So... Spawn Camping

Mr. SmartyPants

New Member
So in all honesty, I suppose I'm a little aggravated for the moment. But I figure a discourse on this may be beneficial.

What are your opinions on spawn camping? Not too long ago I was playing on The Fish servers with TF2, and I began stickying on the enemy's spawn door (One of three). I got warned by the admins then I got admin-killed.

I can't say I agree with this rule. Clearly the ability to set stickies at a spawn door is not a game exploit, and therefore part of the game. Is it not a perfectly valid tactic? Usually making it to the enemy spawn can often be a difficult task in itself, usually with larger servers.

There was a second time which I was more aggravated. There was a sniper right outside his spawn. When he received damage he quickly ran inside for health. Naturally I began laying stickies outside his spawn, as that's what they stickies are for. Again I get admin-killed.

I can't quite understand this. Was I not doing what any sensible demoman would do? I mean I have a target and he's a treat to me, so naturally I should take him out. What do I do? Wait till he's out then attempt to attack him? Or do I do what is smarter: Take preemptive measures. It's like... honestly? I'm being punished for using strategy?

I understand it is the server's rules, so by choosing to play there I am in essence agreeing with said rules. But what is the justification of making it such a rule? Especially when especially in games like TF2, countering spawn camping is much more feasible. I mean it's like all the CS servers banning the autosnipers and the AWP because it's incredibly "imbalanced" or a "noob" weapon. But I think that's dumb.

So. Thoughts?
 
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Christian Crew said:
7. Do not spawn camp (relates to TF2).
8. Do not camp if there are only two players left alive (relates to CS:S).

You obviously did not agree to their rules before playing the server. -_-

Other than that, just 1 word.

CHEAP!
 
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You obviously did not agree to their rules. -_-
Yes. I know. And in principle, I do not agree with this rule. However, it is a rule which I find arbitrary. As such, I wish to know what the justification is for those who share similar sentiments.
 
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Because it is not alot of fun being on the receiving end. Sometimes, enough is enough. You do it once, you get your cheap thrills and you move on. But sitting there doing it over and over and over again...ok, it is not an exploit but, just because it is not an exploit it does not mean it is something you should do ad nauseum.
 
Usually, spawn door is a no-no. Some distance from the door behind a corner = win. :D
 
I tend to feel that if you push them back to spawn then you could take an extra kill or two at their spawn, but then back off a little to make the game still fun for all... that is in pubs anyway. In matches if you push them back to spawn then by all means camp and keep them there :)
 
Because it is not alot of fun being on the receiving end. Sometimes, enough is enough. You do it once, you get your cheap thrills and you move on. But sitting there doing it over and over and over again...ok, it is not an exploit but, just because it is not an exploit it does not mean it is something you should do ad nauseum.

Agreed...
 
Ah a subject I've been meaning to cover for some time as I have several things to say about it...

1. First and foremost if a server has the no spawn camping rule I will try to observe it best I can.

2. Spawn camping in TF2 is NOT like spawn camping in other older games from which spawn camping got it's bad rep. For comparison on other games you spawn in the open with no power ups, a powered up dude sitting right on the spawn point and there is nothing you can do but die. In TF2 you CAN take your time to get oriented and peek out the door as opposed to running pell-mell through it. 80% of the time I've gotten through camping using my brains instead of running out in a hot hurry. You can use a Pyro airblast or Medic plus Solider or Heavy to clear stickies. The Scottish Resistance can blow up stickies as opposed to scattering them (though I haven't tried this). Just edge opening the door and getting the Demo to detonate prematurely can work or having one guy bite the bullet to clear them for other guys. I've also gotten out quite easily as a dead ringer spy. Spawn camping works when you don't defend your spawn, communicate you are being camped to your teammates, refuse to slow down or most often simply because you are already losing and don't have to be camped long for the other team to win.

3. Sometimes I am not spawn camping although I get accused of it. For instance if I wish to destroy tele entrances where else am I supposed to go as they are often right in front of the spawn doors. I've also needed to walk by a spawn on occasion to get to something on the other side in which case you can't exactly stare awkwardly at any enemy who emerges in the time you pass by. On occasion this can get to be repetitive as you may be trying to get away but people keep coming out and you can't turn your back on them. I've also been going by a spawn and killed one guy, as in singular, and becuase he does not know I'm not there anymore heard him warn on alltalk I am spawn camping, ah well guess the fear will keep them in :p.

4. Demos were made to camp. Although he doesn't do it on a spawn that's exactly what he does in the meet the Demo video. Given that Valve is obviously aware of this, doesn't put multiple exits on some spawns or use clear doors one must come to the conclusion spawn camping is intentional by Valve. Many servers run non-stock configs though so it' not like there is only one way to run a server and rules will differ that's fine. Also Valve gave us random crits to which I have now turned completely against so Valve doesn't always know best.

5. You cannot spawn camp as a spy. To effectively spawn camp means you cannot get out of a spawn and I see no way a spy can keep you in it. I was once accused of spawn camping on FISH as a spy >.< (although I think it was just a random guy not an admin). Also consider I was backstabbing him (3 times and no front stabs they were all legit). Backstabbing means I was behind him every time so he had to have left the spawn. To compound it I was on Hydro next to the turbine room had I waited until he went up the ramp I would have been in sg fire range and had not an opportunity to attack and live. In other words my opportunity to attack was extremely small. Anyway I stopped stabbing him not because I felt it was wrong but because I have no desire to make the game un-fun for players and he was probably a newbie or something.

6. Spawn camping will remain legal on our server however in the interest of fun I won't continuously camp Blu (Red is a different matter as camping doesn't have to be prolonged) even though it would occasionally win the game (and even though I've lost doing letting them out before). I will also get players to back off if the camping is prolonged and extreme. I also will not allow spawn camping for grieving purposes as in taking intel and camping while not scoring this is just not cool. My interest is keeping gameplay fun but if people are playing legit and camping that's fine.

Really I'm fine with the no spawn camping rule on FISH with the exception of the Spy incident which is just plain wrong :p.

I rarely have a problem getting out of a spawn, after my first death that is, so I've never minded being spawn camped myself. Dead ringer disguise as a friendly is your ticket out for you and your team just watch it as you can still die if there are an extreme amount of stickies.
 
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...

I understand it is the server's rules, so by choosing to play there I am in essence agreeing with said rules...

It is their server, so they get to make up whatever rules they see fit/want to.

...But what is the justification of making it such a rule? Especially when especially in games like TF2, countering spawn camping is much more feasible.

So. Thoughts?

Gerbil summed that portion up nicely with his Spy remarks.

This reminds me of one map I played on (was a long time ago) where it was one giant room filled with shipping containers. Each team's spawn room was towards the right corners of the big room, and they had stairs leading to a short hallway in them along with a window running down the adjacent wall.

This was a great map... so long as you weren't spawn camped by snipers hiding inside their spawn room! Every now and then we would get pushed back into our spawn room by a heavy+medic or a soldier+medic but being camped by a demo was rare (again, it was a while ago) but most of the problems were with snipers!

I see your point and with this map in mind it definitely seems that there are some double standards to deal with in some servers; however, the bottom line is that you've got to observe the server's rules. If you don't agree then you have plenty of other servers to play on. If your friends play there then you must weigh the pros and cons and see what option best fits you.
 
In TF2 some of the points are so close to the spawn it almost becomes a necessity, sadly. TF2 has dozens of mechanics that have only gotten worst through revisions (Force of Nature anyone?). Playing a game where you die to a single click (sniper/stickies) and have to wait up to a minute to play is annoying. Add in being killed as soon as you walk out the spawn and having to repeat the process only makes it much, much worst.

I like Global Agenda's spawn system. Basically you are immune while inside and for a few seconds after you leave. People can camp you, but they will basically be free targets. In a largely unregulated game this works well. I can't remember any working in stock PvP and aside from some AvA matches where we rolled the other team back to their dropship you rarely see any camping.
 
Thanks for your comments all, especially Gerbil.

Honestly I can't say that the argument of "it's annoying" is a strong one. What is "annoying" is entirely subjective. If I were on the receiving end of being spawn camped, then the necessary alternative is to use strategy. Airblast, build ubers, what not.

Know that in my case I was BLU when "spawn camping" RED. Yes, I was on the offensive side. Valid Strategy = Valid Strategy. It benefits the team and the overall goal while still within the boundaries of the game's mechanics.

My first instance is more understandable than my second. As the second time I saw an enemy retreat into his spawn. Again, what was I supposed to do? Play gentle? No. This is TF2, lol. Giving the enemy the advantage in order to maintain "no spawn camping" as a rule is silly.

This brings forth other questions. Where is the fine line between "spawn camping" and "not spawn camping"? How far away do I have to be in order to not "spawn camp"? One foot? Three feet? A meter? Away from the spawn's view? What if there is a map where the two spawns face each other? What if I am not camping the spawn, but an exit that is right outside of the spawn? (Think: RED Sniper defending Stage 2, Point 1 of cp_dustbowl, with heads popping up everywhere as they exit their spawn-area) I think if we did an actual critical analysis of this rule, then I think that the end result would show that it is highly problematic, logically inconsistent, and perhaps even deconstructed. It's a very gray rule and I think may potentially be filled with loopholes and circular reasoning.

To be perfectly honest, it is a rule I can work with, but in principle I, again, disagree upon. Nor can I say that any justification for the rule's existence which have been brought up are both satisfying and objective. Of course if say, Red is right outside Blu's spawn and not letting anyone out at all for a long time, yes it will get boring for some people. And sure I'll cease the spawn camping. But this in no way means I am against it as being a valid and allowable strategy.
 
It really doesn't matter whether or not you agree with the rule, it is their server on which they enforce their rule set as they see fit. If you don't like it or disagree with them, your choice really is to find another server that allows the rules you like or to manage your own server and enforce your own rules.
 
It really doesn't matter whether or not you agree with the rule, it is their server on which they enforce their rule set as they see fit.
With all due respect, not only have I come to that conclusion, but I have twice stated that I understood this. The question here is in a much larger scope than just this particular server. It is an inquiry on why such a position is held.
 
Playing a game where you die to a single click (sniper/stickies) and have to wait up to a minute to play is annoying.

That's a lot of FPS's as most games with sniper classes one shot you and insta-kill explosives aren't anything new. TF2 isn't special in those regards. In fact the sniper charge meter prevents a tiny bit of that in comparison. I think what makes insta-kills more apparent in TF2 is the linear layout of the levels which often give only a couple approaches. Of course maps appear to be designed to be more confining to promote getting together for teamwork. More complicated maps like cp_Steel seem to be like it or hate it affairs by most TF2 players. As far as a spawn time I personally prefer a death penalty to create some fear of death. Though the Counter Strike die once and sit out the whole round mechanic is not fun for me either >.< (why do people like this game? I'm genuinely clueless as to why sitting around for most of a round waiting is fun?). While the insta-spawn times on Unreal 2004 caused me to be slightly nauseous with its unending combat. To me Unreal 2004 was all about fast reflexes and pattern learning. It did not have enough strategy for me other than taking advantage of other peoples fights and getting behind people. I like a balance in spawn time not instant but not for the whole round. That's just my preference though.

I like Global Agenda's spawn system. Basically you are immune while inside and for a few seconds after you leave. People can camp you, but they will basically be free targets. In a largely unregulated game this works well. I can't remember any working in stock PvP and aside from some AvA matches where we rolled the other team back to their dropship you rarely see any camping.

That does sound like an interesting and good mechanic :) .That sounds like after you die in most other games and you flash for a few seconds of invincibility. I wonder why FPS's haven't implemented that before (note I know GA is not a FPS).
 
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What are your opinions on spawn camping? Not too long ago I was playing on The Fish servers with TF2, and I began stickying on the enemy's spawn door (One of three). I got warned by the admins then I got admin-killed.

The admins might as well have said, "hey everyone, no demos."

I can't say I agree with this rule. Clearly the ability to set stickies at a spawn door is not a game exploit, and therefore part of the game. Is it not a perfectly valid tactic? Usually making it to the enemy spawn can often be a difficult task in itself, usually with larger servers.

I probably disagree that it's "part of the game." However, doing anything within the spirit of the game mechanics/physics in order to achieve a certain goal is perfectly valid imo. Therefore, with some exceptions, attaching an additional rule for the match is kind of arbitrary. Not that that's wrong; it just alters the game-play.

Also, I just want to add, that sometimes breaking the rules causes the match to be that much more fun. I think that either a lot of players forget that, or may just not be aware of it.
 
While the insta-spawn times on Unreal 2004 caused me to be slightly nauseous with its unending combat. To me Unreal 2004 was all about fast reflexes and pattern learning.
And PANCAKES! Don't forget about PANCAKES!

It did not have enough strategy for me other than taking advantage of other peoples fights and getting behind people.
If you're talking about vanilla UT2004 deathmatch, then I see your point.

But Onslaught (which is, in my opinion, the reason to buy UT2004) offers quite a bit of strategy.

And PANCAKES!

I like a balance in spawn time not instant but not for the whole round.
If it's deathmatch (Half-Life Deathmatch on a LAN and Quake Live ftw), I like instant respawn.

If it's a competitive team FPS with team objectives, there needs to be at least a slight delay to keep people from spamming grenades and corpses to win.

That does sound like an interesting and good mechanic :) .That sounds like after you die in most other games and you flash for a few seconds of invincibility. I wonder why FPS's haven't implemented that before (note I know GA is not a FPS).
I don't that would work as well for TF2.

I see the point in a "no spawn camping" rule on a pub server. When you're on the receiving end, it is annoying. But there are a number of variables that would affect my decision whether to ask players to stop spawn camping on the ToJ TF2 server.

If it's mostly regulars and ToJ members playing and teams are somewhat balanced, I'd likely allow a bit of spawn camping--assuming that players on the winning side are pushing the team objective. (Players who spawn camp then hold flags, refuse to push the cart, or refuse to claim objective points are griefers, which is a different issue.)

An example from this week's TF2sday event comes to mind:

Gerbil and I were playing on BLU (offense) on a team comprised mostly of ToJ member. Most, if not all, of the players on RED (defense) were also either ToJ members or regulars. Our team was pushing the cart to the objective point on pl_hoodoo and our numbers were starting to get thinned out. To buy us the time we needed to push the cart "home," Gerbil, as a Demoman, threw some grenades (I don't know if they were regular grenades or stickies) to delay or kill players leaving spawn.

The "camping" (if it could even be called that) lasted less than 30 seconds, but gave us the final push we needed to win the round.

It's worth noting that there is no rule against spawn camping in any competitive FPS league or ladder. If the team can make it to your spawn and camp it, then they're going to win the round. Pub play and competitive play are two very different things. (Side note: I miss competitive play.)

For me, it comes down to a case-by-case basis. There've been times when I've been on a team that's steamrolling the opposition on the ToJ TF2 server (yes, it happens on rare occasions) and I've asked the players on my team to back off a little. People usually listen to a polite request.

Besides, if the enemy is pushing the spawn that hard, it may be possible for a Spy to break through, make it to the capture point, and "ninja cap" it before the defensive team can backpedal. That's why you'll hear me tell my team, "Don't overreach" when playing defense. Pressing spawn is sometimes a legitimate tactic, but sometimes presents an opening that a skilled Spy can use to quickly reverse the flow of battle (or even end that round).

I think a hard and fast "no spawn camping" rule can be cumbersome. The term "spawn camping" is largely subjective, it can be a legitimate tactic, and the term itself spawned from an older generation of FPS games when "spawn camping" was far more insidious (as Gerbil referenced an earlier post).

I'm fond of saying, "It's not spawn camping. It's enemy suppression!" (always with a smile), but I'd like to think I have a feel for when people are getting annoyed. Winning on a pub server doesn't mean that much when half or more of the opposing team ragequits the next round and you're left playing against 4 players on a map designed for teams of 8.

As for specific servers (which I understand isn't the entire scope of this topic), I agree with the "My server, my rules" philosophy, even if I wouldn't phrase it in such bald terms. I do my best to enforce the rules fairly, remembering that rules are a means to an end and not the end itself. But I won't spend the time I set aside for online gaming debating (in-game) whether rules are "fair" or not with argumentative players (note: I am NOT suggesting anyone posting in this thread is argumentative; I'm thinking of griefers who often break rules then feign ignorance) when ToJ members spend money to keep our server online.
 
With all due respect, not only have I come to that conclusion, but I have twice stated that I understood this. The question here is in a much larger scope than just this particular server. It is an inquiry on why such a position is held.

You are right, I was probably a bit snarky in my reply. The subject at hand is purely subjective, so subjective replies are perfectly acceptable and should not be brushed aside out of hand.
 
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