The Bible

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]Or are you saying to never, ever question the will of God?  If that were the case then there would never have been a Reforation movement would there?

I'll sometimes question the will of God in a moment of weakness. His will is perfect, and I only need to reflect on those verses from Isaiah posted above, and then I understand the error of my ways.

The Protestant Reformation had nothing whatsoever to do with questioning the will of God. Please explain your statement.

 

[Jim]

**Adds another notch to cynism**

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (Watcher @ Sep. 08 2004,11:40)]

Quote[/b] ]Or are you saying to never, ever question the will of God?  If that were the case then there would never have been a Reforation movement would there?

I'll sometimes question the will of God in a moment of weakness. His will is perfect, and I only need to reflect on those verses from Isaiah posted above, and then I understand the error of my ways.

The Protestant Reformation had nothing whatsoever to do with questioning the will of God. Please explain your statement.

He means that if no one questioned God's word, there would only be one religion. What would be the purpose of having more than one if they're all the same?

 

[Gandhi]

So if u were there and saw the sea part would u follow god no question or would u whine.

And even if there was a god can he really be perfect. Remember he created humans and we're messed up. Just look at me.

And we can 'see' atoms. Look up Scanning Tunneling
Microscope. It won a Nobel Prize.

 

[Jim]

I didn't say anything about the parting of the sea. If it did right in front of me, I would place more stock in God.

But maybe I got the wrong end of the stick? (Now see how you've screwed ME up

)

But the gist of the message was, maybe Christians believe because there are somethings they just can't explain. Just as people believe aliens and ghosts because they seem to be the only 'logical' answer.

Although I agree; A perfect God would probably make a much better job of the world and us.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Ah, but God, in his infinate wisdom created us with flaws!

Don't ask why, only God knows and he's not talking.

 

[Watcher]

God created us with free will to chose obedience. In order for one to have a true choice in obedience, there was a need for probation. In other words, the ability to choose disobedience was also present.

Before the fall, we were perfect in every way.

 

[Dark Virtue]

And you base this perfection on what?

Because I see nothing to back that statement up with.

If they were perfect, they would not have disobeyed now would they?

 

[Gandhi]

Quote[/b] ]Before the fall, we were perfect in every way.

Except we loved apples to much

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (Jim @ Sep. 08 2004,2:28)](Now see how you've screwed ME up

)

That emoticon gives me nightmares..

 

[Dark Virtue]

Is God really all He's cracked up to be?

I ask this question with the utmost sincerity.

If He was that great, why didn't the Israelites fall all over themselves in His presence. Why did they fear the Egpytians after all the plagues that God sent down? Why didn't they think God would feed or provide for them? It just doesn't make sense and I cannot for the life of me rationlize their behavior.

AND THEN, we have Christ's return to look forward to. 1,000 years with him isn't enough though, there will still be people that turn their back on him. What kind of rationale is behind THAT logic?

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]And you base this perfection on what?

Because I see nothing to back that statement up with.

If they were perfect, they would not have disobeyed now would they?

Adam and Eve were created morally free, sinless beings, with the ability to sin or not to sin. The temptation to our first parents was different from that of Satan in that their temptation came from without. In other words, Satan tempted them to sin. Though sin was solicited form without, Adam made a personal decision to disobey God, and he was held responsible for his sin (1 Tim. 2:14).

Now that being said, how an unholy impulse arose in the soul of a holy, sinless being is beyond our understanding. The only satisfactory explanation is that man fell by a free act of revolt against God. Satan acted on man's God-given desire for beauty, knowledge, and food (Gen 3:6). These desires are inherrently good, not evil, when they are used properly (1 Tim. 4:4; 1 Jn 2:16).

Satan called for the misuse of these drives against the direct command of God not to eat of the tree. The reality is that man freely chose to disobey God and to obey the deception of the evil one. The God-given desire for beauty, knowledge, and food became an instrument Satan used in causing man to rebel. What is more, the underlying ambition was to extend his relative sovereignty to become equal with God and not submit to the absolute sovereignty of God.

You then may ask, "How could a just God justly permit man to be tempted?"

God endowed man with the power of choice which enabled him to choose contrary to the known will of God, and the possession of this power seems to be the necessary condition of probation and moral development.

Man was not made an automaton who would live for the glory of God without any choice in the matter. His inclination was toward God, but since he had the power of contrary choice, he could be confirmed in this inclination only by deliberate choice in the presense of the possibility of choosing the opposite.

A period of probation was essential in order to test man's loyalty to God by obedience or disobedience to His command. Probation was necessary even though God foreknew it would result in the fall, and it revealed his benevolence in the promise of redemption immediately after the fall.

Excerpt from Henry Thiessen's "Lectures in Systematic Theology."

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]If He was that great, why didn't the Israelites fall all over themselves in His presence.  Why did they fear the Egpytians after all the plagues that God sent down?  Why didn't they think God would feed or provide for them?  It just doesn't make sense and I cannot for the life of me rationlize their behavior.

Those that understand God's sovereignty realize it could not have been any other way. The fact that we are currently in the 'time of the gentiles' is what allows you and I to currently be here having this discussion at this moment in time, with the ability to choose eternal life.

I can only imagine had the Jews accepted Jesus as the messiah how different things would have turned out. I'm blessed when I think about it.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Why does God need to "test" man in some sort of "probationary" period?

God is, well, God. That included omniscience. God already knew, long before Man's creation that he would fall. Right?

"Now that being said, how an unholy impulse arose in the soul of a holy, sinless being is beyond our understanding." According to your logic, it would be a safe assumption to say that God created Man IMPERFECTLY, with a flaw, knowing that he would make the wrong choice. Therefore, A&E could NOT have been perfect beings.

Thus continues the vicious cycle. Why did God create a flawed object knowing full well that would detest it so much He would want to wipe it out in a global flood? Why did God create beings knowing full well he would be condemning a portion of them to Hell. If God is omnibenevolent, wouldn't He want ALL His creation to ascend into Heaven? Yet He instead, creates Evil and allows it to run rampant throughout His creation. God truly does work in mysterious ways.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Watcher @ Sep. 08 2004,6:55)]

Quote[/b] ]If He was that great, why didn't the Israelites fall all over themselves in His presence.  Why did they fear the Egpytians after all the plagues that God sent down?  Why didn't they think God would feed or provide for them?  It just doesn't make sense and I cannot for the life of me rationlize their behavior.

Those that understand God's sovereignity realize it could not have been any other way. The fact that we are currently in the 'time of the gentiles' is what allows you and I to currently be here having this discussion at this moment in time, with the ability to choose eternal life.

I can only imagine had the Jews accepted Jesus as the messiah how different things would have turned out. I'm blessed when I think about it.

Well I don't understand God's sovereignty, so why don't you break it down for me?

Why did it have to happen that way?

You totally avoided the question and didn't answer it in any rational manner.

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]Why does God need to "test" man in some sort of "probationary" period?

Maybe you missed the two paragraphs before the one you're questioning. Here they are again:

God endowed man with the power of choice which enabled him to choose contrary to the known will of God, and the possession of this power seems to be the necessary condition of probation and moral development.

Man was not made an automaton who would live for the glory of God without any choice in the matter. His inclination was toward God, but since he had the power of contrary choice, he could be confirmed in this inclination only by deliberate choice in the presense of the possibility of choosing the opposite.

Quote[/b] ]God is, well, God.  That included omniscience.  God already knew, long before Man's creation that he would fall.  Right?

Right-o

Quote[/b] ]According to your logic, it would be a safe assumption to say that God created Man IMPERFECTLY, with a flaw, knowing that he would make the wrong choice.  Therefore, A&E could NOT have been perfect beings.

No, your assumption is not safe. Again, Man was not made an automaton who would live for the glory of God without any choice in the matter. His inclination was toward God, but since he had the power of contrary choice, he could be confirmed in this inclination only by deliberate choice in the presense of the possibility of choosing the opposite.

Quote[/b] ]Thus continues the vicious cycle.  Why did God create a flawed object knowing full well that would detest it so much He would want to wipe it out in a global flood?  Why did God create beings knowing full well he would be condemning a portion of them to Hell.  If God is omnibenevolent, wouldn't He want ALL His creation to ascend into Heaven?  Yet He instead, creates Evil and allows it to run rampant throughout His creation.  God truly does work in mysterious ways.

One piece of your statement is correct. God does wish that none should perish (Matt. 18:14). Again, God did not create a flawed object, rather, He created man with the ability to choose. In Satan's temptation itself was no power to make man sin. He had as much power to choose to obey God as to choose to disobey Him. This is the point I believe you are missing. There is no flaw or blemish in His design at all. The mere possibility of sinning alone has never made any man commit sin.

There is no question that deliberate resistance would have caused Satan to flee then as well as now (James 4:7). It is this possibility that shows God's benevolence. By resisting temptation, man's holy nature could have been confirmed in holy character.

You mention Omniscience. Certainly God new the fall would occur, and yet there was the provision made through Christ's death at the cross to bring us back into an eternal relationship with Him.

Whether we can wrap our minds around this concept is irrelevant. Our subjective points of view have no bearing whatsoever on a holy, just, and loving God who provided atonement and redemption from a moral and ethical condition clearly resulting from a choice we made freely.

You're right about another thing; God does work in mysterious ways.

 

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]Well I don't understand God's sovereignty, so why don't you break it down for me? Why did it have to happen that way?

You totally avoided the question and didn't answer it in any rational manner.

Clearly, my answer to your question is adequate and appropriate.

Sovereignty -

The sovereignty of God. What do we mean by this expression? We mean the supremacy of God, the kingship of God, the godhood of God. To say that God is sovereign is to declare that God is God. To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the Most High, doing according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, so that none can stay His hand or say unto Him what doest Thou? (Dan. 4:35). To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the Almighty, the Possessor of all power in heaven and earth, so that none can defeat His counsels, thwart His purpose, or resist His will (Ps. 115:3). To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is "The Governor among the nations" (Ps. 22:28), setting up kingdoms, overthrowing empires, and determining the course of dynasties as pleaseth Him best. To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the "Only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" (1 Tim. 6:15). Such is the God of the Bible.

Below is an excellent study on the Sovereignty of God.

The Sovereignty of God

When you ask why these things happened the way they did, God's sovereignty is clearly the answer.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Watcher @ Sep. 08 2004,8:30)]

Quote[/b] ]No, your assumption is not safe. Again, Man was not made an automaton who would live for the glory of God without any choice in the matter. His inclination was toward God, but since he had the power of contrary choice, he could be confirmed in this inclination only by deliberate choice in the presense of the possibility of choosing the opposite.

Man may not have been created without Free Will, an automaton as you say, but man WAS created to glorify God. The choice was made, by God, to allow His creation to decide whether or not to follow Him. But honestly, what choice is that? We either accept God or He damns us for eternity. Gee, nice choice. That's like me holding a gun to your head and telling you that you have two choices, hand over all your money to me or keep it, but I blow your brains out. Go ahead, you have Free Will to choose. That's not much of a choice now is it? Great use of Free Will.

Quote[/b] ]One piece of your statement is correct. God does wish that none should perish (Matt. 18:14). Again, God did not create a flawed object, rather, He created man with the ability to choose.

I must reiterate, it's not much of a choice, it's clearly slanted in God's favor. To truly give Man an honest choice, we shouldn't be faced with an eternity in Hell for not choosing Him.

Quote[/b] ]In Satan's temptation itself was no power to make man sin. He had as much power to choose to obey God as to choose to disobey Him.

I disagree. God created Satan to make A&E commit the Original Sin. This wasn't a surprise to God. As an omniscient being, He knew what He was doing when He created Satan. He knew before hand His creation would disobey. God knew man would fall, God knows who will choose Him and who won't. The answers are already there for God. So why the need to go through all this rigamarole? God made man to worship Him, but He only wants those who choose Him of their own Free Will. The rest He torments for eternity. Why not just cut to the chase and create automatons? No one would ever have had to suffer one iota.

Quote[/b] ]This is the point I believe you are missing. There is no flaw or blemish in His design at all. The mere possibility of sinning alone has never made any man commit sin.

In my previous post, the creation of a flawed being was attributed to Adam and Eve singularly, not the rest of us. Had A&E been created perfectly, as you attest, they would not have fallen victim to the snake's wiles. God, however, wanted man to fall, thus creating the Original Sin. In order for that to occur, His design had to be flawed. Again, remember, God is omniscient, so He created a flawed being who would be susceptible to the snake's charms and would most assuredly sin. That, in turn, sets the whole ball of wax rolling.

Quote[/b] ]There is no question that deliberate resistance would have caused Satan to flee then as well as now (James 4:7). It is this possibility that shows God's benevolence. By resisting temptation, man's holy nature could have been confirmed in holy character.

Satan was never meant to flee. God create him and evil for a specific purpose. Man also, was not created to resist temptation, but to fall for it.

Quote[/b] ]You mention Omniscience. Certainly God new the fall would occur, and yet there was the provision made through Christ's death at the cross to bring us back into an eternal relationship with Him.

Christ had to suffer because God expected Him to. Again, this was all God's choice, to create a world of corruption and have His son sacrificed for His flawed creation. That was His choice.

Quote[/b] ]Whether we can wrap our minds around this concept is irrelevant. Our subjective points of view have no bearing whatsoever on a holy, just, and loving God who provided atonement and redemption from a moral and ethical condition clearly resulting from a choice we made freely.

Disagree. This concept is MOST relevant. God CHOSE to create the idea of atonement and redemption. It wasn't necessary to begin with. Was this truly the best way to create beings to worship Him? No. Even with our finite minds we can conceive of better ways. We can conceive of ways that would allow beings to worship a god without any pain or suffering ever coming into the equation. The question is not whether God COULD have done it, the question is WHY.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Watcher @ Sep. 08 2004,8:40)]

Quote[/b] ]Well I don't understand God's sovereignty, so why don't you break it down for me? Why did it have to happen that way?

You totally avoided the question and didn't answer it in any rational manner.

Clearly, my answer to your question is adequate and appropriate.

Sovereignty -

The sovereignty of God. What do we mean by this expression? We mean the supremacy of God, the kingship of God, the godhood of God. To say that God is sovereign is to declare that God is God. To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the Most High, doing according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, so that none can stay His hand or say unto Him what doest Thou? (Dan. 4:35). To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the Almighty, the Possessor of all power in heaven and earth, so that none can defeat His counsels, thwart His purpose, or resist His will (Ps. 115:3). To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is "The Governor among the nations" (Ps. 22:28), setting up kingdoms, overthrowing empires, and determining the course of dynasties as pleaseth Him best. To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the "Only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" (1 Tim. 6:15). Such is the God of the Bible.

Below is an excellent study on the Sovereignty of God.

The Sovereignty of God

When you ask why these things happened the way they did, God's sovereignty is clearly the answer.

It's clearly the EASY answer.

Yes, I understand there are things that I will never know the answers to, but I refuse to sit idlely by and not grow or learn.

Sorry, but the sovereignty answer doesn't cut it for me. It may be good enough for you, but not for me.

 

[Arkanjel]

This is for DV, You asked earlier why God would test man in some sort of probationary period.

The reason God tests us is not to see if we will "pass" the test, it is for refinement. It is the same as refining any precious metal. You temper it with fire. The bible is full of references to refinement to better man and teach him how to be more "godly". That is why Jesus is described as the potter and we are described as the clay. He is molding us through challenges, tests, pain and suffering, good times, bad times. Its not a punishment, its tough love. People do the same to their own children. First you will tell a child not to touch the hot plate and he might listen for a few minutes or even a few days. After awhile that child will want to find out on his own if the plate is really hot. Then comes the burn. Now the child understands that which he has already been told, but he had to find it out for himself. We are ALL children in Gods eyes.

In Christ,
Gabriel