The Bible

[b said:
Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Aug. 27 2004,2:22)]Adn Yes i think the bible is without error, Mis translations, sure, error no,
Eh?

You can't have it both ways.

It is either INERRANT or it contains errors. Errors include mistranslations.

I know, I know, you're interested to see the cards I'm holding, but it is very important we lay the groundwork first.

My point in asking if the Bible is the perfect, inerrant word of God is simple. If I can show that there are indeed, mistranslations and copyist errors in God's word, then it cannot be INERRANT. If it is not inerrant, it cannot be the perfect word of God.

So before we begin, please explain to me what you feel is an allowable error in the word of God.
 
WOOT! A good old fashion face off! Errors me the text and language God presented it was perfect! Mans translations could be incorrect . Like the thought of the unborn in the other forum here you have two proclaimed Christian with two completely different views. You and I study the same biblical text, but our perceptions are different.

So do I think its errored no, do I think you and I could be thoroughly confused, YUP! I could accept that better. I have been known to mis a concept every now and then.

But I Believe that God personal told me, that this is his word, stop arguing about and start living as the Man I made you to be.

I can not make it more clear DV!~
 
You are totally missing my point, so let me be succint.

If the Bible is God's word, why would he allow ANY errors in his book?

You've basically said that no matter what I show you, it couldn't possibly change the inherant message.

So why should I even bother?
 
The Bible is a fascinating piece of work. In reality it is really a message in hologram form. Wha? a hologram? Yes with a hologram you can remove a piece of it, but still get almost all of the information. Its a 3d kinda thing. The Bible is the same way If pieces are removed the main message is still intact. Different books complement and affirm others. To add icing to the cake, Jesus affirmed to us through his words the stories that are the most important ones. Therefore Jesus was validating the books or manuscripts that had been written before he was born in human form. He was kinda like the big string that tied up all the loose ends.
Nifty eh?

In Christ,
Gabriel
 
Cop out
DV I was so hoping to research you discrepancies. But are you going to sdo the very thing you accuse others of. Every Christian here what’s to see this volume of proof you have. But you are leaking out. Do show me. I don’t care.

But it makes me sad. I answered your question, but you did not like my answers. You want God to explain him self to you. Bottom line.
Once again HE did not allow errors
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (MontrezAnthony @ Aug. 27 2004,5:22)]Cop out
DV I was so hoping to research you discrepancies. But  are you going to sdo the very thing you accuse others of. Every Christian here what’s to see this volume of proof you have. But you are leaking out. Do show me. I don’t care.

But it makes me sad. I answered your question, but you did not like my answers. You want God to explain him self to you. Bottom line.
Once again HE did not allow errors
Calm down, calm down.

Here's a list that has been compiled.

The quality of the discrepencies vary.  There are plenty I don't agree with, but that's the most complete list I can find.

If you would like to discuss one, here's a good one:

How did Judas die?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Matthew 27

5So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Acts 1

18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.

For extra credit, who bought the Potter's field?

Ah, it would also help if you use just the Bible to answer the question. Don't make suppositions or assumptions that are baseless.
 
Thank you. It might atke me a little while but I will answer them the best I can with what the Lord provides me.
 
While you study, keep a few things in mind regarding this story:

According to Matthew 26:15, the chief priests "weighed out thirty pieces of silver" to give to Judas.  This was most likely not the case.  In a Roman province minted coins would have been used.  "Pieces of silver" would have gone out of circulation long before the story takes place.

Matthew 27:7 says the chief priests bought the field, but Acts 1:18 says Judas bought the field.  How could Judas have bought the field if he had already thrown the silver down in front of the priests after he tried to give it back?

Matthew 27:5 and Acts 1:18 define conflicting ways Judas died, but according to the apostle Paul, neither is true. Paul says Jesus appeared to "the twelve" after his resurrection. Mark 14:20 makes it clear that Judas was one of the twelve.

The Potter's Field was renamed the Field of Blood.  But is that because Matthew says it was purchased with blood money (Matthew 27:6-8) or because Acts says it was from the bloody mess caused by Judas' bursting open (Acts 1:18-19)?

Jesus, when on his way to Jerusalem, for the last time, said, speaking to the twelve disciples, Judas being present, that they, the disciples should thereafter sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.  Yet, more than a year before this journey, John says that Christ said, speaking to the twelve disciples: "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil." And John adds: "He spake of Judas Iscariot, for it was he that should betray him."  Why did Christ a year afterward, tell Judas that he should sit on a throne and judge one of the tribes of Israel?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]How did Judas die?

Quote
Matthew 27

5So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.


Quote
Acts 1

18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Matthew 27:5 tells us that Judas died by hanging himself. Acts 1:18 tells us that Judas fell onto some rocks and his body burst open. Is there a contradiction here?

No. Both accounts are true. Apparently Judas first hanged himself. Then, at some point, the rope either broke or loosened so that his body slipped from it and fell to the rocks below and burst open. (Some have suggested that Judas didn't do a very good job of tying the noose.) Neither account alone is complete. Taken together, we have a full picture of what happened to Judas.

Dude, that list from infidels is about as good an arguement as carbon dating is for evolution. For a list of resourses that expand apon supposed contradictions, please check HERE

Why does every atheist or "free thinker" (funny you use atheistic resourses but won't call yourself an atheist) think that stuff from infidels is new news?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You can't have it both ways.

It is either INERRANT or it contains errors. Errors include mistranslations.

I know, I know, you're interested to see the cards I'm holding, but it is very important we lay the groundwork first.

Just because of mistranslations does not mean the Bible is errent or contradictory. Your grasping at straws here. The english language does not even hold a candle to some of the language around the world in its ability to describe or speak about things we do in english. Take the word "love" in english. In hebrew you have ahabah, hesed, raham for love. In greek, you have eros, philia, and agape. So when you translate 6 different words to english you get 1 word, and in some cases what is a mistranslation of meaning. Does that mean the Bible is wrong? I don't think so.

The hand of cards you hold can't beat a royal flush so you might as well fold now.
tounge.gif


Cory
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]According to Matthew 26:15, the chief priests "weighed out thirty pieces of silver" to give to Judas.  This was most likely not the case.  In a Roman province minted coins would have been used.  "Pieces of silver" would have gone out of circulation long before the story takes place.

Your assuming that pieces of silver is not coins.  30 shekels of silver would most likely be what they were.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Matthew 27:7 says the chief priests bought the field, but Acts 1:18 says Judas bought the field.  How could Judas have bought the field if he had already thrown the silver down in front of the priests after he tried to give it back?

This might help explain this part of it to you.  

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]THE TWO PURCHASES.
  For there were two. One by "the chief priests", recorded in Matthew 27:6; and the other by Judas Iscariot, recorded in Acts 1:18. The proofs are as follows:


The purchase of Judas was made some time before that of the chief priests; for there would have been no time to arrange and carry this out between the betrayal and the condemnation.
  The purchase of the chief priests was made after Judas had returned the money.


What the chief priests bought was "a field" (Greek agros).
  What Judas had acquired (see 3, below) was what in English we call "Place" (Greek chorion = a farm, or small property).

  The two are quite distinct, and the difference is preserved both in the Greek text and in the Syriac version. (See note 1 below).


The verbs also are different. In Matthew 27:7 the verbs is agorazo = to buy in the open market (from agora = a market-place); while, in Acts 1:18, the verb is ktaomai = to acquire possession of (see Luke 18:12; 21:19. Acts 22:28), and is rendered "provide" in Matthew 10:9. Its noun, ktema = a possession (occurs Matthew 19:22. Mark 10:22. Acts 2:45; 5:1).

How and when Judas had become possessed of this "place" we are not told in so many words; but we are left in no doubt, from the plain statement in John 12:6 that "he was a thief, and had the bag". The "place" was bought with this stolen money, "the reward (or wages) of iniquity". This is a Hebrew idiom (like our English "money ill-got"), used for money obtained unrighteousness (Appendix 128. VII. 1; compare Numbers 22:7. 2Peter 2:15).This stolen money is wrongly assumed to be the same as the "thirty pieces of silver"

The two places had different names. The "field" purchased by the chief priests was originally known as "the potter's field", but was afterward called "agros haimatos" = the field of blood; that is to say, a field bought with the price of blood ("blood" being part by Figure of Speech Metonymy (of the Subject), Appendix 6, for murder, or blood-guiltiness).
  The "possession" which Judas had acquired bore an Aramaic name, "Hakal dema' " (see Appendix 94 (III.) 3), which is transliterated Akeldama, or according to some Akeldamach, or Hacheldamach = "place (Greek chorion) of blood": a similar meaning but from a different reason: videlicet, Judas's suicide. It is thus shown that there is no discrepancy between Matthew 27:6 - 8 and Acts 1: 18, 19.

Taken from
HERE

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Matthew 27:5 and Acts 1:18 define conflicting ways Judas died, but according to the apostle Paul, neither is true. Paul says Jesus appeared to "the twelve" after his resurrection. Mark 14:20 makes it clear that Judas was one of the twelve.

Judas was replaced by Stephen afterwards.  He could be refering to Stephen, or the fact that they were just called "the twelve" based on what they were known as during the ministry. (speculation here on my part)

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The Potter's Field was renamed the Field of Blood.  But is that because Matthew says it was purchased with blood money (Matthew 27:6-8) or because Acts says it was from the bloody mess caused by Judas' bursting open (Acts 1:18-19)?

Does it matter where the field got its name?  read above for an answer to that being bought with blood money.  Most likely it was because of the bloody mess. (again, speculation)

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Jesus, when on his way to Jerusalem, for the last time, said, speaking to the twelve disciples, Judas being present, that they, the disciples should thereafter sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.  Yet, more than a year before this journey, John says that Christ said, speaking to the twelve disciples: "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil." And John adds: "He spake of Judas Iscariot, for it was he that should betray him."  Why did Christ a year afterward, tell Judas that he should sit on a throne and judge one of the tribes of Israel?

Matthew 27:3-5

Funny thing about repenting is that Christ forgives.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

I hope that I answered those satisfactory. Some of it is speculation on my part, but its the best I could come up with.

Cory
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Aug. 28 2004,2:22)]Why does every atheist or "free thinker" (funny you use atheistic resourses but won't call yourself an atheist) think that stuff from infidels is new news?
I don't understand why you get so worked up about this, but if you don't like freethinker, try agnostic.  Atheism is too shallow.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Dude, that list from infidels is about as good an arguement as carbon dating is for evolution. For a list of resourses that expand apon supposed contradictions, please check HERE

DUDE, at least read what I wrote before you try and go for my jugular. At no time did I state that was THE definitive list. I believe I also said it wasn't perfect. This discussion won't be over with one list, I prefer to start gradually and work my way up, so chill out, there's more to come.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Why does every atheist or "free thinker" (funny you use atheistic resourses but won't call yourself an atheist) think that stuff from infidels is new news?

I also use Christian resources, does that mean I should call myself Christian. Get over yourself. I will use any resource that is available to me, what exactly is wrong with that? I don't see you using JUST the Bible, now do I? Please extend the same courtesy that is offered to you.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Just because of mistranslations does not mean the Bible is errent or contradictory. Your grasping at straws here. The english language does not even hold a candle to some of the language around the world in its ability to describe or speak about things we do in english. Take the word "love" in english. In hebrew you have ahabah, hesed, raham for love. In greek, you have eros, philia, and agape. So when you translate 6 different words to english you get 1 word, and in some cases what is a mistranslation of meaning. Does that mean the Bible is wrong? I don't think so.

You're just making the point that I have been making all along. You can reference my posts on hell as an example. Please note that I entered this discussion by pointing out there are mistranslations and contradictions in the Bible, that was pretty much all I said. Again, it's building a foundation for our discussion. That's why I chose to start with the infidels list. It's a great example of silly arguments mixed in with better ones. Trust me, there's a method to my madness.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The hand of cards you hold can't beat a royal flush so you might as well fold now.

That's funny since you don't know the extent of my hand. I hope you don't play poker.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Vanaze @ Aug. 28 2004,3:43)]And agnostic is too ignorant.
You're resorting to invective now? Sheesh man..

Why is agnosticism ignorant? I find it highly ironic that you believe that.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The quality of the discrepencies vary. There are plenty I don't agree with, but that's the most complete list I can find.

Thats a quote from you. No where did you state that the list is not the definative list, you claim it is the most complete list you can find. You also did not say it was not perfect. If your working your way up from this most complete list then I'm not sure what your expecting to bring forward that will just wow us all.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
You're just making the point that I have been making all along. You can reference my posts on hell as an example. Please note that I entered this discussion by pointing out there are mistranslations and contradictions in the Bible, that was pretty much all I said.

You said that mistranslations and contradictions are errors. We have disagreed on that point. I'm not sure what your getting at by agreeing with what I am saying.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I also use Christian resources, does that mean I should call myself Christian. Get over yourself. I will use any resource that is available to me, what exactly is wrong with that? I don't see you using JUST the Bible, now do I? Please extend the same courtesy that is offered to you.

Fair enough, I can live with that.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]That's funny since you don't know the extent of my hand. I hope you don't play poker.

Nope, can't say that I do. You brought up the cards reference, I was just playing on that. But I doubt there is much you can bring here that will surprise me.

Cory
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Aug. 28 2004,2:58)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]According to Matthew 26:15, the chief priests "weighed out thirty pieces of silver" to give to Judas. This was most likely not the case. In a Roman province minted coins would have been used. "Pieces of silver" would have gone out of circulation long before the story takes place.

Your assuming that pieces of silver is not coins. 30 shekels of silver would most likely be what they were.

And that's an assumption on your part. Please, check your ASSumptions at the door. At the very least, if you're going to make guesses, make logical ones. Note my reference to the area being under Roman rule. The Romans would have put their money system into effect, thereby utilizing minted coins.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Matthew 27:7 says the chief priests bought the field, but Acts 1:18 says Judas bought the field. How could Judas have bought the field if he had already thrown the silver down in front of the priests after he tried to give it back?

This might help explain this part of it to you.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]THE TWO PURCHASES.
For there were two. One by "the chief priests", recorded in Matthew 27:6; and the other by Judas Iscariot, recorded in Acts 1:18. The proofs are as follows:

The purchase of Judas was made some time before that of the chief priests; for there would have been no time to arrange and carry this out between the betrayal and the condemnation.
The purchase of the chief priests was made after Judas had returned the money.

I'm sorry, but where is the proof of this? Just because there are two views stated here doesn't mean that both of them happened. This is simply an assumption with nothing to back it up.

What the chief priests bought was "a field" (Greek agros).
What Judas had acquired (see 3, below) was what in English we call "Place" (Greek chorion = a farm, or small property).

The two are quite distinct, and the difference is preserved both in the Greek text and in the Syriac version. (See note 1 below).

Please note that this could very well be a simple translation error. After all, how many words are there ot describe "love" and "hate". Again, this is a presumption.

The verbs also are different. In Matthew 27:7 the verbs is agorazo = to buy in the open market (from agora = a market-place); while, in Acts 1:18, the verb is ktaomai = to acquire possession of (see Luke 18:12; 21:19. Acts 22:28), and is rendered "provide" in Matthew 10:9. Its noun, ktema = a possession (occurs Matthew 19:22. Mark 10:22. Acts 2:45; 5:1).

Keep this in mind, "The chief priests did not want to put the money paid for the betrayal of Jesus back into the temple treasury as it was "blood money." So they bought an "agros:" a field to bury strangers in. Because blood money was used to purchase the field it was called "the field [agros] of blood." This is different than the property [chorion] that Judas purchased himself referred to in Acts Chapter 1.

How and when Judas had become possessed of this "place" we are not told in so many words; but we are left in no doubt, from the plain statement in John 12:6 that "he was a thief, and had the bag". The "place" was bought with this stolen money, "the reward (or wages) of iniquity". This is a Hebrew idiom (like our English "money ill-got"), used for money obtained unrighteousness (Appendix 128. VII. 1; compare Numbers 22:7. 2Peter 2:15).This stolen money is wrongly assumed to be the same as the "thirty pieces of silver"

Interesting take, but "the reward (or wages) of iniquity could just as easily represent the "thirty pieces of silver". This defense might mean a little more if John actually talked about the death of Judas, but he does not. This is the inherant problem with the Gospels, they all contradict each other, so it's very difficult to try and corroborate them.

The two places had different names. The "field" purchased by the chief priests was originally known as "the potter's field", but was afterward called "agros haimatos" = the field of blood; that is to say, a field bought with the price of blood ("blood" being part by Figure of Speech Metonymy (of the Subject), Appendix 6, for murder, or blood-guiltiness).
The "possession" which Judas had acquired bore an Aramaic name, "Hakal dema' " (see Appendix 94 (III.) 3), which is transliterated Akeldama, or according to some Akeldamach, or Hacheldamach = "place (Greek chorion) of blood": a similar meaning but from a different reason: videlicet, Judas's suicide. It is thus shown that there is no discrepancy between Matthew 27:6 - 8 and Acts 1: 18, 19.

I've looked at three different apologetic sources and each one seems to come up with a different answer, so obviously, it's not as clear cut as one would like. The conclusion that you are trying to portray is Acts describes a completely different event in the life of Judas, and is therefore not a contradiction. Now that's a stretch.

Taken from
HERE

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Matthew 27:5 and Acts 1:18 define conflicting ways Judas died, but according to the apostle Paul, neither is true. Paul says Jesus appeared to "the twelve" after his resurrection. Mark 14:20 makes it clear that Judas was one of the twelve.

Judas was replaced by Stephen afterwards. He could be refering to Stephen, or the fact that they were just called "the twelve" based on what they were known as during the ministry. (speculation here on my part)

Can you point out when Stephen replaced Judas in conjunction to Christ's appearance to the "twelve"? Again, this is complicated as it is, let's leave speculation out of this if we can.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The Potter's Field was renamed the Field of Blood. But is that because Matthew says it was purchased with blood money (Matthew 27:6-8) or because Acts says it was from the bloody mess caused by Judas' bursting open (Acts 1:18-19)?

Does it matter where the field got its name? read above for an answer to that being bought with blood money. Most likely it was because of the bloody mess. (again, speculation)

It does matter because some defenses claim they are two different fields altogether. And your bit of speculation 9the bloody mess) is generally ruled out in favor of desecration.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Jesus, when on his way to Jerusalem, for the last time, said, speaking to the twelve disciples, Judas being present, that they, the disciples should thereafter sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Yet, more than a year before this journey, John says that Christ said, speaking to the twelve disciples: "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil." And John adds: "He spake of Judas Iscariot, for it was he that should betray him." Why did Christ a year afterward, tell Judas that he should sit on a throne and judge one of the tribes of Israel?

Matthew 27:3-5
Funny thing about repenting is that Christ forgives.

Granted, but don't you think that if Christ was going to forgive his betrayer he would have played it up a little? Now YOU are the one grasping for straws. Keep in mind that John typically describes Judas as the betrayer, was that done here? The easiest answer isn't always the correct one.

I hope that I answered those satisfactory. Some of it is speculation on my part, but its the best I could come up with.

Cory

Sheesh, this topic is going to get complicated
smile.gif
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Thats a quote from you.  No where did you state that the list is not the definative list, you claim it is the most complete list you can find.  You also did not say it was not perfect.  If your working your way up from this most complete list then I'm not sure what your expecting to bring forward that will just wow us all.

SHEESH, you're brutal.  I was hoping a little inference would be used, I guess not.  I promise in the future I will be more direct.  My point in saying there were items that I disagreed with should have been enough to let you know there were some that were incorrect.  Why else would I disagree with them?  When I said it was the most complete list I could find, I meant that it was the largest, most inclusive list I could find.  By showing a large list that contained items that I disagreed with was to show that we could both find some common ground.  I wasn't trying to be deceptive in the slightest and I resent the implication.  I'm sorry if I can't show you two verses and WOW you.  At this point I could show you a red apple and you'd argue that it wasn't a Washington State apple.  Exactly how have I been uncivil to you to garner your wrath?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You said that mistranslations and contradictions are errors.  We have disagreed on that point.  I'm not sure what your getting at by agreeing with what I am saying.

EGADS, let's not both agree on something, the world may implode!

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Nope, can't say that I do.  You brought up the cards reference, I was just playing on that.  But I doubt there is much you can bring here that will surprise me.

I'm not trying to suprise you.  My purpose was to have a friendly debate.  I'm not trying to tattoo a pentagram on your chest.  I have been nothing but civil to you and you have been nothing but acerbic to me from the get go.  Face it, there are those of us that have an opinion that is different from yours.

One more thing...are you hung up on the FreeThinker thing because you think that it is a backhanded insult to you? In other words calling you a sheep for having blind faith? As I have already pointed out, I use it because of it's dictionary defintion, "one who doubts or denies religious dogma". I personally doubt religious dogma. If I thought athiest fit me better I would use it, if I thought agnostic fit me better, I would use that.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]At the very least, if you're going to make guesses, make logical ones. Note my reference to the area being under Roman rule. The Romans would have put their money system into effect, thereby utilizing minted coins.

It was not a guess. Please see HERE

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Judas 30 Pieces of Silver - Matthew 26:14-15

The silver shekels and half-shekels of Tyre were minted from c. 126 B.C. until c. 57 A.D. Any coin minted prior to 32 A.D., may have circulated in Jerusalem during Jesus' lifetime.

The shekel was a monitary unit and in circulation Much like the British pound is still in circulation even though they have the new Euro.

The part about Judas buying the land, both sides draw conclusions. I don't think we are going to agree here. I see it one way, you see it another. You are assuming that after he was given 30 shekels he ran down, bought the land and was able to betray Christ all in same night, I do not agree with that. You have to remember, the time frame here is pretty tight, and right before a Sabbath. There is not much room here to wiggle around in.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Can you point out when Stephen replaced Judas in conjunction to Christ's appearance to the "twelve"? Again, this is complicated as it is, let's leave speculation out of this if we can.

Stephen was called as his replacement in acts, which was after the appearance. I do not know if Stephen was with the apostles before he was named the replacement. You most likely will not find a difinitave answer to this question outside of what the Bible states.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Granted, but don't you think that if Christ was going to forgive his betrayer he would have played it up a little? Now YOU are the one grasping for straws. Keep in mind that John typically describes Judas as the betrayer, was that done here? The easiest answer isn't always the correct one.

Did Christ play anything up a little? The thing about him going to the grave was the fact that he attoned for everyone's sin, even Judas Iscariot. He was a betrayer, but that does not mean that he could not be saved. The only sin that is unsaveable is blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, which was not the case here. It is not an easy answer, it is the straight forward answer of what the point of the New Testament is. Doesn't it seem fitting that the first person to be redeemed would be the betrayer who repented?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Sheesh, this topic is going to get complicated

It always does.
wink.gif


Cory
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Exactly how have I been uncivil to you to garner your wrath?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I have been nothing but civil to you and you have been nothing but acerbic to me from the get go.

meh, you havn't.  I don't mean to come across that way. I just type the way I think and it doesn't always come out eloquently.  When I get into a rush, I type to the point and leave out civility I guess.  Sorry that I come across that way. I'll try to not be so direct.

Cory
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]It was not a guess. Please see HERE

Quote
Judas 30 Pieces of Silver - Matthew 26:14-15

The silver shekels and half-shekels of Tyre were minted from c. 126 B.C. until c. 57 A.D. Any coin minted prior to 32 A.D., may have circulated in Jerusalem during Jesus' lifetime.

The shekel was a monitary unit and in circulation Much like the British pound is still in circulation even though they have the new Euro.

That site (which is very cool btw) says this, "Shekels of Tyre were the only currency accepted at the Jerusalem Temple and are the most likely coinage with which Judas was paid for the betrayal of Christ Jesus' and Simon Peter's Tax from the Fish's Mouth."

Again, an assumption. But keep this in mind, the temple priests were the ones GIVING money to Judas, not the other way around. One could just as easily assume that since this was considered "blood money" that they would not pay Judas in the shekels they used, but in Roman coin.

The part about Judas buying the land, both sides draw conclusions. I don't think we are going to agree here. I see it one way, you see it another. You are assuming that after he was given 30 shekels he ran down, bought the land and was able to betray Christ all in same night, I do not agree with that. You have to remember, the time frame here is pretty tight, and right before a Sabbath. There is not much room here to wiggle around in.

I'm just going off of what the bible says, and sometimes, it isn't clear cut enough.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Stephen was called as his replacement in acts, which was after the appearance. I do not know if Stephen was with the apostles before he was named the replacement. You most likely will not find a difinitave answer to this question outside of what the Bible states.

But didn't you just answer it? Stephen was called as a replacement AFTER Christ's appearance.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Did Christ play anything up a little? The thing about him going to the grave was the fact that he attoned for everyone's sin, even Judas Iscariot. He was a betrayer, but that does not mean that he could not be saved. The only sin that is unsaveable is blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, which was not the case here. It is not an easy answer, it is the straight forward answer of what the point of the New Testament is. Doesn't it seem fitting that the first person to be redeemed would be the betrayer who repented?

Sheesh, are you a lawyer?
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PLAYING UP should have been rephrased and that was an error on my part. My point was that if Christ was making a point of redeeming everyone's sins that he would underscore the inclusion of his betrayer, Judas Iscariot?
 
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