Respect

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Vanaze

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Perhaps I'm over-reacting, but I don't believe I am.

For the past year, I've seen more disrespectful attitudes come from elder leadership than I care to see. ToJ started out with a good leader, good cause, and good attitudes. Our goal was to praise Jesus, live life, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God.

Now it's totally different...Seems something more along the lines of -- Love banning, forget forgiveness, walk proudly in front of God...Then maybe later praise Jesus...ONLY WHEN I'M GOOD AND READY TO, THOUGH!

This may seem like "harsh" criticism, but as someone going into the ministry, who has been preaching now for three years, and someone who has been with ToJ since the get-go, I suggest you close your proud lips and listen for once -- no, that was not a threat, only a heavily stated suggestion.

I'm honestly tired of people being unable to be...people! We can't have fun, can't goof off, can't be who we are for fear of being criticized and put down in front of everyone! I'm just tired of it, and as I woke up this morning, it really just set a burr in my saddle to read some of the posts on these forums.

It's quite obvious some members are allowed to get away with more while others are just brushed aside, and that isn't right.

Go back to Jesus, then go back to us.


In all concern and earnesty,
Vanaze
 
Vanaze, this topic sooo should not be here, and this right here this the main reason why i would never join |3r| mainly becuase even IF the admins here were disrespectful (which they arent) you still need to be respectful of them.
 
Atown, this is a public forum of which I'm a long time member, this is an organization of which I'm a long time member ---

This has nothing to do with 3R directly, and you bringing that into this shows your prejudice. I'm a member of ToJ and I have been for a long time -- don't turn this into another topic hating on 3R, please. (You obviously don't know the members, and if you did, you would proudly sport a 3R tag. Don't cause another brother to stumble, brother.)

This topic, obviously, was slated to the leaders (I never said admins, and I excluded that title for a reason, Atown). I am being respectful to them -- most of them are my friends, Atown. It would be a different story if I were here cussing them out, but I'm not, I'm here being honest and free to them in the Spirit. Before you go telling me what I should or should not post her, perhaps you should be the target of some disrespect without reason, then perhaps your thoughts will change. With all due respect, sir, I don't think you have been treated like that here. Others of us don't quite fall into the favoritism that is so blatantly shown here.

Odd, I remember a fellow being told the same thing a while back....I think his name was Martin Luther?


Dissent isn't a bad thing, disrespect is. I'm dissenting from the way things are at current, not disrespecting the people, Atown. I want things to get better, to be able to discuss what bothers me, not be told I have no right to do that --- as you just did, good sir.

This is the thing I'm talking about...Many ToJ members would rather brush things under the rug without ever truly discussing the problems, as many of the locked threads have shown.

Respect, have some.

Vanaze
 
You mean to tell me that the only way to have fun is to break the rules? That is the message I got from your post (the first one).  It seems to me that the leadership, stands firm in how it enforces the rules, and this is interpreted as oppression and arrogance.  

We have a ruleset. We have expected behaviours from players.  When those rules are broken, when players do not behave in appropriate manners, they are punished.   ToJ members, and those players who frequently visit our servers are punished faster and more harshly BECAUSE THEY SHOULD KNOW BETTER.


If you don't break the rules, then you will not be punished.  How much simpler can this be?  Yet, you say that the rules stop us from being the person we wish to be, from having fun, from goofing off.  Yet amazingly, the only time I don't have fun on the server is when I'm having to punish those who are breaking the rules.



This is a huge community, and yet its merely an incredibly vocal minority that speaks of the issues you bring up.  So, is the problem with the elders or with that vocal minority?  So, please, give me specifics email/pm/or IM me them and I will ensure that those specifics are brought up in the Council meetings, but don't just give vague accusations and inneundo.
 
Van, I can't help but feel that this is directed towards the CS chapter and it's leadership. I know in the past that there have been issues between us and you and your members and other players. I've scanned the forums, and well, the only posting I've really seen is in the CS forums from the 3R group. So, I guess this topic is aimed at us? Would you agree?

Disrespect you say? Favoritism? You have the freedom to feel how you want. There has been a lot of disrespect from both sides. I even posted earlier about the disrespect shown from one of your members. Favoritism? I have no clue where that came from and I pray that you're not stating that the team is playing favorites - in response to Atown's post.

I agree with Kidan. How simple is it to follow the rules? If you follow them, you don't get punished. The rules aren't unreasonable, are they? They follow the standards that we as Christians try to apply to our everyday lives, correct? The server is a better server than most, right? I feel my team is doing an EXCELLENT job, although we have made some mistakes. Just remember, we are reactive, not proactive. We're just trying to do our jobs.
 
Kidan, I've no issues with any of you personally, but you putting words in my mouth won't be tolerated, alright?

I respect you all just fine, I have no problems following rules and I never have -- I have problems with leaders who are either too busy to deal with problems, don't care enough to deal with them, or simply don't want to.

I don't see why you all feel hostility towards someone when they /haven't broken any rules/, just like now. I can not recall breaking any rules outrightly or blatently, ever. Yet you come to me in a hostile way, but yes, you did mellow out, which I appreciate.

If I were to come out and say, "So, Kidan, you mean that you're allow to ban people just because you want to?", I'd swiftly have this post thread locked, and/or deleted. That's what I'm talking about when it comes to "respect". Those types of hypocritical actions. I just find it funny and odd that people who are CS administrators are the only ones who ever comment are talk here, so naturally, things get thrown back in 3R's face. I want to see the other administrators doing their parts, playing their roles, and not leaving it up to other people.

Next, I don't know what the purpose in continually bringing up breaking rules is all about -- it appears you're trying to pre-expose and put into other people reading this that I've broken some rules, which is an assumption based off of nothing -- I've broken no rules. I never said I had to break rules to have fun. That being said....

Yes, this is a huge community, but does that make any one person less valuable or worthy of proper respect, treament, and love?

Vocal minority?....One thing I vividly remember from my grandmother...She used to say, "Just because you're the only one standing, doesn't mean those who are sitting are right." Just because only a few have the courage or perhaps patience to speak out, doesn't mean they're wrong. I allude to Martin Luther again --- without him standing up and speaking out against wrong, we wouldn't be sitting here having this discussion.

I'm just tired of these "Council meetings" going nowhere...

I was told by Tek that there was going to be some huge effort on part of ToJ leadership to "repair" things between them and other members of the CGA, yet I never saw it come to fruition. I never saw that glory-post that was supposed to come from Elite. I never saw that extra effort that was so widely flaunted by the leadership to other, apparently lesser, groups and members. I love you guys, but I swear, this sounds like it's turning into a bloody soap opera --- I just want fairness in judgement, love, and brothership. That is being restricted to a few members, and if it pushes them away from Christians, or even Christ, then they are certainly worth your time and effort.

--Van...
 
Odd that you mention the whole proactive/reactive comparison....

I've always been under the impression that proaction was superior to reaction, and perhaps your INACTION is what is causing this fuss right now.

No Elite, this was not directed at the CS admins or leadership directly, this was directed at ToJ's leadership. ToJ. As in everyone, not just the CS chapter.

I have no problem with you either, Elite! You're a great guy, fun and friendly, and generally a pretty patient guy -- my problem is that you're one of the few. I find it a bonus to my post to have only you, atown, and Kidan post, people who only play CS or are ToJ:CS admins. I think this further's my point that the rest of the leadership is perhaps too detatched from their tasks as Christians and too attached to their position of leader.

And yes, there has been much favoritism shown to certain members and not so much to others, and yes, I will stand firmly by that. I've been the target of both! I'll leave that discussion for behind closed doors, but I think it appropriate for anyone reading this to know that I do have a stance on it and I'm not flip flopping. *Cough* John Kerry........*hack*

I'm tired of people "Taking sides", too. I've flat out told 3R members to ditch the "Stupid ToJ" comments, apparently the only group I have ANY influence over, lest I cut them. I'm now asking ToJ to do the same --Stop the hating, start the loving...I honestly believe that if you guys would take ten minutes out to LOVE us, you'd feel less like we're "out to get you". In all things, show love. That's all I'm doing here, but now I fear criticism from not only ToJ, but my fellow 3R members. Yes, I get tired of hearing about how so and so banned who, about who said what about who...I just want you guys to do your part and I'll get my guys to do my part, so we can stop being separate in cause and reason, and start being united in the body of Christ. I'm not on any side here, except the side of Christ, only trying to repair relationships and prevent more from becoming bad. I love you fellahs, as I said, or else I'd probably be elsewhere talking about you badly behind your backs. Instead, I've brought my thoughts and feelings to the public view because I believe it better to show what you believe then hide it behind a rough exterior.
 
Van - as for the breaking the rules, I stated, that is the message I got from your initial post.  The way I read it, it seems to say that people were getting punished, and the issues were those punishements were stopping people from having fun.

I never said, nor implied that you personally were breaking rules.

Now, if you were trying to clarify your position on my posting (such as "Kidan, are you saying that you are allowed to ban people merely because you want to."  As a response to a posting, then no it should not be deleted.  Yet if you came in and said "Kidan, you just ban people whenever you feel like, regardless of whether they've done something or not." as an inital post. That's worth being deleted, because it's just argumenatry, and fairly gauranted to get me in an argumentative mood.


Anyways, back to the rules, my intention was not to give people a biased view of the topic, rather, your inital posting, seems (to me) that the issues at hand are either abusive leadership, or people not wanting to be punished for breaking the rules, or even some odd combination of both.


The council meetings, we have had 4 (maybe 5) of them.  Each one has lasterd at least two hours.  We are putting things into play, we have made a number of changes.  We are doing things.  The problem is, a huge number of things that we've done have all been behind the scenes things.  Issues dealing with how things are ran, from a chapter-perspective.  

If we do have leadership that is being as abusive or ornery, then you need to get it to a council member, so the council can handle it.  I for one, have not seen anything brought, by any Non-Council ToJ member, concerning  SPECIFIC issues regarding the leadership of ToJ.


As for Elite's post to the CS Chapter. It's been up for a while now
http://www.cgalliance.org/cgi-bin....;t=5464


I know I for one, am fair in my judgement, love and brothership.  It's just that I am a stickler for rules.
smile.gif





and btw, I am not merely a CS Admin, I'm also a council member, a UT Admin, and a DoD admin.  Its not that the rest of the leadership ignores things, its just that most of the leadership are CS admins as well.
 
Boogah boogah boogah, i'm BLIND

Yeah, well, I read it now, so that's all good. But yeah, I understand what you say Kidan, it's just hard to feel like there's ANY objective stance on ToJ's side simply for that reason -- a lot of the leaders are admins and either have some presumed dislike for certain members, 3R being the foremost in my mind, simply because I'm a member of it. I'm sure you guys talk, just like everyone talks, and it's bound to get around, "Yeah, 3R was being a nuisance"...I know if one of MY friends were to tell me a certain group was being troublesome, I'd probably be quicker to stomp the admin stick, my big stick of thwackage. Though at least later I'd look back and try to be objective about it, then try to repair whatever damage I may have personally caused a person and/or people. I just ask that you guys reach out as Christians first, then admins later. If you appeal to someone's spiritual side, you're much more likely to get an "Okay" as opposed to an, "I HAET U OMG" from their carnal side.

Yeah....I'm done for now.
 
Van, who do you think runs the prayer forums, prayer newsletter, daily devotionals and trying to get bible studies together?  It is not any member past or present that belongs to 3R.  Get a clue.  In the ministry eh.  What are you doing to advance Christianity in 3R?  Don't point fingers at us because of your lack of initiative and failings with your own group.  You lack of activity in this group (ToJ) just further inforces how out of touch you are.  To come in here and complain after spending years of sitting on your hands not helping out.  I have one thing to say to you, "Get out of our way Satan".  God continues to bless us at every turn.  We are always thankful of that.  There are times that tests are put infront of us.  And since we are faithful, we see it for what it is, a wedge between us and God.  That is what I see from you and your dissenting few.

I am sorry, but your group (oh that would be 3R) was given the benefit of the doubt.  But then they started breaking rules and causing problems.  We have tried repeatetly to get you and your group to understand that.  It is becoming increasingly clear that you are nothing but a bunch of griefers.  I am sorry but respect is earned.  Your members have done nothing to earn it.  That is fine, you guys continue to show what you are made of.  You are only here to take what you can get and spit on anything else.  Your members don't contribute anything spiritual or worthwhile to this group.  You are a bunch of leaches that smell fresh meat.  I hate to say this but the leaders of ToJ have known this for a long time now.  We were hopeful and prayful that things would turn around.  That maybe having some of your members being punished for their actions would clue your group into the fact that you can't do whatever you want and think you can get away with it.  But that is just not the case.

Van, I am sorry, but you are either with us or against us.  You and your members have made it clear from the get go and even in these posts and previous posts that you are against us.  Get out of our way, because my God is all powerful, maker of the heavens and earth and moves mountains.  He amazes me everyday and  He won't let a petty bunch of mooches slow down his work.  So, good luck with 3R.  I hope and pray for you guys, but I think it is time to cut you guys loose.  You need to find somewhere else to cause trouble, because the only thing you will find here are bunch of stout Christian ready and willing to defend our believes and each other.

The out of touch and inept leadership (as van would you have you believe):

Tek - Runs both CGA and ToJ. He has kept them running for years now.  And guess what, they continue to grow, he must be doing something right.  He is our leader who sets our direction.  And let me tell you something, God has layed on his heart great visions of what this group can be and his passion is to see them get done.  That has never been in question.
Rizz - The glue that holds us all together.  He handles all member issues, oversees the prayer forums and prayer newsletter along with doing devotionals.  Rizz is the driving force behind a lot of our projects.
Kidan - Works on the daily devotional and is both a spiritual and moral compass giving us insight into the minds of the youth that come here as he is a youth pastor himself.
Thaddius - Thad is our treasuer and is working on one of our most important issues right now.  Becoming an Non Profit Orginization.
HeIsCommingSoon - Besides helping out with legal issues with the NPO and computer problems aside, he is working on setting up a Medal of Honor server for us.  He also donates his time and bandwidth to host the TeamSpeak server for both CGA and ToJ.
Elihu - Another leader who helps guide the direction ToJ goes in.  He organizes our council meetings and keeps us on task.
Gods_Peon - I think his name says it all.  And that is the way he is.  A tireless worker for God that brings insight to our council.
Elite - Leader of the biggest and most active chapter in ToJ.

Those are just a few of our council members and what they do for ToJ.  Van, in five minutes, they bring more to the table then you will ever bring with 10 pages of this dissent your are trying to sow right now.
 
Vanaze my post was mainly saying that i disagree quite a bit ith 3Rs actions and comments on the boards, they have seemed disrepsectful in their manner. and actually i do know most of them, and have gamed with them alot so dont say that idont know them at all. and yes ur post may not be totally disrespectful, however when u in a way attack the leadership/admins (admins counts here as well, some call them the moderators but admins is better
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) to me it is disrespectful since when u signed up here you were bound by the rules and their decisions whether or not u agreed with it and should not be behaving in such a way hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I've always been under the impression that proaction was superior to reaction, and perhaps your INACTION is what is causing this fuss right now.
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As you can see, there has been some action. We are trying very hard to repair things, however, it's not an easy task and will require the cooperation of both the leadership and players.  

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]No Elite, this was not directed at the CS admins or leadership directly, this was directed at ToJ's leadership.  ToJ.  As in everyone, not just the CS chapter. I have no problem with you either, Elite!  You're a great guy, fun and friendly, and generally a pretty patient guy -- my problem is that you're one of the few.  I find it a bonus to my post to have only you, atown, and Kidan post, people who only play CS or are ToJ:CS admins.  I think this further's my point that the rest of the leadership is perhaps too detatched from their tasks as Christians and too attached to their position of leader.
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I felt that it was, but I don't know what you are thinking so, okay. I can tell you though, that the CS leadership I know is very busy. I know some are at work, some involved in other things but they always are watching and posting. Heck, some stay up until 2-3am to monitor the server and be available when trouble arises. These guys do a lot behind the scenes, and I can't express my gratitude to them. They do things like write prayer requests, pay for the server from their own pockets, dedicate time to have meetings and discuss how to better ToJ. These are just a few things! They are not detached, let me tell you! They do so much for this community!

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]And yes, there has been much favoritism shown to certain members and not so much to others, and yes, I will stand firmly by that.  I've been the target of both!  I'll leave that discussion for behind closed doors, but I think it appropriate for anyone reading this to know that I do have a stance on it and I'm not flip flopping. *Cough* John Kerry........*hack*
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If you wouldn't mind privately giving me some examples, maybe we can try and get this resolved. Maybe I'm blind and dont' see it?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I'm tired of people "Taking sides", too.  I've flat out told 3R members to ditch the "Stupid ToJ" comments, apparently the only group I have ANY influence over, lest I cut them.  I'm now asking ToJ to do the same --Stop the hating, start the loving...I honestly believe that if you guys would take ten minutes out to LOVE us, you'd feel less like we're "out to get you".  In all things, show love.  That's all I'm doing here, but now I fear criticism from not only ToJ, but my fellow 3R members.  Yes, I get tired of hearing about how so and so banned who, about who said what about who...I just want you guys to do your part and I'll get my guys to do my part, so we can stop being separate in cause and reason, and start being united in the body of Christ.  I'm not on any side here, except the side of Christ, only trying to repair relationships and prevent more from becoming bad.  I love you fellahs, as I said, or else I'd probably be elsewhere talking about you badly behind your backs.  Instead, I've brought my thoughts and feelings to the public view because I believe it better to show what you believe then hide it behind a rough exterior.
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I admit, 3R has left a bad taste in our mouths - but the letter written to the community just goes to show we're not out to hate. We've gotten ourselves (the community as a whole) into a rut, and we all need to work together to get out of the rut. I guess I just didn't appreciate the tone of the messages from your members - and yes I realize I could've read it wrong.
 
Wow, way to go for the personal attacks, Plankeye.

I've never had a problem with you, and I still don't. That's exactly what I'm talking about, when I say favoritism. I could never had gotten away with questioning someone's motives, as well as insulting my stance with God. I just lost a great deal of respect for you, Plankeye. I never thought I'd see the day when leaders had to go for a personal attack to prove whatever point they might have. I applaud you for proving MY point.

Perhaps now is the time you will what I'm talking about, Elite? Rizz? Atown? Perhaps you should go pray about what you just said, Plankeye.

In this past week, I've held the hand of a man while he died, I prayed with him while he bled his blood on me. In this past week, I've led half a dozen people to Christ. In this past week, I've turned 3 enemies into friends and convinced them to come to church with me. I sit here with tears in my eyes now to know that you could dare say such a thing to me. In this past week, I've had a close friend completely betray my trust, twice, yet I've still found it in me to love and cherish them. I'm sorry that you're too busy trying to personally attack me to get to know who I am. Once again, that's what I'm talking about. Reach out with love, not hate.

If you really, really want to question who *I* am, maybe you should first get to know me.

ToJ, if this is who will be representing your group, then I daresay it's not something I want to be associated with. I've never once turned my back on ToJ, and Plankeye, just because you don't see the things I do doesn't mean I don't. I really am seriously hurt and confused by your remarks. All I have to say is how dare you.

I will no longer post until you guys have things sorted. I'll be about if you need me -- Tek can inform you of how to contact me if you have any trouble.

God bless and blessed be your walks,
Vanaze
 
The Greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

He called a little child and had him stand among them.  And he said:  "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.  Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."  - Matthew 18.1-4 NIV

Judging Others
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged.  For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be mesured to you.
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? . . . You hypocite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." - Matthew 7.1-5

The Greatest Commandment
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
 Jesus replied: " ' Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'  This is the first and greatest commandment.  And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'  All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." - Matthew 22.36-40

Finally, "Starting a quarrel is like breaching a dam; so drop the matter before a dispute breaks out." - Proverbs 17.14
You are all my friends, but if one of you has a problem with another please bring it up with them personally (Matthew 18.15-17).

Let our only anger be a righteous anger, and let us love one another as we should.  Let us remain humble and pure, and above all else faithful to you, Lord.
 
I would like to apologize to Van and the members of 3R.  I attacked you because ToJ is very personal to me as it is to a lot of us.  But that is no reason for me to use the language I did nor question your individual faith.  It was pure anger at a situation that has been festering for far to long and a poor choice on my part to act on it.

I attacked you because of my inability to effect change on your group and get you to fit the ideals of how I see a Christian gamer should behave.  That too is no reason to attack you or 3R.

My attacks were out of pure rage and frustation at this whole situation, and Vanaze is right, I should not act out in hate as I was so quick to do.

I have been very convicted of my actions of late.  I need to revaluate why I am here and get back to what I do best. So, I have resigned my position on the council.  I'll leave leadership issues to those with a heart for understanding and longer fuse than I personally have.
 
Plankeye, I've never wanted anything but the best for ToJ, and I've tried my best to do what I can for ToJ. Even as of late, when readying up for school and preparing my sister for her wedding, which is tomorrow and then will be over, thank God =]...Even now, I still try to find 10 minutes in my prayer time to pray for the strength of this gathering of Christians, this wing of the Church, in hopes that its ministry can reach far and wide into the world..For that, I know God is working here..

For that, I also know that you have a heart for God, or you wouldn't be here. Your understanding is great, but your mind is sorta like mine -- think first, Love later =]. I'm a thinker, an "intellectual". I try to rationalize things.....Only in this past year have I realized there is no rationalizing certain things. I came to understand there is no rationalizing the power of the Almighty, nor is there any rationalizing the Love He has the ability to fill you with. When you did speak harshly to me, Plankeye, it hurt, because you were one of the "uppers" in ToJ. I liken it to having a harsh word spoken to you from a pastor, or perhaps a deacon..Not something you'd like to have happen.....But because I knew God would use it, as He does with everything, I kept loving you and knowing that His Love conquers all things. In this, I knew that YOU still loved me, through your anger and frustration -- I've led big groups before, and people I've seen as trouble makers have often time frustrated me to the point where I nearly mixed words with them, so I know how you felt. Your ability to come amongst your peers and to take such drastic measures to prove your conviction says legions of things about your character and relationship with Christ.

God is greater than all, than you, than me, so let's put the past behind us and move on.

"Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see His banners go"

Vanaze
 
apologies... i should have read the last few posts..

I have a problem that i cant read large blocks of text... >_< But its another sign that ToJ works together... Someone pointed out my mistake within 2 mins of my post and i had the option to apologise and correct it ;)
 
I never even saw it, I've been at the church setting up for my sister's wedding tomorrow...taking a much deserved break. I think I broke my pinky =[.

Blah, oh well, pray for my sister and her husband-to-be, people! (And my pinky? =])

Van
 
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