I got to learn and get better at my debating skills.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Ha! Thanks

 

[PapaToad]

That is true, As much I don't want to encourage you. You have valid questions DV.

About passing judsment. I once heard adn I guess i find it true. God does not pass judgement onb us till the very end. Because it is our choice to choose right or wrong.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Sep. 09 2004,12:55)]That is true, As much I don't want to encourage you. You have valid questions DV.

About passing judsment. I once heard adn I guess i find it true. God does not pass judgement onb us till the very end. Because it is our choice to choose right or wrong.

So you don't subscribe to the predestination argument?

 

[Arkanjel]

Lets look at the first wrong choice ever made. Eve was TEMPTED and ate from the tree. Nobody knows what she ate or what the tree was, but the point is that a descision was made to go against what she had been expressly forbade from doing. In return the punishment was death. God created us in a perfect world, we werent put here until the world was finished. Just like you dont move in to a house until it has been finished being built ( or at least some people

) Lucifer/Satan was the tempter here. If it had not been for him, eve probably would not have made the wrong choice. Lucifer is described to us a the most beautiful creation that God made, until iniquity was found in him. Lucifer wanted to be like God, like children want to be like their daddy, then he got greedy and wanted to be higher then God, like children want to do better than their parents do. Why was Lucifer made with these qualities in him? That I dont know, God hasnt told us yet.

A side note here - Allah Ackbar(sp?) means god is greatest ie. greater than other gods.. Lucifer setting himself above God

After the fall of man, we were cursed to work the earth and to have painful childbirth. Therefore we must have had neither before the fall. So we have Lucifer who was the leader of worship and in charge of all the other angels who do all have free will, to either break the laws or not. Mankind has had a veil pulled between our reality and the realm that God dwells in. So we are at a bit of a disadvantage. WHY? God hasnt told us why, so there is no sure answer. Not only do we have to believe in that which we cannot see, we also have to abide by the spiritual laws that were set in place by the creator.
There are 2 kinds of laws - Spiritual Laws and Natural Laws.
These are the laws that mankind has been given. We can break both types of laws but not without consquences from either. Example. Gravity is a natural law, if you try and break this law by stepping off a cliff and expect to float, you will pay the price for it, IMMEDIATELY. Spiritual laws are a bit different. If you sin ie. kill, steal, whatever, you have broken the law. You will be held accountable for this at the time of judgement. Either way if you break a law you will pay for it. For the wages of sin is death. Just like the wages of jumping off a cliff is death.
So why did 1/3 of the angels rebel? That wasnt explained to us, so therefore we dont know. Perhaps Lucifer was just that persuasive, maybe he offered them a place at his side. Regardless he's NOT going to win the fight. God is soveriegn (that word you dont like) ie. he is the boss of everything. Why didnt he just stop things right there? Not explained to us. Why didnt he fix creation and punish Lucifer after what he did? Not explained to us. Maybe , just maybe, our whole existence is being used as an example to lucifer that He(God) can create an imperfect being that loves and worships Him without being in His presence. Im sure that would be quite the stick in Lucifer's eye. Perhaps there is no going back for Lucifer, he would have to bow down to Jesus and accept Him as Lord. As we all know that doesnt happen. There are MANY mysteries that wont be answered until we are on the other side, like is our soul indestructable? The bottom line is, we have been given what we need to know to get us to the other side safely and assure ourselves a place in God's kingdom.


In Christ,
Gabriel

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]Lets look at the first wrong choice ever made. Eve was TEMPTED and ate from the tree.... God created us in a perfect world, we werent put here until the world was finished.... Lucifer/Satan was the tempter here. If it had not been for him, eve probably would not have made the wrong choice....Why was Lucifer made with these qualities in him? That I dont know, God hasnt told us yet.

So are you agreeing with me when I say that God, being omniscient, created Evil, created Satan to tempt man, created Man with doubt enough to believe in Satan instead of God and did all this so Man would fall? I haven't disagreed with anything you have said up till this point. God created an inperfect being and placed it in this "perfect" setting, right? How "perfect" was it though? He placed temptation smack dab in the middle of the Garden and said don't touch. Tell a 3 year old he can have any candy he wants except for THIS ONE and see which one he goes for. God created the temptation knowing full well, far in advance, that man would Fall. Again, we're not disagreeing here. The question comes down to WHY?

Quote[/b] ]A side note here - Allah Ackbar(sp?) means god is greatest ie. greater than other gods.. Lucifer setting himself above God

I don't understand how you get Lucifer is setting himself above God from Allah Ackbar.

Quote[/b] ]After the fall of man, we were cursed to work the earth and to have painful childbirth. Therefore we must have had neither before the fall.

Slow down a bit here. How long do you suppose they were together before they sinned? Quite a few scholars admit that the original sin was actually the obtaining of knowledge of procreation. So could A&E procreate in the presence of God? Did they have "relations"? Anyway, I digress. I must remind you that God had every intention of cursing man and creating pain here.

Quote[/b] ]So we have Lucifer who was the leader of worship and in charge of all the other angels who do all have free will, to either break the laws or not.

Let's not forget, again, that these angels were created with God knowing they would rebel against Him.

Quote[/b] ]Mankind has had a veil pulled between our reality and the realm that God dwells in. So we are at a bit of a disadvantage. WHY?

That isn't QUITE the question. In the beginning, it was a very thin veil, wasn't it? God spoke to man and made His presence known absolutely. Yet, in the midst of this evidence, MAN STILL WOULD NOT ACCEPT GOD. This is my question. WHY? If God was truly great, why would man, who knew Him intimately, reject Him? Not once, but time and time and time again? And why would God create this "thing" knowing how much grief it would cause Him?

Quote[/b] ]Spiritual laws are a bit different. If you sin ie. kill, steal, whatever, you have broken the law. You will be held accountable for this at the time of judgement. Either way if you break a law you will pay for it. For the wages of sin is death. Just like the wages of jumping off a cliff is death.

I need a point of clarification here. Do you believe man is born sinless or with sin?

Quote[/b] ]So why did 1/3 of the angels rebel? That wasnt explained to us, so therefore we dont know. Perhaps Lucifer was just that persuasive, maybe he offered them a place at his side.

Oh come on now. How good of an orator would Lucifer have to be to convince these angels that He actually had a snowball's chance in hell of defeating God the Almighty, the creator of Everything, including them? Were 1/3 of the angels just that stupid? Or, were they created with some flaw to allow them to believe in Lucifer? Remember, God created them with full knowledge that they would rebel. I just don't understand how man could deny God in His presence, and I find it even harder to believe that angels would rebel against Him since they were clearly aware of His awesome power.

Quote[/b] ]Regardless he's NOT going to win the fight. God is soveriegn (that word you dont like) ie. he is the boss of everything. Why didnt he just stop things right there? Not explained to us. Why didnt he fix creation and punish Lucifer after what he did? Not explained to us. Maybe , just maybe, our whole existence is being used as an example to lucifer that He(God) can create an imperfect being that loves and worships Him without being in His presence. Im sure that would be quite the stick in Lucifer's eye.

Eh? I'm sure Lucifer was laughing himself silly during the Exodus. Here these people were absolutely aware of God's presence yet still denied him repeatedly.

Quote[/b] ]There are MANY mysteries that wont be answered until we are on the other side...

On this, I wholeheartedly agree.

Quote[/b] ]The bottom line is, we have been given what we need to know to get us to the other side safely and assure ourselves a place in God's kingdom.

On this, I totally disagree.

 

[Watcher]

DV, I say this on love...you know enough about Christianity to place yourself in extreme danger. Your distorted and subjective views are irrational and lacking reason. I liken it to "I believe this and no matter what you say you can't make me believe otherwise."

You have a right to your own beliefs, however, before you begin attacking Christianity, please study up on your theology so you can posit arguments that truly make sense and show a true understanding of the Holy Scriptures.

I have to be honest in saying I stop reading your responses after seeing you regurgitate statements like "God created Satan to tempt Adam and Eve."

Sheesh, that is just ridiculous and demonstrates your dire need to study the Old Testament.

I wish you well in your quest to find truth. You might enjoy more success if you were a little more open minded and sincere in your search. The Lord says seek and you shall find. If you're truly seeking Him, you'll find Him, period. Lose your pride and understand you know next to nothing about the ways of the Creator of the Universe and you need to devote time to studying His word. Humble yourself before the almighty God and you'll find all the 'empirical evidence' you'll ever need.

If you do anything, please read the below passage of Scripture carefully. I think you'll recognize it well. We all recognize it because it was the state we were all in before Salvation and we find that no matter what, there is no excuse for ignorance and we will all be held accountable. I'm praying for you.

Romans 1:18-32

18. But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves.

19. For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.

20. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.

21. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused.

22. Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead.

23. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people, or birds and animals and snakes.

24. So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies.

25. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen.

26. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

27. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

28. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

29. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.

30. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents.

31. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving.

32. They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]DV, I say this on love...you know enough about Christianity to place yourself in extreme danger. Your distorted and subjective views are irrational and lacking reason. I liken it to "I believe this and no matter what you say you can't make me believe otherwise."

Quite the contrary my friend, my views are quite rational and based on reason, yours NOT rational and based on faith.  And don't most Christians stand steadfast in their beliefs and refuse to change?  Please read my other posts to support what I am about to say, I am more than willing to be proven wrong.  HOWEVER, I prefer to make my choices based on rationale, reason and proof.  Three things that Christianity cannot offer.

Quote[/b] ]You have a right to your own beliefs, however, before you begin attacking Christianity, please study up on your theology so you can posit arguments that truly make sense and show a true understanding of the Holy Scriptures.

I can say, with all honesty, that I have a greater understanding of the Bible and Christianity in general than most of its followers.  Let's see, besides years of my own personal study I also minored in Philosophy in college studying World Religions and the philosophy behind them.  If you don't agree with my arguments, by all means shoot them down.  That should be quite easy for you to do since you think I am intellectually inept and lacking in the ability to posit an intelligent argument.  For the sake of my inferior mind, please point out which of my arguments are questionable and without any factual basis?

Quote[/b] ]I have to be honest in saying I stop reading your responses after seeing you regurgitate statements like "God created Satan to tempt Adam and Eve."

Then please tell me why God created Satan.  God, in His omniscience, knew Satan would rebel and take 1/3 of the angels with him, so he would have to know prior to their creation what they would do.  God is also omnipotent, so He could have, if He wanted to create Satan without the ability to Fall or tempt A&E.  So why did he?

Quote[/b] ]Sheesh, that is just ridiculous and demonstrates your dire need to study the Old Testament.

So what have I missed?  Since you seem to be an expert on the OT, please tell me why the Israelites, in their wanderings, continually doubted the power of God even though they witnessed the Plagues and his other miracles.

Quote[/b] ]I wish you well in your quest to find truth. You might enjoy more success if you were a little more open minded and sincere in your search. The Lord says seek and you shall find. If you're truly seeking Him, you'll find Him, period. Lose your pride and understand you know next to nothing about the ways of the Creator of the Universe and you need to devote time to studying His word. Humble yourself before the almighty God and you'll find all the 'empirical evidence' you'll ever need.

Exactly how am I being closed minded?  Exactly how am I being prideful?  I HAVE studied the Bible.  Do you even know what the term "Empirical Evidence" is?  How are you relating a scientific term to something that cannot be proven?

Romans 1:18-32

Um, last time I checked Paul was preaching to the Jew & Gentiles here, not to all men for all time.  Paul wrote to the Romans with the intention of explaining “What a Christian Believes”. There were already believers in Rome but he wanted to make sure that they had a faith that was well-grounded and not subject to the whims of public opinion. His argument was directed towards the Gentiles, the Jews in the congregation were loving it because Paul was very direct to the Gentiles:
He said that God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts and the Jews all said, "Amen!"
He said that God gave them over to degrading passions and the Jews all said, "Amen!"
He said that God gave them over to a depraved mind and the Jews all said, "Amen!"
Then he drops the bomb on the Jews when he says, "YOU are without excuse." And there is an uncomfortable silence in response. "What do you mean when you say that WE are without excuse?" Paul says, "You are without excuse because you have passed judgment upon the very sins which you yourself are committing."

The application here is for those who see themselves as being moral and upstanding and who look at themselves as being better than the pagan.

Try moving on to the next chapter...

Rom 2:1 "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things."

By starting with the word "therefore," Paul takes us back to the previous chapter where he has just delivered a blistering condemnation against the pagan world of his day.  Who are the judges of whom Paul spoke? They are RELIGIOUS people. And they are judged on the basis of their religion. Thus, the judgers are judged. God will not have to search through His law looking for a basis to condemn you. He will be able to use the judgments that you will have passed on others.  You see, when you judge others, you are reflecting a standard of morality. And you will be found to be guilty of breaking your own standards. The truth is that we do not even live up to our own standards. Thus, the more you judge others, the more you pass judgment upon yourself. THAT is what Paul's message was.

So,you weren't judging me, were you?

 

[Thaddius]

I think it all comes down to free will. God knows that people will choose otherwise, just as children rebel against their parents. Satan chose to rebel. The 1/3 of angels chose to rebel. They may actually believe that they have a chance to overthrow the power of God, I don't know. All of these questions you ask DV seem come down to that. Of course if we never had free will we sould never have these issues. But of course, then nothing we ever did would matter if we didnt have the choice to make. Even though you say we only have 1 choice, (to believe or not to believe) atleast God gave us that choice. Based on previous threads, it seems you don't beleive in Hell (or the lake of fire) for non-believers. If you don't then why is it so important to you that this is your only choice?

Cory

 

[Dark Virtue]

Because sometimes I choose to argue from a Christian perspective.

It seems to me that Free Will is, and always has been, a huge mistake.

At every opportunity Man has chosen anything but God. Even some of God's angels chose against Him.

You brought up a good point, maybe the angels actually believed they could overthrow God. Now why did they think that? This was the being that created the Universe and was omnimax. You have an army of angels going up against a superior numbered force (2:1) AND the Supreme Being. They had to have thought they had a chance, however slim to succeed, right? The only thing I can think of is that they thought God was actually LIMITED in power. Some way, some how, they believed He had a weakness and chose to try and exploit it.

 

[Arkanjel]

sorry wrong thread

 

[Dark Virtue]

Oh now you tell me

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]Quite the contrary my friend, my views are quite rational and based on reason, yours NOT rational and based on faith.  And don't most Christians stand steadfast in their beliefs and refuse to change?  Please read my other posts to support what I am about to say, I am more than willing to be proven wrong.  HOWEVER, I prefer to make my choices based on rationale, reason and proof.  Three things that Christianity cannot offer.

The context of my statement was directed at your distorted views on the Holy Scriptures. They lack rationality, in other words, understanding. When I stated that your views lack reason, it wasn’t an attack on your capacity for analytic thought, rather it was pointing out your lack of good judgment in regard to the Scriptures, which would improve with more diligent study.

Quote[/b] ]I can say, with all honesty, that I have a greater understanding of the Bible and Christianity in general than most of its followers.  Let's see, besides years of my own personal study I also minored in Philosophy in college studying World Religions and the philosophy behind them.  If you don't agree with my arguments, by all means shoot them down.  That should be quite easy for you to do since you think I am intellectually inept and lacking in the ability to posit an intelligent argument.  For the sake of my inferior mind, please point out which of my arguments are questionable and without any factual basis?

I don’t agree with your arguments because they in no way follow proper hermeneutics, exegesis, or textual criticism. You instead prefer arguments that are tainted with your own personal, subjective rhetoric and beliefs.  

Just because we can’t wrap our minds around something stated in the Scriptures does not mean that we throw it out the window. That’s great that you minored in World Philosophy in school, however, that holds no relevance whatsoever in studying the Word of God.

As for your ineptness and lack of understanding when it comes to the Bible, it is something that can be remedied and is in your power to change. In no way was I questioning your intelligence or lack thereof.

Quote[/b] ]Then please tell me why God created Satan.  God, in His omniscience, knew Satan would rebel and take 1/3 of the angels with him, so he would have to know prior to their creation what they would do.  God is also omnipotent, so He could have, if He wanted to create Satan without the ability to Fall or tempt A&E.  So why did he?

God created Satan just as He created the rest of the universe, us included. He created the universe to glorify Him. Satan was created perfect, again, with the free will to choose obedience or rebellion. Now, the Bible does not specifically address the ‘why’ He created the universe in light of his foreknowledge of the fall. However, the battle is already over, and guess what, God wins. The whole of creation was redeemed when Christ died on the cross. You simply need to accept the atonement that was made and the propitiation or appeasment of God's wrath that was made for you. The Bible clearly addresses the ‘why’ some things have not been revealed.

The secret things belong unto the Lord our God; but the things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law (Deuteronomy 29:29).

You have to also keep in mind, the main message of Scripture is ‘God and humanity.’ Why he chose not to give us a complete dissertation as to why He chose to do some of the things He did will not be known until we reach glory. He’ll be teaching us for all eternity. Again, God has told us that He is sovereign.

For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:8,9).

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past tracing out! (Romans 11:33).

Ultimately, God’s sovereignty is not enough for some. Because of their pride, and demanding that the Creator of the universe explain Himself to them, ultimately will be their undoing. As far as questioning God, you may enjoy reading Job. The book of Job will give you a lot of insight about God’s character and what He expects from us as His servants.

Quote[/b] ]So what have I missed?  Since you seem to be an expert on the OT, please tell me why the Israelites, in their wanderings, continually doubted the power of God even though they witnessed the Plagues and his other miracles.

My comment was in regard to your accusation that God created Satan to tempt Man. Again, Sheesh, that’s just ridiculous and please go back and read my post on Freewill and Probation and understand that Satan had the same choice as we do. I’m sorry you don’t understand the concept of Freewill and Probation. I felt I communicated those normative truths quite clearly. You may wish to research them on your own, which may in the end be more effective anyway.

As far as the Israelites and their wanderings, and why they doubted the power of God in the face of its awesome splendor, I can ask you the same question. His awesome splendor is all around you, yet you doubt and continually curse His existence with practically every word you post on this site. Maybe I can show a little more mercy and understanding towards you because you sure didn’t show them any. How easily you judge and condemn them for their ‘stupidity’ as you put it. The answer is, they’re human, just like you and I. We make mistakes and praise the Lord that He is so patient and slow to anger. Amen, I'm in awe when I think about his grace, or unmerited favor.  

Quote[/b] ]Exactly how am I being closed-minded?  Exactly how am I being prideful?  I HAVE studied the Bible.  Do you even know what the term "Empirical Evidence" is?  How are you relating a scientific term to something that cannot be proven?

You are being close-minded because you are obviously questioning and limiting an all powerful God. You are prideful because you expect God to reach down and hand you a sign as proof that He does exist, that He does love you, and that He died an excruciating death so you could be with Him in paradise forever. The reality is, He's given you the a sign. It's His special revelation to you...it's called the Bible. There are more secular historical references that validate the Bible than any other ancient literary work. All the proof is there, it's whether your willing to accept it and willing to make a choice to live for Him instead of yourself.

“Empirical Evidence” was in quotes because that is what YOU are seeking from him. Yes, empirical evidence deals with something that is verifiable and or provable by observation. Now, by humbling yourself before Him, He will reveal Himself to you, thus giving you all the “Empirical Evidence” you’ll ever need. The statement was meant to be both symbolic and literal.

Quote[/b] ]Romans 1:18-32
Um, last time I checked Paul was preaching to the Jew & Gentiles here, not to all men for all time.

That’s completely false. The Holy Spirit was inspiring Paul to write for the Jew and Gentile, period. It was not exclusively meant for their eyes only! We tend to place God in a box to fit our linear way of thinking. God inspired the writing of His word for all of us. Please go back and read my post on ‘Inspiration’ if you need more clarification here. God’s Word is eternal and absolute, and applicable yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Quote[/b] ]
Paul wrote to the Romans with the intention of explaining “What a Christian Believes”.  There were already believers in Rome but he wanted to make sure that they had a faith that was well-grounded and not subject to the whims of public opinion.

Found here: http://www.unionchurch.com/archive/060604.html

I’m glad to see that you are out there doing some research on the passage. But you are cut & pasting it out of context and twisting it to mean something it doesn’t. You can’t use Scripture to argue and say God’s word was meant for His people yesterday, but not His people today, or tomorrow. That’s just plain silliness and you’re conveniently ignoring the absolute, normative truths of Scripture.

Quote[/b] ]His argument was directed towards the Gentiles, the Jews in the congregation were loving it because Paul was very direct to the Gentiles:
He said that God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts and the Jews all said, "Amen!"
He said that God gave them over to degrading passions and the Jews all said, "Amen!"
He said that God gave them over to a depraved mind and the Jews all said, "Amen!"
Then he drops the bomb on the Jews when he says, "YOU are without excuse." And there is an uncomfortable silence in response. "What do you mean when you say that WE are without excuse?" Paul says, "You are without excuse because you have passed judgment upon the very sins which you yourself are committing."

The application here is for those who see themselves as being moral and upstanding and who look at themselves as being better than the pagan.

Found here: http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/rom02-01.html

Nothing really to debate here, Paul was simply stating the both the Jew and Gentile are in need of righteousness. I’m not sure what you were really trying to say with that particular snippet from the site. At best, you were again taking it out of context and twisting it to fit your own interpretation.

Quote[/b] ]Try moving on to the next chapter...

Or pointing your browser to: http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/rom02-01.html

Quote[/b] ]Rom 2:1 "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.”

Quote[/b] ]By starting with the word "therefore," Paul takes us back to the previous chapter where he has just delivered a blistering condemnation against the pagan world of his day.  Who are the judges of whom Paul spoke? They are RELIGIOUS people. And they are judged on the basis of their religion. Thus, the judgers are judged.  God will not have to search through His law looking for a basis to condemn you. He will be able to use the judgments that you will have passed on others.  You see, when you judge others, you are reflecting a standard of morality. And you will be found to be guilty of breaking your own standards. The truth is that we do not even live up to our own standards. Thus, the more you judge others, the more you pass judgment upon yourself.  THAT is what Paul's message was.

Let’s look at the King James Version for a moment.

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. (Rom. 2:1)

‘thou art inexcusable,’ is referring especially to the Jew.  Now, as Paul expresses himself in general terms, his admonition may reach those many masters (Jam. 3:1), of whatever nation or profession they are, that assume to themselves a power to censure, control, and condemn others.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? (Rom. 2:3)

The verse simply states that the judgment of God is inescapable on those who condemn others for the very sins they practice themselves. Their capacity to judge others does not absolve them from guilt. In other words, God is condemning those that judge others for the very sins they commit themselves. Make sense? I hope you can see where your interpretation of the passage is flawed.

Quote[/b] ] So,you weren't judging me, were you?

You can count on the fact when you spout false, distorted views and doctrine on this message board, there will be a child of God that judges and rebukes you for it. Yes, clearly I was judging and criticizing your posts and calling them out for what they are, your own subjective point of view not founded on the truths of Scripture.

Criticism is encouraged in the Scriptures. Now, criticism out of spite, bitterness, or hypocrisy is obviously wrong. However, criticism as a word is derived from the Greek word “krino” meaning “to judge.” A gift of the Spirit is “discernment of spirits” (1 Cor. 12:10). The Greek word translated here as “discernment” is “diakrisis,” which comes from the two Greek words: “dia” (through) and “krino” (to judge). In other words, the Holy Spirit gifts us so that we can make a judgment between two things such as right and wrong. The gift of “discernment of spirits” involves being able to supernaturally distinguish between those that serve the cause of evil and those that serve the cause of God.

Jesus also commands us to “judge with righteous judgment” (Jn. 7:24).

So was I judging according to Scripture? Yes.  Were you taking the Scripture stating not to judge out of context? Completely.

Seminary is starting back up for me so I will be lurking but not posting on the boards until next semester break. If you wish to discuss anything, please feel free to send me an email and I’ll get back in touch with you as soon as I can.

I’ll be praying that you continue to diligently seek the Lord with all your heart and hope you begin looking at Scripture objectively instead of coloring it with your own beliefs. Again, truly meditate on this verse and humble yourself before Him, asking Him to reveal Himself to you and I can promise you He will in a mighty way. God bless.

For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:8,9).

 

[Dark Virtue]

Thanks for the post watcher, I'll take your suggestions and ponder them.

Several times you have asked me to "humble" myself before a being that I don't believe in. How exactly do you propose that I do that? Everyone comes to the table with their own baggage so it's hard for anyone to be truly objective. I understand that you are worried that I view things negatively and I have to agree with you. At this point in my life, I am indeed negative when viewing things of a religious nature. There was a time when I looked at things differently, so I suppose I am giving the negative side equal time. I do however, believe I can be impartial and look at both sides objectively, but that is what got me where I am today. I don't believe you can look at the scriptures and find their "message" uness you look at them in a slanted light (ie humbling yourself before God and praying for understanding). I'll be honest, I don't think I can look at things like that and as I said, if one looks at the Bible with true impartiality one sides against it.

Believe it or not, I do actually do research on what I'm talking about, and not just from a non-theist standpoint. The problem here is that I can find dissenting views on just about EVERY subject from within the Christian community.

There is more that I would like to go into when I have more time. I hope you will have an opportunity to respond.

Either way, thank you for the insight you offered.

 

[Bowser]

Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Sep. 12 2004,4:44)]Believe it or not, I do actually do research on what I'm talking about, and not just from a non-theist standpoint.  The problem here is that I can find dissenting views on just about EVERY subject from within the Christian community.

Dark Virtue,

Please understand that because you can make valid arguments and others cannot doesn't make your views right.  I'm a huge Jeep fan, and I can tell you just about everything there is to know about them, but that doesn't necessarily make Jeep the greatest or best vehicle.  It just makes me knowledgeable of them, and that is all.

I do not have the understanding of the Bible that you and others have, but I can tell you I have a great love for whom I believe to be its Inspirer, and a great appreciation for the book itself.  Any arguments that I may have, and from those like me, should not be written off as "stupid."  Me having an interest and belief in the Bible and the ultimate writer of it in itself should earn the slightest bit of support that it may be true. I might be wrong, but because of this belief I have surely there can be the smallest amount of respect for it, just as I respect you and your beliefs.

Also, you don't have to physically see something to believe in it.

Quote[/b] ]Quite the contrary my friend, my views are quite rational and based on reason, yours NOT rational and based on faith.

Faith is not something that is unreasonable or irrational.  You have faith that when you turn the key to your car the engine will start - it's just a confidence that you have; and that's what faith is.

 

[Mr.Bill]

I am guessing he knows what faith is. He just choses to place his mental emphasis on reason instead, as do I. Having faith in something that seems illogical to the logical mind is not valid.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Ok, let’s take this from the top and see if I can give you a compelling response.

Quote[/b] ]The context of my statement was directed at your distorted views on the Holy Scriptures. They lack rationality, in other words, understanding. When I stated that your views lack reason, it wasn’t an attack on your capacity for analytic thought, rather it was pointing out your lack of good judgment in regard to the Scriptures, which would improve with more diligent study.

Actually, being rational requires being consistent with or based on reason, in other words, logical. I try to keep my arguments just that, rational: based on reason and logic. Yes, sometimes I am overly harsh and slanted in my opinions and I have no one else to blame for that. However, just because I question scriptures doesn’t mean I do so blindly and without logic. If my reasoning is truly irrational or illogical, then by all means call me on it.

Quote[/b] ]I don’t agree with your arguments because they in no way follow proper hermeneutics, exegesis, or textual criticism. You instead prefer arguments that are tainted with your own personal, subjective rhetoric and beliefs.

I am not classically trained in the interpretation of scripture, as you seem to be since you mentioned seminary. I am open to any criticism here. If my methodology is incorrect, point me in the right direction. As I have stated before, I do tend to taint my arguments based on my experiences and beliefs. However, the same can be said for the majority of people here. I understand that since I hold dissenting beliefs that you will hold me to a higher standard and that is understandable. I will do my best to keep my critiques balanced.

Quote[/b] ]Just because we can’t wrap our minds around something stated in the Scriptures does not mean that we throw it out the window. That’s great that you minored in World Philosophy in school, however, that holds no relevance whatsoever in studying the Word of God.

So what exactly IS relevant to studying the word of God?

Quote[/b] ]As for your ineptness and lack of understanding when it comes to the Bible, it is something that can be remedied and is in your power to change. In no way was I questioning your intelligence or lack thereof.

I daresay that I am just as adept and have as much understanding as your typical churchgoer. However great my ineptitude, I am always working towards a greater understanding.

Quote[/b] ]God created Satan just as He created the rest of the universe, us included. He created the universe to glorify Him.

And we were created to glorify Him too, correct? That is the reason we were created?

Quote[/b] ]Satan was created perfect, again, with the free will to choose obedience or rebellion.

Maybe we are using the word “perfect” in different degrees. If Satan was created perfectly why would he choose to side against God? Would it be correct to assume that if God is omniscient, that He created Satan knowing full well that he would fall?

Quote[/b] ]Now, the Bible does not specifically address the ‘why’ He created the universe in light of his foreknowledge of the fall. However, the battle is already over, and guess what, God wins.

Again, I just want to see if I have this right. God created Satan knowing that he would rise against Him as well as the fate of 1/3 of the angels He created. No, we don’t know the reason He did so, but suffice it to say that He knew there would be a rebellion before He created Satan, correct? The point I’ve tried to bring up is that there could have been another way to do this. God could have made His creation without pain and suffering, without Satan, without evil. However, as you say, God is sovereign and His way is the way it was done, end of story. But you and I, in our limited understand, can conceive of ways and means to create a universe without pain. So somehow, somewhere, there must be a good reason for all this evil, right?

Quote[/b] ]The whole of creation was redeemed when Christ died on the cross. You simply need to accept the atonement that was made and the propitiation or appeasment of God's wrath that was made for you. The Bible clearly addresses the ‘why’ some things have not been revealed.

Easier said than done, otherwise we wouldn’t be here. And my options seem to be limited considering my apostasy.

Quote[/b] ]You have to also keep in mind, the main message of Scripture is ‘God and humanity.’ Why he chose not to give us a complete dissertation as to why He chose to do some of the things He did will not be known until we reach glory. He’ll be teaching us for all eternity. Again, God has told us that He is sovereign.

You have to understand why this is difficult in terms of logic and reason. The Bible is holy because it says so. There’s not much to back that up other than having faith in the Book from the get go. And Faith is in direct opposition to logic and reason. If I’m missing something here, please point out where I’m wrong.

Quote[/b] ]Ultimately, God’s sovereignty is not enough for some. Because of their pride, and demanding that the Creator of the universe explain Himself to them, ultimately will be their undoing.

Pride may be one reason, but it is by far the only one. Some people just don’t have the Faith to work with. I don’t think it’s a matter of pride to request a logical, reasonable piece of evidence that is incontrovertible.

Quote[/b] ]As far as questioning God, you may enjoy reading Job. The book of Job will give you a lot of insight about God’s character and what He expects from us as His servants.

What I got out of Job is that God, although being omniscient and knowing what was truly in Job’s heart and how he would react in ANY situation, still chose to take a bet with Satan and put Job through needless misery. The only one that benefited was Satan.

Quote[/b] ]My comment was in regard to your accusation that God created Satan to tempt Man. Again, Sheesh, that’s just ridiculous

What is so ridiculous? God created everything with a purpose, did He not? Satan was created with a purpose too. If I am incorrect, then I would appreciate your take on why Satan was created by God. God meant and expected Man to be deceived and to Fall. Granted, the Bible doesn’t come out and say implicitly that Satan was the serpent, but I’m following an assumption that they are one and the same. God knew man would be tempted and since God did not stop it, then it seems to me that God expected it to happen. That being said, someone needed to tempt Eve, that being was Satan. God knew Satan would rebel and fall, thus leading to the temptation of Eve. And that starts the whole ball of wax going. What is wrong with that assertation?

Quote[/b] ]and please go back and read my post on Freewill and Probation and understand that Satan had the same choice as we do. I’m sorry you don’t understand the concept of Freewill and Probation. I felt I communicated those normative truths quite clearly. You may wish to research them on your own, which may in the end be more effective anyway.

I would understand them better if every Christian held to the same truths as you do, but there are different opinions on Freewill, Probation and just about every ideal that Christians hold dear. If Christianity can’t come to a single conclusion how are non-theists supposed to understand the different stances that are taken? If I missed a post in a different thread, by all means point me to them. And again, when you speak of “Truths” remember that not all Christians hold to the same truths. Are you, in turn, saying that your chosen path of Christianity is more correct than the others? If so, state the denomination and I will do my best to point out arguments from that perspective. It is truly difficult to pose a question knowing the other side already has differing opinions on their stances.

Quote[/b] ]As far as the Israelites and their wanderings, and why they doubted the power of God in the face of its awesome splendor, I can ask you the same question. His awesome splendor is all around you, yet you doubt and continually curse His existence with practically every word you post on this site. Maybe I can show a little more mercy and understanding towards you because you sure didn’t show them any. How easily you judge and condemn them for their ‘stupidity’ as you put it. The answer is, they’re human, just like you and I. We make mistakes and praise the Lord that He is so patient and slow to anger. Amen, I'm in awe when I think about his grace, or unmerited favor.

There is a huge, HUGE difference between me and the Israelites. They actually had a sign in front of them, remember the pillar of smoke by day and fire by night? God spoke to them, He was a fixture in their daily physical life. You are drawing far too many inferences here. I’m sorry, but I won’t give any quarter here. They were in a position that we are not. Come on, if I were there walking down a parted Red Sea I would be the staunchest of believers. They had that, they had the plagues, things they could see with all five senses and they STILL spat in God’s face. Do NOT draw a correlation between them and what we have today, it’s not the same thing. And let’s not forget the book of Revelations. Man will STILL part from God even after Christ’s reign of 1,000 years. WHY? What could possibly make Man part from God after living under Him for so long? These are underlying questions of a very serious nature.

Quote[/b] ]You are being close-minded because you are obviously questioning and limiting an all powerful God.

I admit, I question God. Sorry, but things aren’t as crystal clear for others as they are for you.

Quote[/b] ]You are prideful because you expect God to reach down and hand you a sign as proof that He does exist, that He does love you, and that He died an excruciating death so you could be with Him in paradise forever.

You are damn right I want proof. God gave me two choices. Believe in Him or face everlasting torment. Sorry, but I’d like to know what I’m getting myself into here. Which is worse? To question God hoping to come to some sort of true understanding or to believe in God, not necessarily because you believe it’s the right thing to do, but because it’s the SAFE thing to do?

Quote[/b] ]The reality is, He's given you the a sign. It's His special revelation to you...it's called the Bible. There are more secular historical references that validate the Bible than any other ancient literary work. All the proof is there, it's whether your willing to accept it and willing to make a choice to live for Him instead of yourself.

And there are plenty of secular references that Invalidate the Bible. For every book you show me FOR the Bible, I can show you one against. So references don’t really amount to much do they? Proof equates to evidence. If the evidence was so startling and incontrovertible then yes, I would be a moron not to accept it. But the simple fact of life is that it is not that clear or simple. If it were there would only be one denomination of Christianity.

Quote[/b] ]“Empirical Evidence” was in quotes because that is what YOU are seeking from him. Yes, empirical evidence deals with something that is verifiable and or provable by observation. Now, by humbling yourself before Him, He will reveal Himself to you, thus giving you all the “Empirical Evidence” you’ll ever need. The statement was meant to be both symbolic and literal.

How is humbling myself before God going to make the Bible any more clear? Are you saying that I am blind to God’s word because of my attitude? Is God supposed to whisper in my ear and everything will then become crystal?

Quote[/b] ]That’s completely false. The Holy Spirit was inspiring Paul to write for the Jew and Gentile, period. It was not exclusively meant for their eyes only! We tend to place God in a box to fit our linear way of thinking. God inspired the writing of His word for all of us. Please go back and read my post on ‘Inspiration’ if you need more clarification here. God’s Word is eternal and absolute, and applicable yesterday, today and tomorrow.

That is a HUGE inference on your part. That was a specific letter for a specific purpose. If you choose to read any more into it that is your choice.

Quote[/b] ]Paul wrote to the Romans with the intention of explaining “What a Christian Believes”. There were already believers in Rome but he wanted to make sure that they had a faith that was well-grounded and not subject to the whims of public opinion.
I’m glad to see that you are out there doing some research on the passage. But you are cut & pasting it out of context and twisting it to mean something it doesn’t. You can’t use Scripture to argue and say God’s word was meant for His people yesterday, but not His people today, or tomorrow. That’s just plain silliness and you’re conveniently ignoring the absolute, normative truths of Scripture.

I’ll be more careful which Christian sites I get my info from next time.

Quote[/b] ]Nothing really to debate here, Paul was simply stating the both the Jew and Gentile are in need of righteousness. I’m not sure what you were really trying to say with that particular snippet from the site. At best, you were again taking it out of context and twisting it to fit your own interpretation. [/quote

Well thanks for thinking my best intentions are always to twist things to my own ends.

You can count on the fact when you spout false, distorted views and doctrine on this message board, there will be a child of God that judges and rebukes you for it. Yes, clearly I was judging and criticizing your posts and calling them out for what they are, your own subjective point of view not founded on the truths of Scripture.

Keep in mind that when I criticize scripture I always try and use Christian sources to work from. I don’t see the point in pulling information from an atheistic author or website. I’m sorry, but how else am I supposed to see the Bible if not from my own background and experiences? I am not trying to have a discussion and rely on others for their opinion, I bring my own to the table, so yes, I’m going to be subjective at times. Are you being subjective in your defense?

Quote[/b] ]Criticism is encouraged in the Scriptures. Now, criticism out of spite, bitterness, or hypocrisy is obviously wrong. However, criticism as a word is derived from the Greek word “krino” meaning “to judge.” A gift of the Spirit is “discernment of spirits” (1 Cor. 12:10). The Greek word translated here as “discernment” is “diakrisis,” which comes from the two Greek words: “dia” (through) and “krino” (to judge). In other words, the Holy Spirit gifts us so that we can make a judgment between two things such as right and wrong. The gift of “discernment of spirits” involves being able to supernaturally distinguish between those that serve the cause of evil and those that serve the cause of God.

I admit that at times I will criticize out of spite or bitterness, but I will never bring hypocrisy to the table. It was Hypocrisy that led me to this website.

Quote[/b] ]Jesus also commands us to “judge with righteous judgment” (Jn. 7:24).
So was I judging according to Scripture? Yes. Were you taking the Scripture stating not to judge out of context? Completely.

As I have stated before, I always try and use Christian sources for these discussions and this time was no different. I wish I had saved the site I used, but I honestly didn’t. The information I used for Romans was from a campus Christian organization. So if anyone took it out of context they did. But, in the future, I will do a better job of citing my references.

Quote[/b] ]I’ll be praying that you continue to diligently seek the Lord with all your heart and hope you begin looking at Scripture objectively instead of coloring it with your own beliefs. Again, truly meditate on this verse and humble yourself before Him, asking Him to reveal Himself to you and I can promise you He will in a mighty way. God bless.

Thank you for your frank discussion, it’s appreciated. I’ll be honest though, it makes me cringe every time you suggest it is up to God to somehow magically reveal Himself to me and lift some veil from my eyes.