Dark Virtue
New Member
Good[b said:
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but have we gone through all this without answering the main question of how Judas died?
The Bible
- Thread starter PapaToad
- Start date
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but have we gone through all this without answering the main question of how Judas died?
Thaddius
Member
lol
yea, something like that.
He hung himself, fell off the rope and his body broke open and spilled on the ground.
Cory
yea, something like that.
He hung himself, fell off the rope and his body broke open and spilled on the ground.
Cory
Thaddius
Member
[b said:
What I meant about him being with them in the house, but not being counted yet as one of the twelve. (ie, he was not yet been promoted, but he was there with them)
[b said:
But isn't that what it is about? Showing that sins, no matter how bad can be atoned for by accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior? I guess I'm not understanding how Judas would not be included in Christ's plan of salvation just because he was the man who betrayed him.
[b said:
No, I don't care for lawyers...they are too argumentive.
Cory
Thaddius
Member
[b said:
Bill, its not about me being nice...I don't try to be mean. I just type what I think, and I don't try to direct anything at a person. If I have personally attacked either of you, I apologise because I try very hard not to do that. I may come off as offensive, and for that, I don't know what to say. I type thoughts. If we were to discuss this in person, I can speak a heck of a lot better than I type things out. (of course when someone is speaking you have tone and body language to guage as well) Here all you see are words and imply the context of how you think I am directing them. I do not mean to be hostile, angry, mean, offensive. I just...type. Well, I'll just keep working on it since it seems to be one of my weaker points.
On a side note, I don't think I've ever discarded anything you have said as nonsensical. I think most points made here are important as they are something interfering with someone accepting the Bible as truth. I rebute arguements and questions where I can, but that does not mean I do not value your thoughts or opinions. (no matter if I agree or disagree with them) I come from a place and family where you don't dance around things and worry about peoples feelings. I guess being PC isn't something I'm good at.
Cory
Dark Virtue
New Member
Now you KNOW that's just not going to cut it![b said:Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Aug. 28 2004,5:43)]lol
yea, something like that.
He hung himself, fell off the rope and his body broke open and spilled on the ground.
Cory
I'm not sure if you're joking or not, so try again, but this time with a little explanation attached.
Dark Virtue
New Member
[b said:
Ehhh, that's an AWFUL big stretch, and I don't think we can make that presumption based off the info we have in the Bible.
[b said:
We've lost our bearings on this one. We're not talking about Christ's forgiveness, but the timing of the issue. Christ said the twelve, which at this time includes Judas, would "sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel". Keep in mind that John doesn't write kindly of Judas, calling him the betrayer and a devil. Why would Christ allow this devil and betrayer such a prominent position? Forgiveness is one thing, but come on, Judas was the one that betrayed him. The underlying point here points to an inconsistencies in the time frame between the gospels.
Thaddius
Member
[b said:
I still don't see it. Just because John, a man, did not think highly of Judas, does not mean he was not worthy of salvation. What is the inconsistancy? Is it because Christ told Judas he would be a judge before he betrayed him? I'm going to need an explanation of what your talking about. The way I see and understand it, there is no issue. Judas was told he would be one of the twelve to sit as a judge; he betrayed Christ; he repented and was forgivin.
Are you making a point that because Judas betrayed Christ he was not worthy to be forgivin, or just that he was not worthy to be one of the twelve judges of the tribes?
Cory
Dark Virtue
New Member
Well let's look at where we started on this topic.
And your quote, "Is it because Christ told Judas he would be a judge before he betrayed him?"
This is what I was trying to get to. You broke it down succinctly enough, so we'll go with this:
Judas was told he would be one of the twelve to sit as a judge.
He then betrayed Christ.
He repented and was forgiven.
The problem I have with this is that Judas, along with the other apostles, was given a great gift, to sit as a judge over a tribe of Israel. He then did the unthinkable by betraying Christ. Now there are a few problems here. Taking things as they are, Christ knew Judas was going to betray him, yet he still offers him this gift. Now this is before the betrayal, so no repentance was made yet. In other words, why is Christ offering Judas this great thing after he knows he will betray him, yet before any repentance was made. Are you saying that just because Judas felt bad for betraying the Son of God to his death, that everything is suddenly peachy keen? This is akin to saying that one can live a life of evil and then saying, "Oh gee, I'm sorry God" on his deathbed and have God greet him with open arms in heaven. A convicted rapist can say he's sorry to the judge all he wants, but there still has to be punishment. Are you saying that if Hitler had felt remorse shortly before his death that he's sitting up in heaven right now? Is that truly what you believe?
And I am still waiting patiently for the answer to the main question...how did Judas die?
[b said:
And your quote, "Is it because Christ told Judas he would be a judge before he betrayed him?"
This is what I was trying to get to. You broke it down succinctly enough, so we'll go with this:
Judas was told he would be one of the twelve to sit as a judge.
He then betrayed Christ.
He repented and was forgiven.
The problem I have with this is that Judas, along with the other apostles, was given a great gift, to sit as a judge over a tribe of Israel. He then did the unthinkable by betraying Christ. Now there are a few problems here. Taking things as they are, Christ knew Judas was going to betray him, yet he still offers him this gift. Now this is before the betrayal, so no repentance was made yet. In other words, why is Christ offering Judas this great thing after he knows he will betray him, yet before any repentance was made. Are you saying that just because Judas felt bad for betraying the Son of God to his death, that everything is suddenly peachy keen? This is akin to saying that one can live a life of evil and then saying, "Oh gee, I'm sorry God" on his deathbed and have God greet him with open arms in heaven. A convicted rapist can say he's sorry to the judge all he wants, but there still has to be punishment. Are you saying that if Hitler had felt remorse shortly before his death that he's sitting up in heaven right now? Is that truly what you believe?
And I am still waiting patiently for the answer to the main question...how did Judas die?
Thaddius
Member
[b said:
Well, If Christ knew that Judas would be the one to betray Him, why would he not know that Judas would repent and accept salvation for it? Obviously Judas had a part in Gods plan, he was used as a tool to fulfill scripture.
[b said:
Remorse, no. Remorse does not save your soul. Truely repenting and asking forgiveness for your sins from Christ will. Your trying to limit the power of God to only those who do right, which is not even close to the case with what Christianity stands for. Can Hitler be in heaven? If he repented, accepted Christ and asked for forgiveness, then yes. I doubt a person with that much hatred would though, but it is a possibility.
[b said:
Matthew 27:5
[b said:
Acts 1:17-20
[b said:
It was also just before a Passover, I found this that might explain it a little better.
[b said:
You can find probably 100 opinions on this particular subject (it seems to be a favorite of atheist based apon my searches) but Matthew tells how he died. Acts tells what happened to his body, and does not specifically say that is how he died. Most implications seem to point that the verse in Acts was the account of Luke of what happened to the body after it had been hanging.
Cory
Dark Virtue
New Member
[b said:
Interesting. Let's check the scripture shall we?
Matthew 27:3 (NIV)
When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders.
Matthew 27 (KJV)
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Great, it's translated both ways. So let's look at the Amplified version...
Matthew 27 (AMP)
3When Judas, His betrayer, saw that [Jesus] was condemned, [Judas was [1] afflicted in mind and troubled for his former folly; and] with remorse [with little more than a selfish dread of the consequences] he brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders
If you look at the Amplified version, it appears that Judas was remorseful not because of what he did wrong, but because of the CONSEQUENCES. Doesn't sound like a truly repentant attitude to me.
[b said:
Unfortunately you are making a presumption based on feeling and not fact. Matthew tells how he died, but acts tells what happened to his body? Can't you just as easily say that Acts tells how he died too? "falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst". Come on now, if people were taking them down don't you think the bible would have said that? Who was taking him down, why? Sorry, but I don't buy it. Even if I were to accept your theory that both circumstances are true, there is the problem of the word HEADLONG. Headlong means with the head foremost. How did people lowering his body turn him upside down and then cause it to fall with such force that his body burst open? As you say, he was only dead for 24 hours or so. I don't think that allows enough time for the stomach to distend to the point of explosion. And even if the time were longer and he bloated up like a pinata, there is no explanation for gravity to turn him upside down. If the rope broke and he dropped, he would have landed feet first, especially since all the fluid in his body would be sitting at his feet. It just doesn't add up.
Thaddius
Member
A bit technical arn't we, picking and choosing what versions of the Bible we use for particular arguements?
-- King James
Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
-- New King James
Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
-- American Standard
Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, who betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
-- Living Bible
Matthew 27:3 About that time Judas, who betrayed him, when he saw that Jesus had been condemned to die, changed his mind and deeply regretted what he had done, and brought back the money to the chief priests and other Jewish leaders.
-- Revised Standard
Matthew 27:3 When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders,
-- Simple English
Matthew 27:3 Judas, the one who turned against Jesus, saw that Jesus had been condemned. Judas changed his mind and brought back the 30 silver coins to the most important priests and the Jewish elders.
-- Transliterated, Pronounceable
Matthew 27:3 To'te idoo'n Iou'das ho paradidou's auto'n ho'tikatekri'thee, metameleethei's e'strepsen ta' tria'konta argu'riatoi's archiereu'sin kai' presbute'rois
-- Transliterated, Unaccented
Matthew 27:3 Tote idon Ioudas ho paradidous auton hotikatekrithe, metameletheis estrepsen ta triakonta arguriatois archiereusin kai presbuterois
-- New American Standard
Matthew 27:3 Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Matthew 27:3 When he found that Jesus had been condemned, then Judas, his betrayer, was filled with remorse and took the thirty silver pieces back to the chief priests and elders
-- New American with Apocrypha
Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, his betrayer, seeing that Jesus had been condemned, deeply regretted what he had done. He returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
-- New Revised Standard with Apocrypha
Matthew 27:3 When Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus {Gk [he]} was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders.
Here is what the Strong Definition of the word used was:
Strong's Ref. # 3338
Romanized metamellomai
Pronounced met-am-el'-lom-ahee
from GSN3326 and the middle voice of GSN3199; to care afterwards, i.e. regret:
KJV--repent (self).
The word used in Greek does not even mean remorse, therefore that interpretation is inaccurate in the literal sense. As for it adding in that his remorse was for his punishment and not for what he had done, don't you think that assumption is a bit of a stretch, since we do not know what his feeling were?
99.9% of the time I only use the KJV when I quote from the Bible. On occasion I will add in other versions based on the validity of what is being said.
As for his body falling headfirst, thats making an assumption that he was just cut loose to fall to the ground. We really have no relevant ground to stand on with how it played out. The Bible simply states the fact the body fell headfirst and burst when it hit the ground. Anything beyond that on either side is making assumptions about it.
Here it is in Greek. You can look it up for yourself if you don't believe me.
-- Transliterated, Unaccented
Acts 1:18 Houtos men ounektesato chorion ek misthou tes adikias kai prenesgenomenos elakesen mesos kai exechuthe panta tasplangchna autou.
I'll stick with my belief that they are of two different things being accounted for. One is his death, the other of what happened afterwards.
Cory
-- King James
Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
-- New King James
Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
-- American Standard
Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, who betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
-- Living Bible
Matthew 27:3 About that time Judas, who betrayed him, when he saw that Jesus had been condemned to die, changed his mind and deeply regretted what he had done, and brought back the money to the chief priests and other Jewish leaders.
-- Revised Standard
Matthew 27:3 When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders,
-- Simple English
Matthew 27:3 Judas, the one who turned against Jesus, saw that Jesus had been condemned. Judas changed his mind and brought back the 30 silver coins to the most important priests and the Jewish elders.
-- Transliterated, Pronounceable
Matthew 27:3 To'te idoo'n Iou'das ho paradidou's auto'n ho'tikatekri'thee, metameleethei's e'strepsen ta' tria'konta argu'riatoi's archiereu'sin kai' presbute'rois
-- Transliterated, Unaccented
Matthew 27:3 Tote idon Ioudas ho paradidous auton hotikatekrithe, metameletheis estrepsen ta triakonta arguriatois archiereusin kai presbuterois
-- New American Standard
Matthew 27:3 Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Matthew 27:3 When he found that Jesus had been condemned, then Judas, his betrayer, was filled with remorse and took the thirty silver pieces back to the chief priests and elders
-- New American with Apocrypha
Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, his betrayer, seeing that Jesus had been condemned, deeply regretted what he had done. He returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
-- New Revised Standard with Apocrypha
Matthew 27:3 When Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus {Gk [he]} was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders.
Here is what the Strong Definition of the word used was:
Strong's Ref. # 3338
Romanized metamellomai
Pronounced met-am-el'-lom-ahee
from GSN3326 and the middle voice of GSN3199; to care afterwards, i.e. regret:
KJV--repent (self).
The word used in Greek does not even mean remorse, therefore that interpretation is inaccurate in the literal sense. As for it adding in that his remorse was for his punishment and not for what he had done, don't you think that assumption is a bit of a stretch, since we do not know what his feeling were?
99.9% of the time I only use the KJV when I quote from the Bible. On occasion I will add in other versions based on the validity of what is being said.
As for his body falling headfirst, thats making an assumption that he was just cut loose to fall to the ground. We really have no relevant ground to stand on with how it played out. The Bible simply states the fact the body fell headfirst and burst when it hit the ground. Anything beyond that on either side is making assumptions about it.
Here it is in Greek. You can look it up for yourself if you don't believe me.
-- Transliterated, Unaccented
Acts 1:18 Houtos men ounektesato chorion ek misthou tes adikias kai prenesgenomenos elakesen mesos kai exechuthe panta tasplangchna autou.
I'll stick with my belief that they are of two different things being accounted for. One is his death, the other of what happened afterwards.
Cory
Dark Virtue
New Member
So basically you are assuming that both stories are true.
There's no real basis to believe that, other than noting that both stories can't be true. So, assuming that neither one is false, you believe that they are BOTH true.
There's not solid logical foundation for that, but hey, it's your opinion. One that, with the little we have to go on, can't be proven or disproven. Hmm, sounds like a recurring theme in Christianity
There's still more we haven't gotten to, like the prophetic portions and Judas' gut bust representing the old/new wineskins, but I think we've beaten this dead horse enough.
Shall we agree to disagree on grounds of not enough info and move on? There's more fun ahead after all.
There's no real basis to believe that, other than noting that both stories can't be true. So, assuming that neither one is false, you believe that they are BOTH true.
There's not solid logical foundation for that, but hey, it's your opinion. One that, with the little we have to go on, can't be proven or disproven. Hmm, sounds like a recurring theme in Christianity
There's still more we haven't gotten to, like the prophetic portions and Judas' gut bust representing the old/new wineskins, but I think we've beaten this dead horse enough.
Shall we agree to disagree on grounds of not enough info and move on? There's more fun ahead after all.
Thaddius
Member
[b said:
Agreed.
Cory
Dark Virtue
New Member
Good, now let me work up a new topic for dissemination.
Dark Virtue
New Member
Sorry for my absence, I had to take the Texans to an undefeated season and win the Superbowl in Madden 2k5
So let's take this up again, here are a few that run along the same vein.
How old was Ahaziah?
2 Kings 8:26 says "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."
2 Chronicles 22:2 says "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."
How many children did Michal have?
2 Samuel 6:23 says "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death"
2 Samuel 21:8 says "But the king took...the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul"
How many horsemen?
2 Samuel 8:3-4 says "David smote also Hadadezer...and took from him...seven hundred horsemen..."
1 Chronicles 18:3-4 says "David smote Hadarezer...and took from him...seven thousand horsemen..."
How many stalls?
1 Kings 4:26 says "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots..."
2 Chronicles 9:25 says "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots..."
When did Nebuzaradan come into Jerusalem?
2 Kings 25:8 says "And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month...Nebuzaradan...came...unto Jerusalem"
Jeremiah 52:12 says "...in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month...came Nebuzaradan...into Jerusalem"
What was the census count?
2 Samuel 24:9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.
1 Chronicles 21:5 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to David: In all Israel there were one million one hundred thousand men who could handle a sword, including four hundred and seventy thousand in Judah.
How much did David pay?
2 Samuel 24:24 But the king replied to Araunah, "No, I insist on paying you for it. I will not sacrifice to the LORD my God burnt offerings that cost me nothing."
So David bought the threshing floor and the oxen and paid fifty shekels of silver for them.
1 Chronicles 21:24 But King David replied to Araunah, "No, I insist on paying the full price. I will not take for the LORD what is yours, or sacrifice a burnt offering that costs me nothing."
25 So David paid Araunah six hundred shekels of gold for the site.
How many supervisors did Solomon have?
1 Kings 5:16 as well as thirty-three hundred [1] foremen who supervised the project and directed the workmen.
2 Chronicles 2:2 He conscripted seventy thousand men as carriers and eighty thousand as stonecutters in the hills and thirty-six hundred as foremen over them.
How tall were the pillars?
1KI 7:15-22 The two pillars were 18 cubits high.
2CH 3:15-17 They were 35 cubits high.
How many baths were there?
1 Kings 7:26 Solomon's "molten sea" held 2000 "baths" (1 bath = about 8 gallons).
2 Chronicles 4:5 It held 3000 "baths."
How much gold was brought back?
1 Kings 9:28 420 talents of gold were brought back from Ophir.
2 Chronicles 8:18 450 talents of gold were brought back from Ophir.
When did Baasha die?
1 Kings 16:6-8 Baasha died in the 26th year of King Asa's reign.
2 Chronicles 16:1 Baasha built a city in the 36th year of King Asa's reign.
How old was Ahaziah?
2 Kings 8:25-26 Ahaziah was 22 years old when he began his reign.
2 Chronicles 22:2 He was 42 when he began his reign.
ER 2:3-64 Why make a list and not make it exhaustive?
So let's take this up again, here are a few that run along the same vein.
How old was Ahaziah?
2 Kings 8:26 says "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."
2 Chronicles 22:2 says "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."
How many children did Michal have?
2 Samuel 6:23 says "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death"
2 Samuel 21:8 says "But the king took...the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul"
How many horsemen?
2 Samuel 8:3-4 says "David smote also Hadadezer...and took from him...seven hundred horsemen..."
1 Chronicles 18:3-4 says "David smote Hadarezer...and took from him...seven thousand horsemen..."
How many stalls?
1 Kings 4:26 says "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots..."
2 Chronicles 9:25 says "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots..."
When did Nebuzaradan come into Jerusalem?
2 Kings 25:8 says "And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month...Nebuzaradan...came...unto Jerusalem"
Jeremiah 52:12 says "...in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month...came Nebuzaradan...into Jerusalem"
What was the census count?
2 Samuel 24:9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.
1 Chronicles 21:5 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to David: In all Israel there were one million one hundred thousand men who could handle a sword, including four hundred and seventy thousand in Judah.
How much did David pay?
2 Samuel 24:24 But the king replied to Araunah, "No, I insist on paying you for it. I will not sacrifice to the LORD my God burnt offerings that cost me nothing."
So David bought the threshing floor and the oxen and paid fifty shekels of silver for them.
1 Chronicles 21:24 But King David replied to Araunah, "No, I insist on paying the full price. I will not take for the LORD what is yours, or sacrifice a burnt offering that costs me nothing."
25 So David paid Araunah six hundred shekels of gold for the site.
How many supervisors did Solomon have?
1 Kings 5:16 as well as thirty-three hundred [1] foremen who supervised the project and directed the workmen.
2 Chronicles 2:2 He conscripted seventy thousand men as carriers and eighty thousand as stonecutters in the hills and thirty-six hundred as foremen over them.
How tall were the pillars?
1KI 7:15-22 The two pillars were 18 cubits high.
2CH 3:15-17 They were 35 cubits high.
How many baths were there?
1 Kings 7:26 Solomon's "molten sea" held 2000 "baths" (1 bath = about 8 gallons).
2 Chronicles 4:5 It held 3000 "baths."
How much gold was brought back?
1 Kings 9:28 420 talents of gold were brought back from Ophir.
2 Chronicles 8:18 450 talents of gold were brought back from Ophir.
When did Baasha die?
1 Kings 16:6-8 Baasha died in the 26th year of King Asa's reign.
2 Chronicles 16:1 Baasha built a city in the 36th year of King Asa's reign.
How old was Ahaziah?
2 Kings 8:25-26 Ahaziah was 22 years old when he began his reign.
2 Chronicles 22:2 He was 42 when he began his reign.
ER 2:3-64 Why make a list and not make it exhaustive?
CCGR
Member
The correct age of Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem is 22. 2 Kings 8:17 tells us that Ahaziah's father Joram ben Ahab was thirty-two when he became king and he died eight years later, at the age of forty. Therefore, Ahaziah could not have been forty-two at the time of his father's death at age forty." (Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, page. 206-207.)
http://www.carm.org/diff/2Kings8_26.htm (copiest error, does not affect doctrine of Bible)
How many children did Michal, the daughter of Saul have?
Is there a contradiction?
RESPONSE:
Before being returned to David (2 Samuel 3:14), Michal gave birth to five sons to Adriel, the son of Brazillai (2 Samuel 21:8). However, on account of her conduct, it appears that the Lord shut up her womb, and she bore no children to David. The writer's comment in 2 Samuel 6:23 would seem specific to her barren nature before David, as the same writer shortly thereafter mentions the five sons bore to Adriel.
There is no contradiction.
http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/ata20020203.htm
How many Horsemen?
. Obviously there are two types of numbering in the preceding passages differing in the multiples of 10. According to John Wesley (the founder of the Methodist Church) :
"Seven hundred - Or, seven hundred companies of horsemen, that is, in all seven thousand; as it is 1 Chronicles 18:4, there being ten in each company, and each ten having a ruler or captain." (John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible: 2 Samuel 8:4).
2 Samuel therefore speaks of 700 companies, 10 horsemen per company while 2 Chronicles speaks of the actual number of the horsemen. This is a usual occurrence in the Old Testament when dealing with numbers
http://thebereans.net/contra-r08.shtml
How many stalls?
Firstly, there is no contradiction of how many horsemen there were. Both 1 Kings 4 and 2 Chronicles 9 state, "...and twelve thousand horsemen..."
Concerning the number of stalls, the questioner did not read the text closely enough. It would seem that in 1 Kings, we are told how many horses Solomon had for his chariots --- 40,000 horses. In 2 Chronicles, we are told how many stalls he had in which to keep his horses and chariots --- 4,000 stalls. Thus, he had 4,000 stalls, 10 horses in each stall, totalling 40,000 horses.
There is no contradiction.
http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/ata20010513.htm
http://www.carm.org/diff/2Kings8_26.htm (copiest error, does not affect doctrine of Bible)
How many children did Michal, the daughter of Saul have?
Is there a contradiction?
RESPONSE:
Before being returned to David (2 Samuel 3:14), Michal gave birth to five sons to Adriel, the son of Brazillai (2 Samuel 21:8). However, on account of her conduct, it appears that the Lord shut up her womb, and she bore no children to David. The writer's comment in 2 Samuel 6:23 would seem specific to her barren nature before David, as the same writer shortly thereafter mentions the five sons bore to Adriel.
There is no contradiction.
http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/ata20020203.htm
How many Horsemen?
. Obviously there are two types of numbering in the preceding passages differing in the multiples of 10. According to John Wesley (the founder of the Methodist Church) :
"Seven hundred - Or, seven hundred companies of horsemen, that is, in all seven thousand; as it is 1 Chronicles 18:4, there being ten in each company, and each ten having a ruler or captain." (John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible: 2 Samuel 8:4).
2 Samuel therefore speaks of 700 companies, 10 horsemen per company while 2 Chronicles speaks of the actual number of the horsemen. This is a usual occurrence in the Old Testament when dealing with numbers
http://thebereans.net/contra-r08.shtml
How many stalls?
Firstly, there is no contradiction of how many horsemen there were. Both 1 Kings 4 and 2 Chronicles 9 state, "...and twelve thousand horsemen..."
Concerning the number of stalls, the questioner did not read the text closely enough. It would seem that in 1 Kings, we are told how many horses Solomon had for his chariots --- 40,000 horses. In 2 Chronicles, we are told how many stalls he had in which to keep his horses and chariots --- 4,000 stalls. Thus, he had 4,000 stalls, 10 horses in each stall, totalling 40,000 horses.
There is no contradiction.
http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/ata20010513.htm
CCGR
Member
How tall were the pillars?
>1KI 7:15-22 The two pillars were 18 cubits high.
>2CH 3:15-17 They were 35 cubits high.
This would seem to be a pretty blatant mistake to make (getting the measurement wrong by twice). Let's consider the wording carefully. The I Kings passage says that "he cast two pillars of brass, of 18 cubits high APIECE..." The book of Kings further indicates at the time of the destruction of the temple (II Kings 25:16) that "the height of ONE pillar was 18 cubits..." the identical language is found in Jeremiah 52:20-21. II Chronicles uses slightly different language: "he made before the house TWO pillars of thirty and five cubits high..." Perhaps the author added them together to come up with a combined height. Since they were molten, formed from clay casts in the ground, perhaps they originally were formed and measured end to end (I Kings 7:46).
http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/answered/answered.htm
How many baths?
Either copiest error (check the link) http://www.carm.org/diff/1Kings7_26.htm
or not all the baths were filled
Did Nebuzaradan come to Jerusalem on the seventh day as the writer of 2 Kings indicated, or, as Jeremiah wrote, on the tenth day? There are at least two potential explanations for the seeming discrepancy. First, Keil and Delitzsch allow for the possibility that “This difference might be reconciled, as proposed by earlier commentators, on the assumption that the burning of the city lasted several days, commencing on the seventh and ending on the tenth” (1982, p. 514). In other words, one writer may be discussing Nebuzaradan’s activities from their beginning, while the other writer is discussing those same activities from their conclusion.
This solution receives support from an in-depth examination of the original language of the texts. The phrasing of Jeremiah 52:12 and 2 Kings 25:8 is very similar in the Hebrew—with one important exception. In Jeremiah 52:12, the last part of the verse states literally that Nebuzaradan came “in [to] Jerusalem.” The Hebrew preposition “in,” which conveys the idea of being “inside” or “within” (cf. Judges 1:21, Zechariah 12:6 [KJV/ASV], 1 Kings 15:4, et al.), is not present in 2 Kings 25:8. It therefore is quite possible that Nebuzaradan came to Jerusalem on the seventh day, but actually went inside the holy city on the tenth day.
Second, the three-day difference in the two accounts may be a copyist’s error.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr1998/r&r9812c.htm
When did Baasha die?
1KI 16:6-8 Baasha died in the 26th year of King Asa's reign.
2CH 16:1 Baasha built a city in the 36th year of King Asa's reign.
In Jewish tradition there was no provision for a queen. Here, the queen-mother, Maachah, takes on an important role when her son Abijam dies after reigning only 3 years. She adopts one of his sons Asa (I Kings 15:10) apparently as a figure-head and actually reigns herself for the first 10 years (see II Chronicles 14:2). After this period, Asa wins a great battle, is encouraged by the prophet in chapter 15, and takes over. He cleans the idols out of Judah AND Benjamin (as noted above) and removes the idolatrous Maachah as queen (I Kings 15:13 and II Chronicles 15:16). Likely this ten-year reign of the Queen mother alongside Asa is the reason for the ten-year discrepancy in dating the Baasha event by how long Asa had ruled.
http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/answered/answered.htm
>1KI 7:15-22 The two pillars were 18 cubits high.
>2CH 3:15-17 They were 35 cubits high.
This would seem to be a pretty blatant mistake to make (getting the measurement wrong by twice). Let's consider the wording carefully. The I Kings passage says that "he cast two pillars of brass, of 18 cubits high APIECE..." The book of Kings further indicates at the time of the destruction of the temple (II Kings 25:16) that "the height of ONE pillar was 18 cubits..." the identical language is found in Jeremiah 52:20-21. II Chronicles uses slightly different language: "he made before the house TWO pillars of thirty and five cubits high..." Perhaps the author added them together to come up with a combined height. Since they were molten, formed from clay casts in the ground, perhaps they originally were formed and measured end to end (I Kings 7:46).
http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/answered/answered.htm
How many baths?
Either copiest error (check the link) http://www.carm.org/diff/1Kings7_26.htm
or not all the baths were filled
Did Nebuzaradan come to Jerusalem on the seventh day as the writer of 2 Kings indicated, or, as Jeremiah wrote, on the tenth day? There are at least two potential explanations for the seeming discrepancy. First, Keil and Delitzsch allow for the possibility that “This difference might be reconciled, as proposed by earlier commentators, on the assumption that the burning of the city lasted several days, commencing on the seventh and ending on the tenth” (1982, p. 514). In other words, one writer may be discussing Nebuzaradan’s activities from their beginning, while the other writer is discussing those same activities from their conclusion.
This solution receives support from an in-depth examination of the original language of the texts. The phrasing of Jeremiah 52:12 and 2 Kings 25:8 is very similar in the Hebrew—with one important exception. In Jeremiah 52:12, the last part of the verse states literally that Nebuzaradan came “in [to] Jerusalem.” The Hebrew preposition “in,” which conveys the idea of being “inside” or “within” (cf. Judges 1:21, Zechariah 12:6 [KJV/ASV], 1 Kings 15:4, et al.), is not present in 2 Kings 25:8. It therefore is quite possible that Nebuzaradan came to Jerusalem on the seventh day, but actually went inside the holy city on the tenth day.
Second, the three-day difference in the two accounts may be a copyist’s error.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr1998/r&r9812c.htm
When did Baasha die?
1KI 16:6-8 Baasha died in the 26th year of King Asa's reign.
2CH 16:1 Baasha built a city in the 36th year of King Asa's reign.
In Jewish tradition there was no provision for a queen. Here, the queen-mother, Maachah, takes on an important role when her son Abijam dies after reigning only 3 years. She adopts one of his sons Asa (I Kings 15:10) apparently as a figure-head and actually reigns herself for the first 10 years (see II Chronicles 14:2). After this period, Asa wins a great battle, is encouraged by the prophet in chapter 15, and takes over. He cleans the idols out of Judah AND Benjamin (as noted above) and removes the idolatrous Maachah as queen (I Kings 15:13 and II Chronicles 15:16). Likely this ten-year reign of the Queen mother alongside Asa is the reason for the ten-year discrepancy in dating the Baasha event by how long Asa had ruled.
http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/answered/answered.htm
Dark Virtue
New Member
http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/answered/answered.htm[/quote[b said:
Not exactly a smoking gun. PERHAPS it's simply an error in the Bible?
I'm sorry, but this doesn't hold water. No one would logically describe two separate columns that way.
[b said:
"A tired copyist could easily mistake one for another."
Logical answer. But that would mean that there is at LEAST one error in the book that you hold in your hand. Wouldn't it be safe to assume there could be more?
[b said:
May, might, maybe. Not a solid answer for an apparent discrepancy. I'm sorry, but we have to stick to a high standard here. If we don't, then we open everything up to assumptions.
[b said:
Likely it is another copyist error, hmm? The Hebrew numbers for 20 and 30 do look a lot like. Either way, the discrepancy still remains.
Since you brought up Asa...
1KI 15:14 Asa did not remove the high places.
2CH 14:2-3 He did remove them.
So this leads to the big question...
Why are "copyist" errors in the Bible? Why would God allow translations of His one and only book to contain errors?
Dark Virtue
New Member
That's it? No one is going to ponder the existence of "copyist" errors in the bible or answer why God would allow translations of His one and only book to contain errors?