The Bible vs a Biology Textbook

[tjguitarz]

I came upon a revelation a few days ago and I thought it would be good to share it with you all.

Bible-believing Jesus-loving God-fearing Christians can NOT believe in evolution. Here is why...

In the beginning, God created everything, and it was good. There was no sin. And because there was no sin, there was no death. Evolution needs death as a stepping stone from one advancement to the next. Man was made, and THEN there was sin and death. It wasn't the other way around. To believe in both the Bible and your biology textbook puts you at war with yourself.

Note: I am speaking of macroevolution, not microevolution. Microevolution has been documented and proven. Macroevolution, the growth from ape to human, has not.

 

[Durruck]

Not really. A lot of problems were introduced into the world because of man's sin. It wasn't until the fall that death was a factor, and therefor, no "need" for evolution.

Er, let me back up. You can't believe in Creation and Macroevolution at the same time (how could man both be created by God and descend from apes, which came from toads, which came from fish, which came from amoebas, which came from rain on a rock?)

But microevolution - changes within a species - is quite legit, and neither confirms nor contraindicates anything within the Bible. Well, perhaps that God can do whatever He wants.

 

[Atown]

i believe in evolution. Think of it this way, When God made Adam, did Adam have a navel? no, because God didt grow Adam, he just said, your alive go do ur thing. However when Cain and abel were born, they had navels, because obviously they were born. Yes we did evolve and now we have navels.

 

[Icthus]

<blink...blink...blink>

 

[Hescominsoon]

how do you know adam did not have a navel atown? You have evidence of this? Sounds like conjecture to me and conjecture is not a justification for a theory.

 

[tjguitarz]

A lot of problems were introduced into the world because of man's sin. It wasn't until the fall that death was a factor, and therefor, no "need" for evolution.

You've got me a little confused, Durruck. Are you suggesting there was death before sin?

 

[Atown]

You have evidence of this? Sounds like conjecture to me and conjecture is not a justification for a theory.

basically thats evolution ^_^

 

[Stc95]

basically thats evolution ^_^

Thats not evolution. Thats saying that God created Adam and his sons were birthed. Thats not evolution at all. Evolution is 'millions of years' thats just God being fun.

Also Evolution isnt just about belly buttons. Its a whole lot more than that. How can you believe in evolution just by that one thing alone. If you believe in evolution than why did He create Adam first? If evolution is true shouldnt He have made prehistoric soup first? Which then grew into microscopic life, and then into a fish, which washed up on the shore and decided to walk, which then grew hair, and then created the cities we live in.

And heres a tough question: Which is truth, the Bible or a textbook?

 

[ppar3566]

I came upon a revelation a few days ago and I thought it would be good to share it with you all.

Bible-believing Jesus-loving God-fearing Christians can NOT believe in evolution. Here is why...

In the beginning, God created everything, and it was good. There was no sin. And because there was no sin, there was no death. Evolution needs death as a stepping stone from one advancement to the next. Man was made, and THEN there was sin and death. It wasn't the other way around. To believe in both the Bible and your biology textbook puts you at war with yourself.

Note: I am speaking of macroevolution, not microevolution. Microevolution has been documented and proven. Macroevolution, the growth from ape to human, has not.

??? I am not saying you are wrong or anything like that, but your claims are, I think to confident and strongly worded in relation to what we know. My problems with this are as follows:

1. It seems somewhat arrogant to say you can't be a Christian unless you believe exactly what I believe. I know many committed and devoted Christians who have studied who hold the bible as the perfect source of our beliefs and believe in evolution. In Australia those Christians who do not believe in evolution are quickly decreasing even among so-called fundamentalists such as the AOG church.
I think that focusing on this issue in such a inflammatory way is unnecessarily divisive (see the first 1 Corinthians for examples of similar divisive issues that are not central to our belief). I mean if it is something that is the pinnacle of our faith that is at stake (i.e. God made the world, or Christ died for our sins) I see why strong rhetoric is needed but with evolution it is not. No Christian that I know who believes in evolution suggests that God was not the Author and Creator of all that was made.
2. The syllogistic logic (i.e. because a=b and b=c a must equal c) you have used here has several possible flaws. Firstly evolution, requires differences in procreation success not death as a driving force. Secondly, it rests on a western American fundamentalist interpretation of Gen 1:1 to 2:3 that is not adhered to by all Christians around the world. Thirdly, your comments make a distinction between micro and macro evolution that is perhaps unsubstantiated as yet.
The reason I have a problem with this is that these comments seek to stifle debate rather than encourage it. I know myself and STC have had this debate before, and while we never agreed with each other, I came out respecting his view much more. Secondly, I have seen too many times Christians who were never allowed to take evolution seriously and were encouraged to see it as directly from the devil have crises of faith during college that they never needed to have if they had been allowed to consider evolution as part of Gods plan (myself included). I had multiple confrontations with non-Christian people during my college years that confused me and distanced them for what reason?

 

[tjguitarz]

Everything you said.

Eek. I guess I should clear some things up. I’m not being a “if you don’t believe this then you aren’t a Christian.” I am rather pointing out what the Bible says and what the theory of evolution says. If my logic is flawed, I'm going to need better clarification.

The Bible tells us sin brought death into this world, and there was no death on earth until the first sin. Adam was the author of the original sin. So if you believe that there was death before sin, and therefore death before Adam, then I'm not sure how you can fully believe God’s word.

Now yes, you are right that evolution requires changes and mutations in genetic code after sexual reproduction, but that would be over a long period of time… billions of years. There are no creatures billions of years old, and as such they had to die. This conflicts with the timeline of the Bible and with the Biblical truth of no death before sin.

If my logic is flawed, please explain.

Also, I am not trying to get into a creationism verses evolution debate, but rather can a true Bible-believing Christian believe in evolution? After looking at the origins if death and sin, I don't think so, but I'm not a mature Christian yet. If there's anything wrong with what I am saying, point it out.

 

[ppar3566]

Eek. I guess I should clear some things up. I’m not being a “if you don’t believe this then you aren’t a Christian.” I am rather pointing out what the Bible says and what the theory of evolution says. If my logic is flawed, I'm going to need better clarification.

The Bible tells us sin brought death into this world, and there was no death on earth until the first sin. Adam was the author of the original sin. So if you believe that there was death before sin, and therefore death before Adam, then you don’t fully believe God’s word.

Now yes, you are right that evolution requires changes and mutations in genetic code after sexual reproduction, but that would be over a long period of time… billions of years. There are no creatures billions of years old, and as such they had to die. This conflicts with the timeline of the Bible and with the Biblical truth of no death before sin.

If my logic is flawed, please explain.

Also, I am not trying to get into a creationism verses evolution debate, but rather can a true Bible-believing Christian believe in evolution? After looking at the origins if death and sin, I think not.

The type of argument you are using is, I think, an excellent one that is based on rational logic rather than emotional name calling or slippery slope type arguments (i.e. if we believe in evolution we are saying God is a lier). But ithink the type of logic you have used does not apply here necessarily. Let me try and explain, your rational as I read it is as follows:
1. Before the fall there was no death and nothing was in existence for millions of years (a=b)
2. Evolution requires millions of years for it to work (b=c)
3. Therefore the bible and evolution are in conflict and as the bible is the word of God evolution can not be true. (a must equal c).
This logic is excellent and at the centre of much of what we know in modern maths but it requires one important assumption to be met for it to hold true. That is that a and b (i.e. point 1 and 2 above) must hold true under all circumstance. An example might be someone says the following:
1. When it rains my roof gets wet.
2. My roof is wet.
3. Therefore it is raining.
Such logic only holds if your roof cannot get wet any other way (which obviously it can i.e. your wife is washing off the leaves on the roof).

The same rules apply to your logic in that it only holds true if your intepretation of Gen 1:1 to 2:3 is correct (i.e. a literal translation is the correct reading of this passage). However, many Christians do not agree with your interpretation here and there is debate over whether the original Jewish recipients would have read it this way either.
( for an example see http://www.tonywatkins.co.uk/science...ng_genesis.htm).

Hope this makes sense. I am not saying you are wrong, just that there are other valid understandings of the way God made the world that do not put evolution and the bible in conflict and if this is the case the logic you have used above does not hold.

 

[tjguitarz]

Everything you said in your previous post, #11

The only thing I am looking at with my original post is death and sin. I'm kind of putting the "literal interpretation of Genesis" on the backburner. All I want to to is talk about death and sin (bleak, yeah, I know...)

Is there any other way to interpret sin and death in the bible? I don't have verses memorized (yet), but I know that Paul talks about death came into the world through one man, Adam, and was conquered by another, Jesus. I'm pretty sure Jesus spoke similarly. Not to mention all the verses in the old testament.

So...

Simply looking at sin and death, the fact that God made man, and man begot sin, and sin begot death, and there was no death before man, doesn't this mean that a Christian who knows and loves his Bible can't believe in evolution?

I stress "knows... his bible" because I hadn't even thought of this argument till a bit ago. For awhile, I thought God might have used evolution as a means of creation, but after reading more of the Bible, it seems to me like such a thing violates one of the main cornerstones of the Bible: that man allowed sin into the world.

 

[ppar3566]

....

Good point. I suppose you could still say that evolution occured via procreation but nothing died but it seems to me that the earth would begin to get pretty squishy pretty quick. Again I really do think it comes down to how you read Genesis 1:1 to 2:3 (and not just the literal 7 days thing). If it is literal I think you win hands down, however if a literal interpretation is in fact a correct one evolution is in trouble for lots of reasons. However, and I have said this in other posts,if you read the passage in the way I believe most Jew who first recieved it would have your issue disapears(i.e. Gen 1:1 to 2:3 a metaphorical creation story that seeks to reassert God as both Creator and rightful Ruler over the world (not the god Ra) and we as humans who are his representatives on earth (not the Pharoh) have both betrayed our position and destroyed our perfect relationship with God though asserting ourselves as Rulers over the earth to a people that are more attuned to Egyptian mythology that Jewish history). From this view Genesis is not and never was meant to be a history of how God created but rather and illustration of who God is (Creator and ruler of all), why he created people(we are his representatives on earth), and what went wrong (we tried to make ourselves rulers of the world). Admittedly this is not consesus among theologians but nor by a long shot is the literal translation.

Admittedly, this makes lots of people very angry and rightfully so if I am suggesting that God or the Bible is lying, which I am not. My point is this are whole view of creation as christians must rely on the bible but equally so it must rely on a proper interpretation of the bible. And to quote one famous Christian theologian "the holy spirit will never reveal to us [or our interpretation of the bible should never reveal to us] anything that is contradictory to the literary and historical context of the passage. It is my belief that if you explore both the literary and historical context of Gen 1:1 to 2:3 you need not have a literal translation of that text and thus evolution is not inherintly in conflict with the bible.

I say this not becasue I think you should believe as I do (I'm not 100% fixzed on it myself) but rather that there are interpretations of the bible from strong christians that do not go against evolution. Thus while it is fun to discuss among Christians we should not let something that is not cetral to our belief divide us nor distance non-believers from the word of God on something that not even we all agree on.

 

[Odale]

I believe that there is a huge plethora of evidence of evolution, you simply cannot ignore it. Evolution is a very intricate system that God created that ensures creatures who have important jobs stay around to balance other animal's jobs. To ignore that is a shame, imo.

What I personally believe happened is God created the world, and it took off. Species came and went, some species evolved and others did not. Apes then came upon the scene. They evolved, eventually evolving into Neanderthals and then into Homo Sapiens. God then created Adam and Eve, Homo Sapiens Sapiens; what we are today.

Thats my personal point of view on evolution. It, to me, makes the most sense with what we are taught in the Bible, and what knowledge we have with the sciences we have.

 

[Odale]

Simply looking at sin and death, the fact that God made man, and man begot sin, and sin begot death, and there was no death before man, doesn't this mean that a Christian who knows and loves his Bible can't believe in evolution?

From what you are saying, death (literal loss of life) is the equivalent to Hell (the eternal loss of a soul), and Sin is the equivalent to the road to Hell. If you have no sin, you have no Hell; therefore, you cannot go to Hell if the act of sinning does not exist, and Sin does not exist without man.

Death cannot not mean the literal, usual death. Life does not exist without death. Simple as that. If nothing died, then nothing could have proliferated due to overpopulation; and God wanted proliferation of things. No proliferation = against God's will.

Understand?

 

[ppar3566]

From what you are saying, death (literal loss of life) is the equivalent to Hell (the eternal loss of a soul), and Sin is the equivalent to the road to Hell. If you have no sin, you have no Hell; therefore, you cannot go to Hell if the act of sinning does not exist, and Sin does not exist without man.

Death cannot not mean the literal, usual death. Life does not exist without death. Simple as that. If nothing died, then nothing could have proliferated due to overpopulation; and God wanted proliferation of things. No proliferation = against God's will.

Understand?

I'm not sure I understand but I am assuming you are suggesting that:
1. Death in Genesis is a methaphore for seperation from God and the destruction of his purpose for our lives (i.e. to live under his lordship as his representative on earth).

In such a case I am assuming you are suggesting that sin came into the world once humans developed far enough along the evolutionary ladder to develop conscienceness.

I think that this is an interesting view (and one that I would lean towards) but I think just like tjguitarz this can only work if your (and my) interpretation of Genesis is correct (i.e. it is not literal). I suppose this brings us back to a real difficult issue for us Christians, which is how do we read the bible and get the right message when the literary and historical context is so foriegn to us.

 

[Atown]

Thats not evolution. Thats saying that God created Adam and his sons were birthed. Thats not evolution at all. Evolution is 'millions of years' thats just God being fun.

Also Evolution isnt just about belly buttons. Its a whole lot more than that. How can you believe in evolution just by that one thing alone. If you believe in evolution than why did He create Adam first? If evolution is true shouldnt He have made prehistoric soup first? Which then grew into microscopic life, and then into a fish, which washed up on the shore and decided to walk, which then grew hair, and then created the cities we live in.

And heres a tough question: Which is truth, the Bible or a textbook?

im sorry, you missed my point: getting a belly button is the only evolution i believe in. and my bible will forever stand true, no text book can touch it. ive heard all the other arguments, but if my bible says: 7 days, it was freaking 7 days.

 

[Keero]

Though I know it's extremely controversial and important in today's society, I could care less if we evolved from nothing that exploded (which I don't think happen), or if we were created from dirt. The main thing I'm focusing is on where I'm going. And that may sound like a weak view to this topic, but after a few years of posting on forums about this debate, I just give up. God allows us to make mistakes, and I think He knows if we hold ignorant views (not just evolution, but other things pertaining to the Bible) to what the truth really is. Death = Man, or Man = Death, the main thing is You = Heaven, or You = Hell. That's what it's about to me.

 

[Stc95]

Lots of quotes! Quotes for all! YAY!

First off: Heres the part where God tells Adam that he will die. This is where we see death. And the only reason that God is giving this punishment is because Adam sinned.

Gen 3:19 (KJV) "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

im sorry, you missed my point: getting a belly button is the only evolution i believe in.

Lol, ok. That makes more sense.. even tho i still think its more of a techinicallity than anything else.

I believe that there is a huge plethora of evidence of evolution.

See I believe in the exact opposite. So far i have found no evidence for Evolution except Mirco-evolution (varriations with kinds).


So let me try and break this up with some comments:

From what you are saying, death (literal loss of life) is the equivalent to Hell (the eternal loss of a soul), and Sin is the equivalent to the road to Hell. If you have no sin, you have no Hell; therefore, you cannot go to Hell if the act of sinning does not exist, and Sin does not exist without man.

From what you are saying, death (literal loss of life) is the equivalent to Hell (the eternal loss of a soul),

Those are two totally different "deaths." We can die and go to Heaven or go to Hell. Both require dieing (losing our flesh) AND we still get to keep our souls, (yes even in Hell.. if our souls died when we go to Hell, why would God throw souls, that are in Hell, into the Lake of Fire when He comes back?) From my understanding that is the only time when our soul is 'destroyed' or it could even be sorta like a worse form of Hell.. idk, either way i dont wanna go!

Death in Genesis is a methaphore for seperation from God and the destruction of his purpose for our lives (i.e. to live under his lordship as his representative on earth).

Sin is our separation from God, not death. If anything death brings us closer to God because (providing we love and believe Christ) we are going to go to God!

In such a case I am assuming you are suggesting that sin came into the world once humans developed far enough along the evolutionary ladder to develop conscienceness.

If what you say is true, we would have to discard the idea that death came into the world by sin. Because you cant have humans moving up the Evolutionary Chain without death.

However, and I have said this in other posts,if you read the passage in the way I believe most Jew who first recieved it

I know we have debated about this before. And we agreed to disagree, but i'm still not sold on why it cant be both? The Jews still would have believed Genisis had it been literal or not. And i find that there is more evidence here and now to support the fact that it was a seven day creation.


Finally i will close with:

Thus while it is fun to discuss among Christians we should not let something that is not central to our belief divide us nor distance non-believers from the word of God on something that not even we all agree on.

The main thing I'm focusing is on where I'm going

I do believe that we should not get to a point where we feel animosity toward each other. We are all seeking for the truth. But our main idea and goal is to see the living Lord, Jesus Christ. But i do believe that the idea of Evolution is corrupting our society and making it much MUCH harder for people to come to Christ and take him for who He is.

 

[Durruck]

A lot of problems were introduced into the world because of man's sin. It wasn't until the fall that death was a factor, and therefor, no "need" for evolution.

You've got me a little confused, Durruck. Are you suggesting there was death before sin?You've got me a little confused, Durruck. Are you suggesting there was death before sin?

I think you've taken one sentence and looked at it out of context.

I'm saying that after the fall, we were subjected to death. Evolution relies on the idea that the adaptations make the changed being more fit to survive, and only carriers of that trait will eventually be able to keep up. But if Adam lived for 930 years, he couldn't have been *that* much inferior to his children or grandchildren, who only lived to be 912 years old - and each generation after that lived a shorter amount of time than each before it.

The first documented death in the Bible is Abel, killed by Cain - all of which was long after the fall, so obviously humans weren't subject to death until after the fall.

And if you take a step back, and think about that God created the perfect world, the perfect man, woman, trees, plants, animals, etc... and then gave us all free will, you could say that everything that's happened since Adam's time has been DE-evolution. We've gotten sicker, lived shorter lives, been affected by more problems, and flat made a mess of this place. Doesn't sound like we're really getting any smarter, does it?

Now yes, you are right that evolution requires changes and mutations in genetic code after sexual reproduction, but that would be over a long period of time… billions of years. There are no creatures billions of years old, and as such they had to die. This conflicts with the timeline of the Bible and with the Biblical truth of no death before sin.

I think that's where a lot of people get hung up - macroevolution claims that we came from apes of millions of years. Microevolution makes no claims for necessary timelines. Did you know that the average height of an Caucasian, American male in the late 1800's was around 5'8" (68"), and Abraham Lincoln was considered unusually tall at a whopping 6'4" (76")? Today, the average Caucasian, American male is closer to 6'2" (74") with variances nearing 7' (84"). That means in only 140 years, we've seen an height increase of roughly 8", or that we are 111% of what our great-great grandfathers were. Microevolution doesn't take billions, or even thousands of years to take place.

Of course, those numbers only count if you trust your textbooks. In the end, I still choose to believe that The Bible has the right answers.