Should women be ordained

[Mr_Eon]

####, both the points I wanted to make have been made by Mr. Mustard and by Mr. Fe.

The only reason I'm posting here is so that you guys don't think I got bored and wandered off, it's just that what I was going to say has already been eloquently expressed.

Our world is NOT a meritocracy. There are still people who think that the wrong side won your civil war, there are still people who believe that those of other races are basically inferior, and anybody who cannot open their eyes enough to SEE that the world is still largely run by Upper Class White Males is sadly deluded.

And I'm a Middle Class White Male, so it's hardly like I'm feeling excluded here.

 

[Mercury]

What!?!? Who is blaming women for the original sin?!?!?!

Eve was decieved, Adam know what he was doing.

There is no reason why women shouldn't be pastors,
Why wouldnt God use a women to spread the gospel just as He would use a man.
There are alot of great women pastors in the world today.

(mr eon)"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as also Christ is the head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything."
Ephesians 5:22-24

You left out the next verses saying
"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her.
Ephesians 5:25

well any way

Mercury <Jon>

 

[Tom Kazansky]

Quote[/b] ](Me) A number of women in Hellenistic cultures were actually the religious and political leaders before becoming Christians.  There are many instances of female-dominated priest(ess)hoods in Hellenistic societies.

The situation was a little different in Corinth, which is where Paul gave that instruction.

Quote[/b] ](Me) You'll actually find this mentioned throughout the Bible, as the Biblical paradigm is always man over woman in earthly authority, though the woman is not inferiority.  In the New Testament, Paul specifically indicates to Timothy (who he was instructing for a teaching position) that he will not allow a woman to hold teaching authority over a man (1 Tim 2:12, if I'm remembering correctly).  Thus, given the Biblical paradigm, and the specific command in the Pauline epistles, we conclude that women ought not to be ordained ministers.

Again, I think you're neglecting the audience that Timothy was supposed to be dealing with.  The Old Testiment has many instructions that we no longer must follow.  I mean in Leviticus is says that one should not wear clothing made from more than one material, yet we no longer follow that.  My point is that things can change, and women who are qualified and can enlighten us should not be denied the opportunity to do so.

Quote[/b] ]I can conclude from your post that you think women and ethnic minorities are just too lazy to make it happen. Non white people are just lazy slobs, Pat Buchanon was right after all, thanks Tom.

<sarcasm>Yeah, that's exactly what I was saying</sarcasm>.  Give me a break man!  No wonder people get confused when interpreting the Bible; they like to twist around people's words to make it sound like something they want it too.  Show me where I said they were lazy?  Point it out!  You better pay attention before you make rediculous claims like you just did.  I was saying they've had time to get the training and the qualifications for any job they want, and now have the qualifications and training required for the jobs they want to get.  Do you disagree?

Quote[/b] ]You might want to double check just who is racist here, the Affirmative action proponents or the opponents? I don't think you are conciously or purposly this way, but please wake up and see what you are saying.

So you're saying anyone who thinks people should not be denied jobs solely because they're white or a male is a racist?  Oh I see what you're trying to say here!  Those who believe in equality for all are racist, and those who believe in affirmative action are non-racist, is that your definition?  

As for you claiming that I'm a racist because I'm against Affirmitive Action let me inform you that my core group of closest, and I mean CLOSEST, friends has one black guy and two Chinese guys.  One of my cousins is black too.  So how am I a racist?  Because I don't believe that white males should be denied jobs because of their race?  Because I believe in equal opportunity for people of all races and genders?  I think YOU'RE the one who should be checking what you're saying. How DARE you call me a racist!

Finally, are you suggesting that denying white people jobs and university positions because of their race is NOT racist?

Quote[/b] ]There are still people who think that the wrong side won your civil war, there are still people who believe that those of other races are basically inferior, and anybody who cannot open their eyes enough to SEE that the world is still largely run by Upper Class White Males is sadly deluded.

So your solution to this problem is to deny honest, non-racist, and hard working white people jobs and university positions because some idiots in the southern United States are still racists?  How is there nothing wrong with that statement?  Why should I, a resident of Canada, at age 18 years(too young to have been involved in the past mistakes of whites in the CSA), and a non racist white male, be denied a job because some idiots in the past were racist?  How is that fair?  How is that justice?  Making innocent people pay for the mistakes of the past members of society is not justice, nor is it right.

 

[Tom Kazansky]

Quote[/b] ]There are alot of great women pastors in the world today.

That's exactly right!

 

[MeanMrMustard]

What amazes me most Tom is that you will not admit there is inequality. Affirmative action is an attempt to fix a serious problem in this country. Women and minorities do not earn equal salaries and do not hold equal economic status in this country as white males. That is a fact, nobody will dispute it. You say things like "oh they've had plenty of time to catch up"

Quote[/b] ]I was saying they've had time to get the training and the qualifications for any job they want, and now have the qualifications and training required for the jobs they want to get.

So here is my question, if they have had plenty of time to catch up, why haven't they? Do minorities simply have lower aspirations than us and prefer manual labor to being the CEO of a corporation? Or have they had enough time but not used it, hence wasted their time by being too lazy. This is implied by your post to me and is where I got my previous point in my last post. I will agree that by definition affirmative action is racist, however I think we can deal with a little bit of reverse racism in the face of the still very present inequality in OUR FAVOR as whites in this society.

Also I really dont think you are racist, but you have to see how your statement could be seen as such.

 

[Tom Kazansky]

Quote[/b] ]What amazes me most Tom is that you will not admit there is inequality. Affirmative action is an attempt to fix a serious problem in this country. Women and minorities do not earn equal salaries and do not hold equal economic status in this country as white males. That is a fact, nobody will dispute it. You say things like "oh they've had plenty of time to catch up"

So you think racism against whites is justified, simply because statistically white males are making more money than others are? Talk to those who have lost their jobs because of their race, and we'll see how fair it really is.

Quote[/b] ]I will agree that by definition affirmative action is racist, however I think we can deal with a little bit of reverse racism in the face of the still very present inequality in OUR FAVOR as whites in this society.

So you consider racism to be acceptable practice if and only if it is directed towards whites? Give me a break man. Affirmitive action will not solve any problems, it will only create more. I think this society will be a lot happier once affirmitive action is throw out like the trash that it is.

Quote[/b] ]Also I really dont think you are racist, but you have to see how your statement could be seen as such.

How is it a racist statement? Because I spoke out against racial descrimination against white people? I'm surprised that the same people spearheading equality amongst races support this racist policy, I really am.

I've got a question for you. Are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is and give up your job or your university placement to another person simply to "even the field"? No? I didn't think you were. So how can you demand others to do the same?

 

[Mr_Eon]

I'll tell you what - the MINUTE you can come up with a better way to address the iniquitous imbalance, I'll agree that Affirmative action should be scrapped.

Until then...

 

[Tom Kazansky]

If you don't want to listen to me, you should have watched Crossfire last week.  They talked about it there, and according to a poll put up by Tucker 86% of blacks were AGAINST affirmitive action.  So it looks like it's really not a good solution afterall is it Eon?

Let's look at what Richard Rodriguez, a conservative Mexican writer, has to say about this.  Bear in mind, he's legally a member of the minority.

Quote[/b] ]
London: You've said that it's tough in America to lead an intellectual life outside the universities. Yet you made a very conscious decision to leave academia.

Rodriguez: My decision was sparked by affirmative action. There was a point in my life when affirmative action would have meant something to me -- when my father was working-class, and we were struggling. But very early in life I became part of the majority culture and now don't think of myself as a minority. Yet the university said I was one. Anybody who has met a real minority - in the economic sense, not the numerical sense - would understand how ridiculous it is to describe a young man who was already at the university, already well into his studies in Italian and English Renaissance literature, as a minority. Affirmative action ignores society's real minorities - members of the disadvantaged classes, no matter what their race. We have this ludicrous bureaucratic sense that certain racial groups, regardless of class, are minorities. So what happens is those "minorities" at the very top of the ladder get chosen for everything.

London: Is that what happened to you?

Rodriguez: Well, when it came time for me to look for jobs, the jobs came looking for me. I had teaching offers from the best universities in the country. I was about to accept one from Yale when the whole thing collapsed on me.

London: What do you mean?

Rodriguez: I had all this anxiety about what it meant to be a minority. My professors - the same men who taught me the intricacies of language - just shied away from the issue. They didn't want to talk about it, other than to suggest I could be a "role model" to other Hispanics - when I went back to my barrio, I suppose. I came from a white middle class neighborhood. Was I expected to go back there and teach the woman next door about Renaissance sonnets? The embarrassing truth of the matter was that I was being chosen because Yale University had some peculiar idea about my skin color or ethnicity signified. Who knows what Yale thought it was getting when it hired Richard Rodriguez? The people who offered me the job thought there was nothing wrong with that. I thought there was something very wrong with that. I still do. I think race-based affirmative action is crude and absolutely mistaken.

http://www.scottlondon.com/insight/scripts/rodriguez.htm

Wow, even minorities are getting tired of this nonsense, so why aren't you?  Why are you a supporter of racism against the majority?  I don't support racism period, which is why I don't support the joke we know as "Affirmitive Action". Are you now going to stop pretending it's not racist?

 

[TheFe]

(Tom Kazansky) The situation was a little different in Corinth, which is where Paul gave that instruction.

(Me) The key text is in 1 Timothy, which was written to Ephesus (where the situation was certainly similar to my description). I also pointed out the universal nature of the argument made by Paul to Timothy.

The Corinthians reference deals with orderly worship, and indicates that, in orderly worship, women are not to lead. If they must get up at all, they were to wear a symbol of authority to show their submission and affirm their submissive (yet equal) role.



(Tom Kazansky) Again, I think you're neglecting the audience that Timothy was supposed to be dealing with.

(Me) What reasons can you give that it was audience-specific? Can I not just say that discussions on homosexuality or salvation through Christ were audience-specific, assuming that I'm not called into account on what reasons I think this?


(Tom Kazansky) The Old Testiment has many instructions that we no longer must follow. I mean in Leviticus is says that one should not wear clothing made from more than one material, yet we no longer follow that. My point is that things can change, and women who are qualified and can enlighten us should not be denied the opportunity to do so.

(Me) In the NT, it is indicated that the Law was but a tutor to Christ (Gal 3), and that Christ came to FULFILL the Law (Matt 5). However, it indicates no expiration date on commands regarding gender roles.

Sola Scriptura

 

[MeanMrMustard]

Tom you didn't answer my question, so I'll restate it:
So here is my question, if they have had plenty of time to catch up, why haven't they? Do minorities simply have lower aspirations than us and prefer manual labor to being the CEO of a corporation? Or have they had enough time but not used it, hence wasted their time by being too lazy?

 

[Tom Kazansky]

Quote[/b] ](Me) What reasons can you give that it was audience-specific?  Can I not just say that discussions on homosexuality or salvation through Christ were audience-specific, assuming that I'm not called into account on what reasons I think this?

Timothy was assigned a specific area to teach in, wasn't he?  I know it wasn't modern Western society though, that's for sure.

Quote[/b] ]Me) In the NT, it is indicated that the Law was but a tutor to Christ (Gal 3), and that Christ came to FULFILL the Law (Matt 5).  However, it indicates no expiration date on commands regarding gender roles.

Fulfill the Law, yes, but is it wrong to wear my 50% polyester/50% cotton t-shirt?

Quote[/b] ]So here is my question, if they have had plenty of time to catch up, why haven't they? Do minorities simply have lower aspirations than us and prefer manual labor to being the CEO of a corporation? Or have they had enough time but not used it, hence wasted their time by being too lazy?

Not caught up yet?  Are you joking?  When PM Brian Mulrony quit in 1993 or 1994(I believe), Kim Campbell, a women, took his place as PM of Canada.  Take a look at all the congresswomen and female MP's now-a-days, as well as members of the minority holding respectible positions in government.  Hydro One had a female CEO not very long ago, although she was fired because of her idiotic spending habits, the point is that a FEMALE was a CEO for a period of time in that orginization.  Are you sure they've not caught up yet?  And I'll ask you, and Eon, to respond to my previous question:

Are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is and give up your hard-earned job just to make the job market a little more "fair"?

 

[MeanMrMustard]

Quote[/b] ]Are you sure they've not caught up yet?

Yep. Do the amount of women and minorities reflect the actual amount of people? In other words do the % of women and minorities in places of power and wealth come close to the % of the overall population? No. Not even close. The US congress is something like 95% white males, you think 95% of the population are white men? Nope, not even close. Haven't caught up yet.

Quote[/b] ]Are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is and give up your hard-earned job just to make the job market a little more "fair"?

I would be upset but I would keep things in perspective. I am very privelaged being a white American and I wouldn't start whining over an attempt to bring equality. Even unemployed I would have it better than so many others do.

 

[Tom Kazansky]

Quote[/b] ]Yep. Do the amount of women and minorities reflect the actual amount of people? In other words do the % of women and minorities in places of power and wealth come close to the % of the overall population? No. Not even close. The US congress is something like 95% white males, you think 95% of the population are white men? Nope, not even close. Haven't caught up yet.

First of all, that's not a fair analysis.  Men have traditionally held those positions, and only recently have women began taking them too, so of course men will still make up the vast majority, but the numbers of women are increasing.  Secondly, I want to see some statistics so you can back that, with the reasons for why the numbers are so, because statistics are nothing without the explaination.

Quote[/b] ]I would be upset but I would keep things in perspective. I am very privelaged being a white American and I wouldn't start whining over an attempt to bring equality. Even unemployed I would have it better than so many others do.

I don't think so.  If you lost your job because of your race you wouldn't "keep it in perspective", both of us know that.  You'd acknowledge it as an injustice, which it is, and as racist, which it also is.  Equality by assigning quotas to businesses isn't equality, it's a farce.

 

[Tom Kazansky]

To add to my earlier statement that minorities are getting fed up with it, I want to show you what one individual said about Affirmitive Action in a discussion going on at another board I visit.

Quote[/b] ]As a member of a miniority group myself, I must say that I think that AA hurts more than it helps. If people keep getting handouts, then how are they supposed to one day be able to stand on their own? Plus, AA has a nasty way of bringing back old race-related issues. I think eliminating race-based considerations would go a long way. Perhaps they can take those programs and make them need based instead. (in regards to college scholarships and the like)

In high school, my ethnicity on my records was down as white, not hispanic. (though I do have a hispanic surname) Due to my class rank, I got into my first choice college, but my friend, who was half hispanic and was #30 in a class of 1020 didn't get in. Like me, he was down as white, not hispanic.

Like I said, even the minorities have had enough of this nonsense.

 

[MeanMrMustard]

Quote[/b] ]If you lost your job because of your race you wouldn't "keep it in perspective", both of us know that. You'd acknowledge it as an injustice, which it is, and as racist, which it also is.

You hardly know me and are a bad judge of what I would or would not do, you asked me and I told you, you dont have to accept it.

Quote[/b] ]Men have traditionally held those positions, and only recently have women began taking them too, so of course men will still make up the vast majority, but the numbers of women are increasing.

What about minorities? I mentioned them in my post as well.

 

[Mr_Eon]

Which particular part of the world or industry would you like me to get statistics for? I could show you statistics about Stockbrokers that would make even you angry, but then Marketing and PR is much more equitable.

I already gave you a good rule of thumb number though - Women doing the same job as a male counterpart make a good 25% less per annum.

Do you know anyone FIRED so that a minority worker could take their place? I haven't met that person - although I have myself been for jobs with companies that have a policy of affirmative action. So I guess that's a YES then.

 

[minotesvardet]

Women are not to hold spiritual office over men. A woman can serve in the youth department, she can work with children, or even teach other women. But a woman should not be held in esteem over a man. And I'm not biased against women, I am one.

 

[Mr_Eon]

Before we question the good or bad of the situation - can we come to some conclusion as to Minote's statement?

Surely such a CENTRAL tenet of faith as the equality or non-equality of the sexes can be commonly stated across Christianity?

 

[Tom Kazansky]

Quote[/b] ]What about minorities? I mentioned them in my post as well.

Well, look at political Caucus. Colin Powell, for example, is an excellent person for the Secretary of State, and that's a rather high position.

Quote[/b] ]You hardly know me and are a bad judge of what I would or would not do, you asked me and I told you, you dont have to accept it.

I know I would be incredibbly angry. If I even get denied a job because the company hasn't met their quota, how is that fair?

Quote[/b] ]Do you know anyone FIRED so that a minority worker could take their place? I haven't met that person - although I have myself been for jobs with companies that have a policy of affirmative action. So I guess that's a YES then.

You seriously got fired because of affirmative action? Doesn't that bother you?

Quote[/b] ]Surely such a CENTRAL tenet of faith as the equality or non-equality of the sexes can be commonly stated across Christianity?

We'll agree once the far left identify AA like the racist policy it is.

 

[Mr_Eon]

Firstly - No, I've never lost my job because of AA. I got RIF'd once in the mid-nineties, but that was an economic downturn thing...

However I HAVE gone for jobs with organisations that operate an AA policy, and since I usually interview well, and never apply for jobs I'm not qualified for, and didn't get the job, I have to assume that AA was the cause at least once or twice. No, it doesn't bother me - I've always found another job.

Eon