Physical, Incontrovertible Proof of God

[Genesis1315]

Wasn't I the one who brought up the parent issue?

Yes, I do believe you were

The first thing Cain says, is what? A LIE. Again, that implies a relationship because he wasn't scared to lie to God.

Or it implies that he had not met God and did not know the true nature of God

Faith = Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Gen

 

[James]

Would you mind defining "false Christian"?

A false Christian is someone who claims to be a Christian, but doesn't actually show Christ oo the fruits of the Spirit in their life. There are many false Christians in the world today.

How do you know what is a "right" source and what's a "wrong" source. If you are being guided by the Holy Spirit, why would you use a "wrong" source?

For the same reason I didn't give a complete answer when speaking about God writing the Bible. Sometimes people get in a hurry and don't stop to completely listen to the Holy Spirit. You've just been given a prime example of that when I made that mistake. It was my error that I wasn't completely "in-tune" with the Spirit and I had to apologize for it later because it ended up causing more confusion. No-one is perfect.

AGREED! But I have found that very few actually do that.

Sad but true. I'm glad we can agree.

Why?

The KJV keeps the most of the original meanings from the Biblical texts while still making it readable to English speaking people. The ESV is the "easiest" to read on the surface but misses more of the original meanings. A good example of what I mean would be this... Take these two examples of 2nd Timothy 2:15 ...

King James Version
Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)

English Standard Version
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
(2 Timothy 2:15)

So you can see the ESV does away with the "thee's" and "thou's" but has the potential to miss the original meaning by a wider margin. So it is a trade-off between an easier to read version that requires more leg-work. Or a version that requires less research but is filled with old-English.

Casual readers tend to gravitate toward ESV while people who want a more accurate translation lean toward the KJV. NIV is in the middle of the two.

Sadly though because most people don't do the research required, this leads to some of the confusion and misunderstanding that is so common today.

 

[Dark Virtue]

And who sets the filter? The individual. It is still up to the individual to define for themselves what they feel is incontrovertible.

The state of being incontrovertible is not subjective.

You may BELIEVE your evidence is incontrovertible, but that doesn't make it so.

Again, what is the definition of incontrovertible?

not open to question, INDISPUTABLE

If it's not open to question, then it can be TESTED. You can't test or examine subjective evidence.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Or it implies that he had not met God and did not know the true nature of God

Faith = Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Gen

How could Cain and Abel have NOT met God or had any proof of his existence?

Why would God distance himself from them, only to appear the first time they made a mistake?

The Bible doesn't say God interacted with Adam and Eve before Eve screwed up either, but don't you think he DID?

Gen, "faith" occurs 247 times in 231 verses and is translated SIX different ways. You can't use that one definition for every occurance in the Bible. Check out www.blueletterbible.com

 

[Dark Virtue]

A false Christian is someone who claims to be a Christian, but doesn't actually show Christ oo the fruits of the Spirit in their life. There are many false Christians in the world today.

Gotcha. Is it possible that one is a false Christian and doesn't know it?

There seem to be MANY definitions of "false" and "true" Christians.

For the same reason I didn't give a complete answer when speaking about God writing the Bible. Sometimes people get in a hurry and don't stop to completely listen to the Holy Spirit. You've just been given a prime example of that when I made that mistake. It was my error that I wasn't completely "in-tune" with the Spirit and I had to apologize for it later because it ended up causing more confusion. No-one is perfect.

So if it's possible to make a mistake, how do you know when you've made one?

Sad but true. I'm glad we can agree.

It happens

The KJV keeps the most of the original meanings from the Biblical texts while still making it readable to English speaking people. The ESV is the "easiest" to read on the surface but misses more of the original meanings. A good example of what I mean would be this... Take these two examples of 2nd Timothy 2:15 ...

King James Version
Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)

English Standard Version
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
(2 Timothy 2:15)

So you can see the ESV does away with the "thee's" and "thou's" but has the potential to miss the original meaning by a wider margin. So it is a trade-off between an easier to read version that requires more leg-work. Or a version that requires less research but is filled with old-English.

Casual readers tend to gravitate toward ESV while people who want a more accurate translation lean toward the KJV. NIV is in the middle of the two.

Sadly though because most people don't do the research required, this leads to some of the confusion and misunderstanding that is so common today.

Why is there ANY research required? I thought the Bible was supposed to be EASY to understand. If you REALLY wanted to understand the Bible as accurately as possible, why don't you learn Greek and Aramaic?

 

[James]

Gotcha. Is it possible that one is a false Christian and doesn't know it?

Yes. Most false Christians don't realize they are false. They are under the mistaken impression that once they walk down the isle and pray a prayer that they then have a free license to go on sinning like crazy and make to real changes in their lifestyle and have a "get out of hell free" card, and that is a very dangerous misconception.

I blame churches for that. I have heard many stories from people who tell me that after they answered a call to salvation at a church that they were then simply sent on their way with no further guidance. and that thought makes me sick inside.

There seem to be MANY definitions of "false" and "true" Christians.

Perhaps... Although I haven't encountered any other definitions. I can assure you that the one I gave is corret because it is explained in the Bible.

So if it's possible to make a mistake, how do you know when you've made one?

I realized when I made a mistake. It's never hard to realize when you've made a mistake in anything because it always comes back at you later.

I thought the Bible was supposed to be EASY to understand.

Some parts of it are, some aren't... but we are able to understand all of it. The only thing required is some patience and perseverence; both of which are admirable qualities.

 

[Weazel]

I missed most of the conversation since it's 11 pages long, but here's what I have to say.

God has already proved Himself to me. No, it's not something purely concrete such as my computer, my house, or any of the people around me. But God is there, and He reveals Himself. I could go on an on about my own personal experiences, but I doubt it would be the "proof" you are looking for.

Several things I must mention though. Why does God owe anything to any of us to just plop down and say, "Here am I!", especially when we've already rejected Him? And even if God does do that, guess what? We still will reject God. Not only doesn't it happen continuously in the Bible, but it happens all the time nowadays too. It's only with God's grace that any of us are Christians at all.

When I talk to other Christians, the strongest proof that they give is the suffering that the Apostles went through after Jesus's death. Why would they go through that much pain if they had any doubt at all that Jesus is the Son of God?

The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven.
He replied, "When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away. - Matthew 16:1-4

 

[James]

Very well put.