Please explain why gay marriages are wrong.

[4t0p]

Quote[/b] (Que Pasa @ Dec. 10 2003,9:32)]Lets say that homosexuality is not binary, throwing out the either you are or you aren't argument. Lets say that there are several gene combinations that contribute to a propensity for homosexuality. This is also evidenced by bi-sexuality, they're half homosexual, half heterosexual.

Now that's thinking Que and that's just dangerous

Just another thing to consider is an idea the Catholic Church had ... in the mid 90s the Pope in a speech said something to the effect of "the act of homosexuality is sinful however thoughts about it are not", meaning that those who consider the actions don't actually become sinners until they commit the action [giving into temptation if you will]. So you must then define homosexuality, does the scope of homosexuality limit to those who do enter into homosexual encounters or does it also encompass those who have thought about it but never just to act upon their desires but also chose to remain unmarried due to their lack of interest in the opposite sex?

That by the way is meant to show that other people besides me have had that thought NOT to declare open season on the Catholic Church as has happened here previously.

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]"in the mid 90s the Pope in a speech said something to the effect of "the act of homosexuality is sinful however thoughts about it are not"

And that is why the pope is not Jesus, because that is not what Jesus said. I believe sin starts with a thought. Thoughts become words, words become actions. We are called not to dwell on the ways of the world but on the Lord. If our thoughts are on the Lord and not sin, then our words and actions will glorify the Lord.

 

[Vanaze]

***Just before I post this, I'll tell you all that it's late and I just skimmed over and saw a couple things I wanted to comment on. My apologies beforehand if I restate anything that has already been said.***


My own personal belief is that since humans are naturally sinful, though it may seem bizarre, I think humans seek out sin. People ruled by the flesh seek out fleshly sins. Humans also have a side directly influenced by God, which gives them the ability to resist sins.

From the viewpoint that those previous statements are true, the fact that humans have the ability to control sinful impulses means that anyone with any unnatural (unnatrual being homosexuality, bi-sexuality, la la yada yada) wants or feelings have the ability to control them and keep them from taking over their lives.

I think this also ties in with the whole freewill debate,since people have the right to choose, but please, no one delve into that topic on this particular thread, PLEASE...I was just saying...-_-


But yea, point being...Humans CAN control what they do, no matter WHAT they say. Someone can say, "but God made me that way." Well, if that's true, then everyone on earth who says that and believes that could get away with anything. "God made me a murderer." "God made me love animals in a sexual manner." And yes, before anyone gets too excited about that last quote, someone told me that before, and the normally practiced beastiality. That would tick off some animal right activists, and people would listen to them. So why is it when a Christian stands up and says, "Yo, that offends me in a major kind of way, I think it's wrong," that people are allowed to just stand by and say, "Oh well."

To anyone who lives a homosexual lifestyle, and is a Christian, I challenge them to pray to God, view scripture (where it PLAINLY states that homosexuality is unnatural), and treat homosexuality as a sin, thus abstaining from it.

Okay, i'm done. I think I might actually go to sleep now.


Van

 

[LionOfJudah]

Quote[/b] (Spyro Chan @ Dec. 10 2003,1:11)]Well I'm sorry if plain English isn't good enough for you.
What I'm stating is man is going under an evolutionary change at this very moment, its been viewed
and documented.
In the Bible, it states that man was not created immediatly after creation(14 Billion years ago the unvirse was created, 4.5 Billion years ago Earth was created.), surely God create base creatures that over the years evolved into a creatures suitable for man, at that point Adam and Eve were created.
As we all know the store of Abel and Cain(Oops wrong name), that Cain slew his brother and God told him to go into the land of Nod(Which I assume is modern Europe). In the land of Nod he started his own nation,
obviously he had to have found people there to do so. I believe that these people are ones that came before Homosapiens, just like us but less advanced and soulless.
And I as I stated CCGR I believe Homosexuality is a gene mutation, just like red hair. Now you can choose not to have red hair and dye it, but no matter what its still their but you don't say you have red hair, do you get my point?
Simply because the gene mutation that sparks homosexuality is there, doesn't mean you have to so, if you do act upon then you fall into the sin of homosexuality.

so basicly you take in all the evolution garbage that they teach you in school and believe in it, instead of taking what the teach you and testing it, to see if it is true. if you did any real research and got in dept studies on evolution you would realize that most sciencist debunk others arguments for it, with their own arguments, and most of these "skeltons" that they have found are mostly bits and peices from 20-50 different skeltons that they put to gether. most famous case is Lucy in the German musem, the most "complete" ancient skelton we have, made up of bones from over 20 different dig sights, in 3 different countries.

As for your red hair remark i take great offense to that because i am a red head, and i think that you are being discrimitive towards me and just about every other red head in this world, what do you not like the fact that we are not all blond hair blued eyed?

 

[4t0p]

Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Dec. 11 2003,7:28)]so basicly you take in all the evolution garbage that they teach you in school and believe in it, instead of taking what the teach you and testing it, to see if it is true. if you did any real research and got in dept studies on evolution you would realize that most sciencist debunk others arguments for it, with their own arguments,

As far as I know Evolution is still the #1 theorey for how we got here now ... the theorey was presented in my pariocial high school several years ago and our teacher raised the question does being created in God's image mean physical or otherwise? b/c if it's not physical then we could have evolved =o ... but thats a different thread all together

 

[Eon]

Firstly - anybody who is willing to accept the "scientific" evidence for creationism needs to climb the Hel down from their high horse about the proof for evolution. As if a theory that maps the change of an organism over millions of years can be PROVED in the short amount of time we've had to do so! That's why you have the THEORY of evolution and, say, the LAWS of Thermodynamics. Science reaches constantly beyond the current boundaries of our knowledge - because it does that, and because pride and greed affect every human endeavour, including (especially?) religion, you will have errors and frauds. The scientific model is devised to find and eradicate these errors, frauds, oversights and incomplete data models. It does a pretty fair job.

Secondly, Spyro Chan is upset. Didn't any of you spot this? To me this is an intellectual debate in sociology - to Spyro Chan, this is you dissing his father. Given the Commandment to honour your parents, I would have thought you'd be more accepting of that, and given more space for Spyro to cool down gracefully.

Thirdly, Homosexuality is NOT a simple case of lifestyle choice in most cases. There are issues of chemical imbalances, Childhood trauma, cases where someone's sexuality is indeterminate, or where Men are born as Women and vice versa. This is way, way more complex than someone preferring blondes, or choosing a stable relationship over one-night stands. These men do NOT find women attractive, and they DO find other men attractive - what the Hel are they SUPPOSED to do? Homosexual relationships that are between two consenting adults may be sinful in the eyes of your religion - but there is a big difference between religious law and secular law. Should you be able to ban them from your church - I believe so. Should you be able to have them banned from your golf course or Supermarket? No.

Spyro Chan's comment about Red Head's was in no way an insult, although I did find it unclear - probably because it was posted during a time of heightened emotion. However, I was able to get the gist of it, and with a little application, so should everyone else. Failing that, Spyro, it would help if you rewrote it with a clearer mind.

Oh, and play nice Children....

 

[Spyro Chan]

Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Dec. 11 2003,7:28)]

Quote[/b] (Spyro Chan @ Dec. 10 2003,1:11)]Well I'm sorry if plain English isn't good enough for you.
What I'm stating is man is going under an evolutionary change at this very moment, its been viewed
and documented.
In the Bible, it states that man was not created immediatly after creation(14 Billion years ago the unvirse was created, 4.5 Billion years ago Earth was created.), surely God create base creatures that over the years evolved into a creatures suitable for man, at that point Adam and Eve were created.
As we all know the store of Abel and Cain(Oops wrong name), that Cain slew his brother and God told him to go into the land of Nod(Which I assume is modern Europe). In the land of Nod he started his own nation,
obviously he had to have found people there to do so. I believe that these people are ones that came before Homosapiens, just like us but less advanced and soulless.
And I as I stated CCGR I believe Homosexuality is a gene mutation, just like red hair. Now you can choose not to have red hair and dye it, but no matter what its still their but you don't say you have red hair, do you get my point?
Simply because the gene mutation that sparks homosexuality is there, doesn't mean you have to so, if you do act upon then you fall into the sin of homosexuality.

so basicly you take in all the evolution garbage that they teach you in school and believe in it, instead of taking what the teach you and testing it, to see if it is true. if you did any real research and got in dept studies on evolution you would realize that most sciencist debunk others arguments for it, with their own arguments, and most of these "skeltons" that they have found are mostly bits and peices from 20-50 different skeltons that they put to gether. most famous case is Lucy in the German musem, the most "complete" ancient skelton we have, made up of bones from over 20 different dig sights, in 3 different countries.  

As for your red hair remark i take great offense to that because i am a red head, and i think that you are being discrimitive towards me and just about every other red head in this world, what do you not like the fact that we are not all blond hair blued eyed?

Don't make assumptions about people,
I go to a Christian School thank you.
And Denying science is like denying gravity, its there
but I refuse to believe in it so I'll pretend it doesn't exist and float on the roof of my house.
I'm not saying that human _specific_ evolution occurs,
I say God created man flat out 100,000 years ago,
but other creatures have shown the ability to evolve.
I think your getting Darwin Evolution confused with plain evolution.

 

[Avesther]

I am going to touch on a few points:

1.  Atheists getting married in Christian churchs, I am against that.  And that is a no brainer.  Marriage in a Christian church is before and on authority of God first, state second.  Atheists don't believe in or on the authority of God.  Really, how can that marriage be anything more then a sham?  Shame on you ministers who preform these marriages.

2.  The world will seek the desires of the flesh.  Even more so as we close in on the day of Lords second coming.  We should definatly call a spade a spade.  A nation that makes legal or acceptable sin in law, does not serve the Christian God.  That nation will be judged harshly when the nations are judged.

3.  We should fight hard to keep our church "pure" before Christ Jesus.  Those in headship in our churchs will be held accountable to higher degree then the rest of the flock.  And a minister who is a practicing homosexual will get his own in the end.  And a minister that marries same sex individuals before God will also be awarded their full measure.  And a congregation that does not stand against such active sin in their church and headship will also be awarded their full measure.

Although the current turning to sin is muchly prophesized in Gods word, we should still take a stand against the sin.  Not as condemnation, for we can not condemn people.  Rather, I speak against sin as a warning.  Some will heed the warning, others will not and still others will spit on it.

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]And Denying science is like denying gravity, its therebut I refuse to believe in it so I'll pretend it doesn't exist and float on the roof of my house.

God is not limited to mans knowledge and/or understanding of science.  And as Peter walked out of the boat on top of the water to Jesus, he proved beyond doubt, that neither is man.

 

[LionOfJudah]

What you are getting confused Spyro is that Micro Evolution does occur, most people will call that Adaption, if you dont believe that exists then get out from under your rock. but Macro Evolution, the evolution of a lizzard- to a bird, is unfounded.

 

[Grand Master]

Quote[/b] ]but Macro Evolution, the evolution of a lizzard- to a bird, is unfounded.

Well then it's a good thing that scientists don't claim that. Evolution is about many small changes leading up to big ones over time, and those changes can go in different directions leading to several new species eventually being formed from a single common ancestor.
Lion, can I ask you what college you go to? Is it a Christian college?

 

[Avesther]

Small changes don't add up to a hill of beans.  Like as been mentioned over and over, the Fruit fly cycle can be increased to the point where you can go through thousands of generations in a short period of time.  Although you find that the new group is sexually incompatable with the parent group, they don't turn into a bird.  They are still fruit flys in the end.  Not all canines are sexually compatable, not all felines.

 

[Grand Master]

And what kinds of selection pressures do you think are acting against flies in a laboratory, exactly? There is no reason you would see them change significantly.

 

[Avesther]

We see adaptation in the world all the time. You don't see short haired dogs living wild in the Arctic. Does that mean short haired dogs are any less canine then the long haird dogs to do survive the arctic weather. Again, changes and differences in climate or ones surroundings does not change dogs into seals. Even given enough time, an Alaskan Malumute will not become a polar bear or equivalent. It simply stays a canine with less and less short haired genes being passed into the next generation.

 

[Big J]

Quote[/b] (Kidan @ Dec. 10 2003,2:39)]so are you saying that you would not have been raised better with your father around?

I for one would have been much better off with my father not in the picture. I mean, unless you think that being constantly berated and beaten is a good thing.

Look, I won't disagree that the ideal situation is having loving parents. Why stop with 2? Many of the patriarchs in the Bible had 2 or more wives/concubines.

I mean, if you want to go with a biblical view of marriage...why not move for polygamy?

As for getting rid of "no fault" divorce...fine. a couple wants to divorce, then they just go out and "cheat" on the other.

As for evolution...I'm not going there. Except to make one comment that it is not possible for you to count to a quadrillion, yet I doubt that you would deny its existance. (small changes adding up to a huge change. And no, I have no interest in debating this.)

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]As for evolution...I'm not going there. Except to make one comment that it is not possible for you to count to a quadrillion, yet I doubt that you would deny its existance. (small changes adding up to a huge change. And no, I have no interest in debating this.)

Then you won't mind me saying, point not taken?

 

[Spyro Chan]

Yes, Lion, I'm referring to the more common theory now of Evolution being adpation on a much wider scale.

 

[Eon]

Evolution is, ironically enough, about to be superceded by Genetic Engineering, so I wonder if we'll EVER know enough about it to create laws.

Peon - lab tests cannot provide the proper variances and scope to prove OR disprove the wider theory of evolution. Adaptation is the only thing small enough to measure - however I believe that Evolution fits the available facts better than the desperate scrabblings of Creationism.

 

[rizz]

At the end of the day neither has been put to the test. SO whatever you believe in (evolution or creation) is just an opinion. And thats shown by the split in the scientific community between the two. Obviously you know which one i go for..lol..

I havent read all this thread but wasnt about gay marriage? which is so wrong im not even gonna start on it..lol

 

[rizz]

Actually i think im becoming a string theorist...it sounds very interesting and i want to be the man who creates the unified theory...

place your bets odds are currently at 1 gazillion to 1