nattyg
New Member
2 bosses each or 2 bosses total? besides, i tanked the last boss in ramparts as a mage!! so there's easily more than 2 
QQ MOAR
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Odale
Active Member
2 bosses each or 2 bosses total? besides, i tanked the last boss in ramparts as a mage!! so there's easily more than 2
Real raids... =P
And two in total, one per class between the two.
nattyg
New Member
locks = illidan and one of the dudes for hkm
mages = krosh & the dude from council
so 4
mages = krosh & the dude from council
so 4
nattyg
New Member
well, and i guess you have to add in leo too?
Plankeye
New Member
BD4L, I was referring to Galation's comment not yours about how paladins can't do all three at once.
But on your comment about healing hybrids, all 4 healing classes are hybrids. Priest (ranged dps/healer), Druid (melee dps/ranged dps/tank/healer), Shamans (ranged dps/melee dps/healer) and Paladins (melee dps/tank/healer).
But on your comment about healing hybrids, all 4 healing classes are hybrids. Priest (ranged dps/healer), Druid (melee dps/ranged dps/tank/healer), Shamans (ranged dps/melee dps/healer) and Paladins (melee dps/tank/healer).
Proudfoot
New Member
Now this is a valid argument and although I think being able to switch specs could be a good thing for really high end guilds I don't think most people need it (Redeemed probably won't use it much when deciding raid makeups). It might be a good idea to have the ability to have a PVE spec and a PVP spec that you could change to/from quickly if you stayed in the same talent tree. Blizzard has been working really hard at making every spec PVP and PVE viable with just a few talent choices to specialize in one or the other.
Sandric said:
Yup, all 4 healing classes are hybrids.
All 4 tanking classes are also hybrids. Death Knight(melee dps/tank), Warrior (melee dps/tank), Paladin (melee dps/tank/healer), and druid (melee dps/tank/healer/ranged dps)
Dps classes do not all have as much hybridity and 4 of them only do dps no matter what spec. However, since hybrids no longer provide unique buffs to enhance the "pure" dps there would be no reason to bring them if their dps was 10% lower then a "pure". If you wanted to have the most chance at success you would bring the exact number of tanks and healers you need for a specific encounter and then fill the raid with pure dps ONLY.
If pure dps classes are given a 2-5% dps advantage (which is what Blizz is aiming for) then you'll be right about where you need to be. There won't be a noticable difference and it shouldn't affect a raid leaders choices in who to bring. Players skill can make up for the 2-5% disadvantage while still allowing truely great pure dps players to top damage meters if they put forth the effort. Blizz said that hybrids in BC were at 25-30% disadvantage and some players skill could make up for that so... pure dps classes will need to step up thier game if they intend to stay on top. A little competition is always a good thing.
Odale
Active Member
The other two have very decent spell damage abilities, druids can tank as well (which can be taken care of in another thread all on it's own).
I can really only speak of Shadow Priests, a class that can only do maximum damage while in Shadowform, as you all know they cannot heal themselves in Shadowform. They can use Vampiric Embrace, but not all SP's have it.
I am not sure how well Elemental or Enhance Shamans healing is, but I know it is not spectacular.
The bottom line is Priests and Shamans cannot tank the way Paladins and Druids can.
They are "Jacks of all trades and masters of all of them". Which, IMO, really should not be the case. Why should I play anything else when Druids and Paladins can do everything.
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Avesther
New Member
In context, even though our hybrids can do all things in some form or another, they've never been asked to fill a position and take it away from somebody waiting on the wait list to take it.
ie...Sandric has never been asked to go and respec Ret to dps and have a tank come in to fill his tanking spot while a mage waited on the wait list to get in on the raid.
In context of Redeemed, I don't see this as an issue.
ie...Sandric has never been asked to go and respec Ret to dps and have a tank come in to fill his tanking spot while a mage waited on the wait list to get in on the raid.
In context of Redeemed, I don't see this as an issue.
Odale
Active Member
I'm not pointing out any one person, just the class in general.
Avesther
New Member
In general, I believe Redeemed leaders are not so pig headed to believe that it is better to bring only hybrids. Redeemed took mellee to Gruul and VR even though everybody else was talking about taking only ranged. Now other guilds may or may not have issues where raid\guild leaders only bringing hybrids but how does that affect Redeemed?
Odale
Active Member
That was a hypothetical question, by the way
Avesther
New Member
Hypotheticals are more often then not, shadows of real concerns.
Where
New Member
Using that logic a pally tank cannot heal themselves either and Ret is borderline since their main stat is STR now so they cant heal very well either.
The ultimate deal breaker is that a pure DPS toon, IE mage for example should have a lot better DPS gear than a tank that is gonna use an offspec so that is where the pure DPS should pull away from hybrids. As to the question of why should anyone play a pure DPS class... Because they want to? I played a rogue for a long time because I liked the class, I didn't chose to play for the utility of it or how many ways I could play him. I also chose to reroll as a pally tank because I wanted to switch it up to a tank class, I didn't want to be a healer or DPS with him, although I was willing to heal for the guild when needed but I was never good at DPS with him heh.
Bottom line is people play what they want to play, if you want to work your butt off and learn to get all you can get and be a ret pally like proudfoot then why should you remain nerfed and not be able to put out the DPS of an average player with a pure dps class? I think the dual spec will be more utility for the PVE and PVP spec instead of tanks and healers taking up DPS slots in raids, I know I would run a PVE tank spec and a PVP healer spec if possible so I could switch if needed for a healer in a pinch in PVE but I wouldn't be anywhere near as good as Aves so its not like I would replace him heh. Besides last I heard we are short tanks and had an abundance of healers for a little bit there so more hybrids FTW!
noname
New Member
we are short wheretoo tank.
we would like him back.
k thanks
we would like him back.
k thanks
nattyg
New Member
bringing utility (i.e. useful buffs and being able to perform multiple roles in a pinch) + multiple viable specs and the ability to excel at DPS and be only marginally below pure DPS classes is flat out wrong.
whoopty friggin' do - i can ice block...
but a pally can bubble, heal, dps more...or switch to healing if a necessary healer goes down; they may not do it as well as if they were specced for it, but the fact is - they can do it. i can bandage. go me.
a druid can pop out, heal, dps more
a shaman can...well, oh no, they interrupt their spell cycle to land a heal...dps more
to other people's points, it's not even close to a balanced system when a class that purely has one single purpose in the game is only marginally better than one that can fill multiple roles, even in a pinch and knowingly not to their maximum potential extent.
relying on skill to extend an extremely small window isn't really a valid argument, particularly with the miniscule percentages we're talking about. i mean, a 5% difference could be attributed to lag or an unlucky roll of the RNG that gets you nailed by a boss (e.g. vashj knocking back your casts).
whoopty friggin' do - i can ice block...
but a pally can bubble, heal, dps more...or switch to healing if a necessary healer goes down; they may not do it as well as if they were specced for it, but the fact is - they can do it. i can bandage. go me.
a druid can pop out, heal, dps more
a shaman can...well, oh no, they interrupt their spell cycle to land a heal...dps more
to other people's points, it's not even close to a balanced system when a class that purely has one single purpose in the game is only marginally better than one that can fill multiple roles, even in a pinch and knowingly not to their maximum potential extent.
relying on skill to extend an extremely small window isn't really a valid argument, particularly with the miniscule percentages we're talking about. i mean, a 5% difference could be attributed to lag or an unlucky roll of the RNG that gets you nailed by a boss (e.g. vashj knocking back your casts).
Odale
Active Member
Well said Nevi.
Plankeye
New Member
When did Redeemed General become the WoW Blizzard General forums?
Exo-Slayer
Moderator
Looks like blizzard thought Pallies were a little over the top too. Some changes according to MMO Champ.
Skills
Holy
* Seal of Wisdom now deal [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 1 ] holy damage when unleashed. (Down from [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 1 ] Holy damage)
* Seal of Light now has a chance to heal for [ 15% of AP + 15% of Spell Power ]. (Down from [ 28% of AP + 28% of Spell Power ])
* Seal of Light now deals [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 1 ] (down from [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 1 ]) holy damage when unleashed.
* Seal of Righteousness now grants each melee attack [ 2.2% of Melee Weapon Speed * AP + 4.4% of Melee Weapon Speed * Spell Power ] additional Holy damage. (Down from [ 2.8% of Melee Weapon Speed * AP + 5.5% of Melee Weapon Speed * Spell Power ])
Protection
* Seal of Justice now deals [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 1 ] holy damage when unleashed. (Down from [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 1 ])
Retribution
* Judgement of Command Holy damage reduced from 56% to 45%.
* Blessing of Might (Rank 8 ) and Greater Blessing of Might (Rank 3) now increase AP by 306. (Up from 305)
* Seal of Corruption now deals [ 15% of AP + 8.8% of Spell Power ] additional holy damage over 15 seconds. (Down from [ 19.2% of AP + 9.6% of Spell Power ])
* Seal of Corruption now deals [ 14% of AP + 22% of Spell Power + 1 ] Holy damage. (Down from [ 17.5% of AP + 28% of Spell Power + 1 ])
* Seal of the Martyr now make all your melee attacks deal [ 22% of mw ] to [ 22% of MW ]. (Down from [ 28% of mw ] to [ 28% of MW ])
* Seal of the Martyr now deals [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 36% of mw ] to [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 36% of MW ] Holy Damage when unleashed. (Old - [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 25% of mw ] to [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 25% of MW ] Holy damage)
* Seal of Blood now make all your melee attacks deal [ 22% of mw ] to [ 22% of MW ]. (Down from [ 28% of mw ] to [ 28% of MW ])
* Seal of Blood now deals [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 36% of mw ] to [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 36% of MW ] Holy Damage when unleashed. (Old - [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 25% of mw ] to [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 25% of MW ] Holy damage)
* Seal of Vengeance now deals [ 15% of AP + 8.8% of Spell Power ] additional Holy damage over 15 sec. (Down from [ 19.2% of AP + 9.6% of Spell Power ])
* Seal of Vengeance now deals [ 14% of AP + 22% of Spell Power + 1 ] Holy damage. (Down from [ 17.5% of AP + 28% of Spell Power + 1 ])
* Judgement of Wisdom now restores 1% of the attacker's maximum mana. (Down from 2%)
* Judgement of Light now has a chance to heal the attacker for [ 10% of AP + 10% of Spell Power ]. (Down from [ 18% of AP + 18% of Spell Power ])
Talents
Retribution
* Divine Storm doesn't deal Holy damage anymore. Now heals up to 3 party or raid members for 25% of the damage caused. (Up from 20%)
* Righteous Vengeance changed to - When your Judgement and Divine Storm spells deal a critical strike, your target will take 8/16/24/32/40% additional damage over 8 sec.
* The Art of War now increases the damage of Judgement, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm by 5/10%. (Old - Increased critical strike damage only, by 10/20%)
* Judgement of the Wise now grants the paladin 15% of his base mana. (Down from 33%)
* Seal of Command now deals [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 24% of mw ] to [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 24% of MW ] Holy damage. (Down from [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 30% of mw ] to [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 30% of MW ])
Skills
Holy
* Seal of Wisdom now deal [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 1 ] holy damage when unleashed. (Down from [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 1 ] Holy damage)
* Seal of Light now has a chance to heal for [ 15% of AP + 15% of Spell Power ]. (Down from [ 28% of AP + 28% of Spell Power ])
* Seal of Light now deals [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 1 ] (down from [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 1 ]) holy damage when unleashed.
* Seal of Righteousness now grants each melee attack [ 2.2% of Melee Weapon Speed * AP + 4.4% of Melee Weapon Speed * Spell Power ] additional Holy damage. (Down from [ 2.8% of Melee Weapon Speed * AP + 5.5% of Melee Weapon Speed * Spell Power ])
Protection
* Seal of Justice now deals [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 1 ] holy damage when unleashed. (Down from [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 1 ])
Retribution
* Judgement of Command Holy damage reduced from 56% to 45%.
* Blessing of Might (Rank 8 ) and Greater Blessing of Might (Rank 3) now increase AP by 306. (Up from 305)
* Seal of Corruption now deals [ 15% of AP + 8.8% of Spell Power ] additional holy damage over 15 seconds. (Down from [ 19.2% of AP + 9.6% of Spell Power ])
* Seal of Corruption now deals [ 14% of AP + 22% of Spell Power + 1 ] Holy damage. (Down from [ 17.5% of AP + 28% of Spell Power + 1 ])
* Seal of the Martyr now make all your melee attacks deal [ 22% of mw ] to [ 22% of MW ]. (Down from [ 28% of mw ] to [ 28% of MW ])
* Seal of the Martyr now deals [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 36% of mw ] to [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 36% of MW ] Holy Damage when unleashed. (Old - [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 25% of mw ] to [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 25% of MW ] Holy damage)
* Seal of Blood now make all your melee attacks deal [ 22% of mw ] to [ 22% of MW ]. (Down from [ 28% of mw ] to [ 28% of MW ])
* Seal of Blood now deals [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 36% of mw ] to [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 36% of MW ] Holy Damage when unleashed. (Old - [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 25% of mw ] to [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 25% of MW ] Holy damage)
* Seal of Vengeance now deals [ 15% of AP + 8.8% of Spell Power ] additional Holy damage over 15 sec. (Down from [ 19.2% of AP + 9.6% of Spell Power ])
* Seal of Vengeance now deals [ 14% of AP + 22% of Spell Power + 1 ] Holy damage. (Down from [ 17.5% of AP + 28% of Spell Power + 1 ])
* Judgement of Wisdom now restores 1% of the attacker's maximum mana. (Down from 2%)
* Judgement of Light now has a chance to heal the attacker for [ 10% of AP + 10% of Spell Power ]. (Down from [ 18% of AP + 18% of Spell Power ])
Talents
Retribution
* Divine Storm doesn't deal Holy damage anymore. Now heals up to 3 party or raid members for 25% of the damage caused. (Up from 20%)
* Righteous Vengeance changed to - When your Judgement and Divine Storm spells deal a critical strike, your target will take 8/16/24/32/40% additional damage over 8 sec.
* The Art of War now increases the damage of Judgement, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm by 5/10%. (Old - Increased critical strike damage only, by 10/20%)
* Judgement of the Wise now grants the paladin 15% of his base mana. (Down from 33%)
* Seal of Command now deals [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 24% of mw ] to [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 24% of MW ] Holy damage. (Down from [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 30% of mw ] to [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 30% of MW ])
Avesther
New Member
Its funny, the old way was on PTR and beta for how long and now they decide to nurf it. Not sure if this is into oblivion, but Blizzard doesn't do anything half way.
Exo-Slayer
Moderator
I don't know a great deal about Pally mechanics but they may have gone a little overboard. Though it’s not all nerfs like Righteous Vengeance is a PVE buff it use to be 25% crit damage now its 40% over 8 seconds like mage ignite which is a PVP burst damage nerf but an overall increase in damage. And what would you do without that extra 1 AP from Blessing of Might?