Question for the Resident Athiests

[Dark Virtue]

My biggest issue here is in myself now. How many people have I missed witnessing to because I spend my time discussing whether God is real or not with someone that is afraid to step out in faith first and then let God reveal himself?

Ooh, ouch, that hurt

What you fail to realize is that I HAVE stepped out in faith, I was once a Christian. The problem is that God didn't reveal himself to me. I found an overwhelming amount of nothingness.

No one is forcing you to be here. If you feel your time and efforts are better spent elsewhere, so be it. I find it hightly doubtful though, that you witness to people that don't ask you questions.

Like I said, there is no proof except through personal experience. Peter walked on water because he had faith and focused on Jesus. When he took his focus off Jesus he began to sink.

So how do you explain those of us that, through personal experience, have had no contact with God or Jesus...even though we actively sought them out?

How you treat me is irrelevent. Personally you could call me stupid, ignorant, foolish, etc. I wouldn't take offense or care. God knows me, and knows I try my best to witness. Do I fall short? Always, but that's the beauty of his gift. He knows we are not perfect.

It may be irrelevant to you, but it's not irrelevant to me. I don't live my life debasing and defaming others for kicks. I simply don't need a diety to force me to live a moral life.

One day everyone will have their proof of God's existence, and I am sorry for those that I didn't help, that I could have. I did my best and God will know that and forgive me. That is why Jesus came here.

Guess what? YOU AREN'T HELPING ANYONE! Isn't that what you said yourself, just now in this thread? If you can't furnish proof or evidence, what help do you serve? How are you helping? No offense intended here, this is a genuine question.

What is your purpose here...honestly?

I've stated this many, many times. You can do a search for a more detailed answer, but the quick answer is that I want to understand why you believe what you believe. Because up to this point, it all seems very illogical and unreasonable.

Do you want proof of God?

Of course I do, but I'm not asking you to furnish me with proof. There are those, however, that claim to have "proof" or "evidence". Those are the people that I ask for proof. Invariably, I find they have a very slanted definition of proof.

Or do you want to disprove him?

You can't prove a negative, as I have stated. YOU are the one claiming the positive, aren't you? Thus, the onus is on you to prove your statement. Note that I have NEVER claimed to disbelieve in God or claim God doesn't exist. To do so would be foolish...just as foolish to believe the opposite without proof.

If you want proof...then we do need to pray for you. If you want to disprove him, then we are wasting time. I have my proof, for me and my family, and I thank God daily for all that he has done.

Why do you need to pray for me when I have prayed for myself?

 

[Dark Virtue]

The only thing you are ignorant of is the problems that Pascal's Wager creates.

Are you willing to surf the web for relevant information or would you like me to point out its flaws?

 

[aka Ash]

Ooh, ouch, that hurt

What you fail to realize is that I HAVE stepped out in faith, I was once a Christian. The problem is that God didn't reveal himself to me. I found an overwhelming amount of nothingness.

No one is forcing you to be here. If you feel your time and efforts are better spent elsewhere, so be it. I find it hightly doubtful though, that you witness to people that don't ask you questions.

Well at least I have a little, stress little, insight into you. Of course people would have questions. Lord knows I did, and still do. Not about God's existence anymore, but why some people believe one way or another, yet we all have the same bible. (except for Catholics, Jehovah Witness', and Mormans)

So how do you explain those of us that, through personal experience, have had no contact with God or Jesus...even though we actively sought them out?

There really is no way to explain it. I can't nor won't pretend to know why God does or doesn't do things. All I can do is relate my experiences.

It may be irrelevant to you, but it's not irrelevant to me. I don't live my life debasing and defaming others for kicks. I simply don't need a diety to force me to live a moral life.

And that is GREAT! I don't need a diety to force me to live a moral life either. Some people do though, and that is fine also. I am not motivated to do right because of God, though through the Holy Spirit I probably do more right than wrong.

Guess what? YOU AREN'T HELPING ANYONE! Isn't that what you said yourself, just now in this thread? If you can't furnish proof or evidence, what help do you serve? How are you helping? No offense intended here, this is a genuine question.

You say I'm not helping anyone. I have said that my testimonies and witnessing may help other Christians, it may help non-christians, I don't know. I don't have to prove God's existence to everyone, actually anyone, some of us have proof.

I've stated this many, many times. You can do a search for a more detailed answer, but the quick answer is that I want to understand why you believe what you believe. Because up to this point, it all seems very illogical and unreasonable.

I don't believe you'll ever understand, until you experience it for yourself. Just as I could argue that it would be good or bad to be as rich as Bill Gates, I would never truly understand without experiencing it. Logical? Guess What? I'm not a Vulcan. Is it logical to meet a woman, fall in love and get married, have 5 or 6 kids? No...Life is much easier when you only have to take care of 1 pwerson. Is it worth it? Absolutely. How mant decisions do we make in our life that just aren't logical?

Of course I do, but I'm not asking you to furnish me with proof. There are those, however, that claim to have "proof" or "evidence". Those are the people that I ask for proof. Invariably, I find they have a very slanted definition of proof.

I finally understand what you are saying. I agree with you here. If anyone says they can prove of God's existence Scientifically or logically I'd like to see them try. I don't believe it can be done. I know He exists and the bible is his word. I have no scientific proof. This seems illogical, so be it.

You can't prove a negative, as I have stated. YOU are the one claiming the positive, aren't you? Thus, the onus is on you to prove your statement. Note that I have NEVER claimed to disbelieve in God or claim God doesn't exist. To do so would be foolish...just as foolish to believe the opposite without proof.

Yes it is foolish, but the scripture says...

1 Corinthians 1:25
For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

Why do you need to pray for me when I have prayed for myself?

Just a crazy illogical thing that alot of Christians do...pray for others. The best thing to do is pray for people with your convictions and not tell them that you are. I am sorry for not doing so.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Well at least I have a little, stress little, insight into you. Of course people would have questions. Lord knows I did, and still do. Not about God's existence anymore, but why some people believe one way or another, yet we all have the same bible. (except for Catholics, Jehovah Witness', and Mormans)

If Christians can't figure themselves out, you can only imagine the difficulty us nonChristians have

There really is no way to explain it. I can't nor won't pretend to know why God does or doesn't do things. All I can do is relate my experiences.

And all I can do is relate mine.

But here's the kicker. I don't need a desire to believe in the existence of Paris. I don't even need to travel to Paris to know that it exists. I can rely on PROOF, EVIDENCE and REASON to believe that it exists. And if need be, I can actually go there and experience it personally.

Christians make an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary proof to believe it. Yet, for all the talk of "proof", they are unable to furnish any to anyone other than themselves. That, in and of itself, is not PROOF, nor is it EVIDENCE.

And that is GREAT! I don't need a diety to force me to live a moral life either. Some people do though, and that is fine also. I am not motivated to do right because of God, though through the Holy Spirit I probably do more right than wrong.

Just so long as you recognize that morality doesn't need to come from a divine being. There are moral atheists just as there are moral Buddhists and moral Muslims.

You say I'm not helping anyone. I have said that my testimonies and witnessing may help other Christians, it may help non-christians, I don't know. I don't have to prove God's existence to everyone, actually anyone, some of us have proof.

You say that your testimonies may help non-Christians and that you don't know if it does or not. I'm here to tell you that it does NOT, for the simple reasons that I have already outlined. Again, you are misusing the term "proof". If you had proof, you could supply it to someone other than yourself. What you have is a BELIEF, not KNOWLEDGE.

You DO, actually, have to prove God's existence to someone: yourself. Not being able to logically prove God exists yet believing in him anyway is intellectually dishonest.

I don't believe you'll ever understand, until you experience it for yourself. Just as I could argue that it would be good or bad to be as rich as Bill Gates, I would never truly understand without experiencing it. Logical? Guess What? I'm not a Vulcan. Is it logical to meet a woman, fall in love and get married, have 5 or 6 kids? No...Life is much easier when you only have to take care of 1 pwerson. Is it worth it? Absolutely. How mant decisions do we make in our life that just aren't logical?

Vulcans have nothing to do with this discussion. However, you have brought up a good point. Emotions make us what we are, human. They also cloud our judgement. Look where emotions got Romeo and Juliet. This is why it is necessary to temper emotion with logic just as much as it is to temper logic with emotion to form a perfect symbiosis.

I finally understand what you are saying. I agree with you here. If anyone says they can prove of God's existence Scientifically or logically I'd like to see them try. I don't believe it can be done. I know He exists and the bible is his word. I have no scientific proof. This seems illogical, so be it.

I've gone through this point before, so I urge you to do some research on your own regarding some definitions. You do not have knowledge of God's existence, what you harbor is a belief in the existence of God. Look at the Paris example above. I KNOW Paris exists. You BELIEVE God exists. Just because you believe in something doesn't necessarily make it so. You may think this is splitting hairs, but when you research the differences, you will see there's a huge difference between those words.

I'm not exactly sure why you are content to be illogical. Why is that?

Just a crazy illogical thing that alot of Christians do...pray for others. The best thing to do is pray for people with your convictions and not tell them that you are. I am sorry for not doing so.

You kinda missed my point, so let me clarify. Why would your prayers differ any from the prayers I made for God to show himself to me? Are you inferring that God would listen to you over me? If so, why?

 

[Zeena]

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

 

[Dark Virtue]

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

And the scriptural reference for this is...?

I think there's a difference between having those traits and falling away. If you actually had those traits then you can't "fall away", that would take a concerted effort to turn your back on things you know. Turning away and falling away are different things.

 

[aka Ash]

All I can say DV is this...

I agree that to you it is illogical to you for me to believe in God. It makes no sense whatsoever, from your point of view.

But from my perspective it would be illogical for me to not acknowledge God as I know him and love him, through my life and experiences. You cannot even begin to understand my relationship with Him, for you have not experienced it.

So I have no problem being illogical...from your point of view. From mine I am totally logical.

I believe this is where we disagree, on our point of views. I accept that. No one sees things exactly the same.

 

[Dark Virtue]

All I can say DV is this...

I agree that to you it is illogical to you for me to believe in God. It makes no sense whatsoever, from your point of view.

But from my perspective it would be illogical for me to not acknowledge God as I know him and love him, through my life and experiences. You cannot even begin to understand my relationship with Him, for you have not experienced it.

So I have no problem being illogical...from your point of view. From mine I am totally logical.

I believe this is where we disagree, on our point of views. I accept that. No one sees things exactly the same.

Just so we're on the same page...would you mind explaining what you think my point of view is?

 

[Jeshurun]

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


Nothing is impossible with God!
How do you know what is impossible?
Matt.19:26 Jesus said, "with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible".

Do you think just because a christian so call falls away that God will do likewise to him?

Our God is a God of mercy/love and kindness.

Mark 9:23 Jesus said, "If you can! All things are possible to him who believes."

Are you saying that if when I pray for my christian brother who has fallen away that God will not restore him?

Are you saying that God ignores my prayers for my brother?

Are you saying that if my Christian brother repents that he will not be restored?

When you sinned today did you ask God to forgive you?

John 8:7 Jesus said, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

1 John 2:1-2 "My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

Have christians in these days we live in now become the future Pharisees?

 

[Zeena]

And the scriptural reference for this is...?

I think there's a difference between having those traits and falling away. If you actually had those traits then you can't "fall away", that would take a concerted effort to turn your back on things you know. Turning away and falling away are different things.

Hebrews 6:4-8
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Question is..

Have you EVER allowed God to shine His Light on you? Which, in turn would reveal the fact that you are a sinner in need of His saving Grace?
Have you EVER tasted of the heavenly gift and been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come?

If so..

 

[Dark Virtue]

Question is..

Have you EVER allowed God to shine His Light on you? Which, in turn would reveal the fact that you are a sinner in need of His saving Grace?

Yes I have.

But nothing happened.

 

[Zeena]

Yes I have.

But nothing happened.

Oh?

So then you also experienced the later?

Have you EVER tasted of the heavenly gift and been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come?

Can't have one without the other!

 

[Dark Virtue]

Oh?

So then you also experienced the later?



Can't have one without the other!

You've just painted yourself into a logical circle.

How am I supposed to let God's light shine on me if I haven't partaken in the gift of the holy spirit?

You're implying that God has to first imbue me with the Holy Spirit to understand him.

Is that so?

 

[Zeena]

You've just painted yourself into a logical circle.

How am I supposed to let God's light shine on me if I haven't partaken in the gift of the holy spirit?

You're implying that God has to first imbue me with the Holy Spirit to understand him.

Is that so?

The Holy Spirit does not need to be IN you to speak to you..

Luke 16:26
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luke 14:27
27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:33
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 7:34
Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

It's not a circle! It's a straight path..

John 6
23(Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks: )
When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither? Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I AM the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/b[
The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I AM that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Only He who decended is the One who ascended higher than the Heavens

John 10:34-36
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
John 13:37
Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 10:21
Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
Hebrews 12:26-27
Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

First comes faith, then comes marriage, then comes Jesus in a baby carriage

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2 Peter 1
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Zeena, you've exhuasted my patience. If your quotes and verses outweigh your personal contribution, I will ignore your post.

 

[Zeena]

LOL!

Ok, how about this..

Jesus IS the Holy Spirit..And of Him ye HAVE partaken, by your own admission

 

[Strong Fortress]

C. S. Lewis struggled with logic, but finally found his way to God. His writings are very good for finding out how he made the logical leap. If you want more specifics, ask notashamed. She has a lot of knowledge on C.S. Lewis.

 

[Dark Virtue]

C. S. Lewis struggled with logic, but finally found his way to God. His writings are very good for finding out how he made the logical leap. If you want more specifics, ask notashamed. She has a lot of knowledge on C.S. Lewis.

Trust me, I am quite familiar with CS Lewis and his works. As much as I'd love to go into it, that's a huge subject that merits its own thread.

If you'd like to discuss "Mere Christianity" or anything else, feel free to start a thread.

 

[Zeena]

LOL!

Ok, how about this..

Jesus IS the Holy Spirit..And of Him ye HAVE partaken, by your own admission

You said you have..Is this not true?

 

[Dark Virtue]

You said you have..Is this not true?

That depends on your definition of partaken.

With you, I have to ask

I'm not even sure I know what you mean by "partaken of Christ".

I definately went through the motions, but there was no substance. I sought and did not find, I asked and there was no answer, I prayed and found nothing.