ewoksrule
Active Member
Well said Abba San. If you want to truly love God you will love the Church.
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Reformation
- Thread starter legitnoob
- Start date
Well I didn't say that I didn't love the church! Isn't correcting people a labor of love? Isn't that showing love? My love of the church pushes me to want to see it work effectively and that of the early church working with the gifts of the spirit! I want to see the sick healed by the shadow of believers through the Holy Spirit. The diffrence between the church of acts and the church now is lack of vision in the church. The church as a whole has lost understanding of our mission or they have just become calast to it. If you have a church filled with people who believe in God but don't know God then there is something wrong! If I may asked are you not concerned for these people who believe they are going to heaven but doesn't have a relationship with God! Do I have to quote versus or can u see where I'm going? And if this is the spotless bride in which Christ speakers of then y did He come and die bc in alot I see no change between them before and after and that's the church's fault bc lack of decipleship like Kahiel and I mentioned!
Abba San
Legacy of Elijah [LoE] - Proud Grandfather
Gosh, legitnoob, I'm not even sure what to say. There are so many issues in your last post. I'll just respond piece by piece.
This very church you are speaking ill of IS the bride of Christ. He is doing everything to prepare her for that day when she will be presented radiant and pure, without blemish, to Himself. The church, in the here and now, will never be perfect. It is a bunch of people. It is not an organization, a religion, a building, a statement of faith, or any technology. The church is people in relationship with Christ. Dirty, sinful, petty, human, hurtful, prideful people. Go figure...it seems like Jesus could have picked better people than prostitutes and tax collectors and fishermen. But he didn't choose the religious and pious. He chose people like us, with all our blemishes to make radiant and pure. And that day will come...when He comes...and not before. That is why he came and died.
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." Matthew 7:1-5 (NIV)
Can you imagine if Jesus said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa! Don't talk to me about that fellow's walk with me until you sort out this little area of your life, (you pick the area)." He says that it is hypocritical of us. I do not want to be on the receiving end of that conversation.
But it is Saturday afternoon and you have caught me in (or propelled me into) preaching mode. Sorry about that.
In most cases correcting people is not a labor of love. Most of the time I see that happening in the church it is judgment or arrogance.
I hope you don't have to see "the sick healed by the shadow of believers" in order for a church to be healthy. We are a Baptist church and we help people discover and utilize their spiritual gifts. We are not that unusual, just not charismatic.
As I said earlier - the early church had as many problems as today's church, including people who went along for the ride without really being full blown followers of Christ. Churches in the first century lost their vision, and churches today have a clear sense of vision. The mission has always been the same - go, make disciples, baptize, teach. Jesus was pretty lear what our mission is.
Absolutely - we agree on that...BUT...that has always been the problem in church life. People are in the process of getting to know God and people are in different stages of that journey. It was true when Jesus was with his disciples. It was true in the churches Paul planted. It is true today.
Funny you should ask - and, yes, you may ask - I've given my life to winning the lost and making disciples because of my concern for those people...especially those who have no relationship with God.
No, you don't have to quote verses. I just don't see where you are going with the generalizations about the church. If not all churches are doing what you claim, then why lump them all together? Or, why even say, "most"? What would be helpful is to tell us what YOU are doing in YOUR church to win the lost and help them be more faithful followers of Jesus. What are YOU doing to bring about reformation in YOUR church?
If?...IF?...the church IS. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. Ephesians 5:25-27 (NIV)
This very church you are speaking ill of IS the bride of Christ. He is doing everything to prepare her for that day when she will be presented radiant and pure, without blemish, to Himself. The church, in the here and now, will never be perfect. It is a bunch of people. It is not an organization, a religion, a building, a statement of faith, or any technology. The church is people in relationship with Christ. Dirty, sinful, petty, human, hurtful, prideful people. Go figure...it seems like Jesus could have picked better people than prostitutes and tax collectors and fishermen. But he didn't choose the religious and pious. He chose people like us, with all our blemishes to make radiant and pure. And that day will come...when He comes...and not before. That is why he came and died.
Probably true, but not our place to judge. Jesus warns us not to be judging another's relationship with the Lord, but to look to our own issues rather than their issues.
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." Matthew 7:1-5 (NIV)
Can you imagine if Jesus said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa! Don't talk to me about that fellow's walk with me until you sort out this little area of your life, (you pick the area)." He says that it is hypocritical of us. I do not want to be on the receiving end of that conversation.
And here I definitely disagree with you. It is not the church's fault. Three reasons: First from experiencing godly disciples of Christ, people really following Jesus closely, who came from communist countries where there were no churches (at least not legally). They had a Bible and a heart for God, that's it. No discipleship program. No church teaching and encouragement. They loved God and loved others. No church to be at fault or not be at fault. If people do not change it is not the church's fault, but their own. Second, experiencing people in my own church where people are growing in the Lord because we do emphasize the need to grow, and sitting right next to them is someone who has not grown a bit after years of sitting in that same spot, next to that same person, under the same teaching, in the same church. Not the church's fault, but a decision they made to stay right where they were. Third, God is not going to hold various organizations accountable, He is going to hold people accountable. He won't tell a church, "Get away from me, I never knew you." He will tell people that. He will fault teachers and people with itching ears, but the church will not be held at fault...the church won't even be when it comes to standing before God.
But it is Saturday afternoon and you have caught me in (or propelled me into) preaching mode. Sorry about that.
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Lloren
Christian Gamers Alliance Forums Administrator
I heard it said the other day. "As a rule of thumb, if you desire to correct someone you probably shouldn't. If you are dreading to talk with them, then it's a good chance you should."
Ok to get back to the original question does anyone else hearing God call for a reforming of the structure the church has adopted. This mindset that numbers is more important then spiritual growth. That the building, pastor, denomination is the focal point of the serves's instead of Christ. That Yahweh God the God that rained fire from heaven that burnt up the offerings when Elijah fought against the priests of bale. That same God the parted the Red Sea, created the universe, sent His only Son the die so we can fellowship with Him! Is the same God that calls us heal the sick, cast out demons, raise the dead, preach the Gospel of Christ with such a fire that it will bring repentance to the nations. That I all!
Patriot
Active Member
Can't say I do, since this does not describe my church (local body).
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ewoksrule
Active Member
My current church is built around discipleship, I don't see this OP question as relevant to me or my experience.
But I understand where you are coming from and think there are churches that need revival.
But I understand where you are coming from and think there are churches that need revival.
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Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
I am going to (against my better judgement) pop my head into the torrid rapids of this thread to say this:
There's nothing wrong with desiring to see the mighty hand of God in action in our churches.
But it's not the church that does the miracles
It's God.
So if you don't see miracles happening in your church,
Ask Him why.
So far I see a lot of focus on getting our miracles back,
but we never had them.
God had them, and he still has them.
There's nothing wrong with desiring to see the mighty hand of God in action in our churches.
But it's not the church that does the miracles
It's God.
So if you don't see miracles happening in your church,
Ask Him why.
So far I see a lot of focus on getting our miracles back,
but we never had them.
God had them, and he still has them.
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
Also, time to ask for us all to check ourselves.
I'm sure that many of the people posting here are sure that legitnoob is wrong, and that's the driving force behind posts, but... go easy on him.
It's one thing to say "he's wrong, I must correct him," but sometimes I'm wondering if that's the whole story.
It's not right to post just to show how wrong he is. We need to post to show how much God loves him.
I'm sure that many of the people posting here are sure that legitnoob is wrong, and that's the driving force behind posts, but... go easy on him.
It's one thing to say "he's wrong, I must correct him," but sometimes I'm wondering if that's the whole story.
It's not right to post just to show how wrong he is. We need to post to show how much God loves him.
Patriot
Active Member
I don't think he is wrong necessarily. There are a fair number of churches that don't do what they should. It is entirely possible that in specific areas the only selection of churches available are from this set. In these cases the individual churches do need reform.
What I object to is the general grouping of bad churches with good churches and declaring that the Church needs reforming. That implies that the good churches are not acting appropriately and must change as well. If I was too heavy-handed in my approach I ask forgiveness.
Not to say my church is perfect (I wouldn't be allowed to attend if it were). I see areas in my church where they excel and areas where they could improve. But in that case I don't see reformation as the answer. Actually, the primary area where I see a need I think weighs on my heart because 1) it's one of my spiritual gifts and 2) I haven't done anything about it myself yet. So the reformation in my church needs to happen in my own heart rather than in the body. . .
What I object to is the general grouping of bad churches with good churches and declaring that the Church needs reforming. That implies that the good churches are not acting appropriately and must change as well. If I was too heavy-handed in my approach I ask forgiveness.
Not to say my church is perfect (I wouldn't be allowed to attend if it were). I see areas in my church where they excel and areas where they could improve. But in that case I don't see reformation as the answer. Actually, the primary area where I see a need I think weighs on my heart because 1) it's one of my spiritual gifts and 2) I haven't done anything about it myself yet. So the reformation in my church needs to happen in my own heart rather than in the body. . .
Kahiel
Active Member
Sorry if I sounded as if I were being hyper critical of the Church or a church. I didn't intend to be, but because of various things in my background a critical spirit occasionally peaks out.
Neirai, well put. The point I was trying to make was that the churches which sacrifice their values and obedience to God for the purposes of being inclusive are on the decline. Satan also likes it when we treat our churches as a country club rather than as God's Church. I've seen God do miracles and it has been awesome. I've seen God heal a man who's back hurt to the point he couldn't stand up strait. I saw with a good friend who was told that his IF his son lived, he would be a vegetable. Only to see God heal that young man and see him able to walk, drive and work again. Praise God! Our job is to remain obedient to God so that HE can use us to build his kingdom and bring glory to Himself. When we take our eyes off God, that's when Satan comes in and erodes the church. I don't think a reformation in the structure of the church is what needs to be done. I think we need a revival where we as a body and a nation turn back to the God of our forefathers and obey the Word he has given us.
Neirai, well put. The point I was trying to make was that the churches which sacrifice their values and obedience to God for the purposes of being inclusive are on the decline. Satan also likes it when we treat our churches as a country club rather than as God's Church. I've seen God do miracles and it has been awesome. I've seen God heal a man who's back hurt to the point he couldn't stand up strait. I saw with a good friend who was told that his IF his son lived, he would be a vegetable. Only to see God heal that young man and see him able to walk, drive and work again. Praise God! Our job is to remain obedient to God so that HE can use us to build his kingdom and bring glory to Himself. When we take our eyes off God, that's when Satan comes in and erodes the church. I don't think a reformation in the structure of the church is what needs to be done. I think we need a revival where we as a body and a nation turn back to the God of our forefathers and obey the Word he has given us.
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
@Kahiel -- great testimonies! Also, I agree that "sell-out" churches are on the decline. In numbers, actually. God is calling them back to him. Thank God 
Also, in case I don't remember to say it: You are totally forgiven. I also speak from a critical spirit when I do not keep an eye out. I know it too well.
@legitnoob -- I do actually feel the call towards change, although I feel that the change is actually a change towards more unity, rather than to another, more elite subclass of church. I think we may see the unification of many churches soon. I pray for it and bless it.
Also, on the subject of miracles. As Kahiel points out, God does miracles and it is awesome.
You speak of desiring miracles in the church. This is good.
But I feel that what you really are asking for is miracles in you! Which is more awesome!
Let me challenge you to walk in miracles. Ask God for them. Obey him when he tells you to do things. Listen for his voice.
Go pray for people to be healed.
Pray for God to help you to serve people. Ask for visions. Ask for his love.
Realistically I'm in the middle of this journey. It's scary, but it's amazing. Having pictures in my head, praying them for people, trying to serve.
It's hard because I'm so egotistical that I get in the way a lot trying to make these gifts about me.
I feel like you're more mature in that realm than I am, because you want the miracles for the church and not for yourself. I often hear people saying "I want this gift, I want that gift." You're saying "I want to see more of God's power in the church." That is maturity and it comes from God and I applaud and bless that spirit in you.
Now, be the conduit. Pursue God's spirit. Pursue his will.
Also, in case I don't remember to say it: You are totally forgiven. I also speak from a critical spirit when I do not keep an eye out. I know it too well.
@legitnoob -- I do actually feel the call towards change, although I feel that the change is actually a change towards more unity, rather than to another, more elite subclass of church. I think we may see the unification of many churches soon. I pray for it and bless it.
Also, on the subject of miracles. As Kahiel points out, God does miracles and it is awesome.
You speak of desiring miracles in the church. This is good.
But I feel that what you really are asking for is miracles in you! Which is more awesome!
Let me challenge you to walk in miracles. Ask God for them. Obey him when he tells you to do things. Listen for his voice.
Go pray for people to be healed.
Pray for God to help you to serve people. Ask for visions. Ask for his love.
Realistically I'm in the middle of this journey. It's scary, but it's amazing. Having pictures in my head, praying them for people, trying to serve.
It's hard because I'm so egotistical that I get in the way a lot trying to make these gifts about me.
I feel like you're more mature in that realm than I am, because you want the miracles for the church and not for yourself. I often hear people saying "I want this gift, I want that gift." You're saying "I want to see more of God's power in the church." That is maturity and it comes from God and I applaud and bless that spirit in you.
Now, be the conduit. Pursue God's spirit. Pursue his will.
Ok I just want to say I'm sorry for generalizing what I've heard to all the church but each church has areas it needs to work on as well. My church for example needs to work coming together and study more together and sharpen one another. And this is something I've been praying about a lot and working on specifically with my youth. But the churches where I live are to put it bluntly just dead. No power in them at all no Salvations, the people that attend these church's are just as unhappy, depressed, and lost as those in world. Don't get me wrong there are also some who have sparks and flames but when they ask to do stuff they are told no or run off. Like my brother he is a youth pastor and he is like walking on egg shells with his pastor bc his pastor will find anything to grip about. I would give examples but I want to get off of this and address something else. You guys have asked what have I been doing about it! Well I've spent a lot of time in prayer and fasting, I mean I have been focusing on a calling God has placed on me(Prophesy) which takes a lot of prayer and seeking God to hear Gods still small voice. But I want others to walk in gifts too. I want others to see there potential. I want to see the church operate in the spiritual gifts but most importantly in athority that we have in Christ to bring salvation to the world. Hope u understand where I'm coming from sorry if conveyed my question in a manner that seemed rude and arrogant.
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
Prayer and fasting? That sounds like the right path to me!